I see that you would be more then Half way to that 18 win but not even close to that mil . Just a thought .
Lately I have seen some players walk up to table and put up hundreds across and after just 2 or 3 wins say off then after 2 more rolls take them down and leave . I don’t know what the odds are to get by 3 rolls on a system like this is .
Also don’t know how they would be rated since they bet big but not for long .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Loucifer,

I would would not increase the line bet until I have increased the odds to at least 5X, or the maximum that I could take if under 5X. The rationale is to lower the house edge via the odds before adding to the line bet.

NFF

Loucifer I am not a big player that is for sure . Now you said that you would and odds at 5xs which in your example it would be like .
Win # 1 25 .
Win #2 25 for 50 in rack . Do you have odds working on this bet or before ?
Win #3 25 unless you have odds .
Win # 4 you said press to 50 so odds would go up to 250 .
Hope you get passed this point .
Now can you see that it will depend on how you do with the odds part a lot since you win more but also can loose a lot . It is hard to get out of big holes if you start out to much of your money .
I had a roll one time that I rolled 17 rolls before establishing a point but that vary unusual . Then rolled a 6 for point and next roll was 7 OUT .
Since you said that you are happy with a 5.00 or 10.00 win then I would take that first win and use it for odds or a come bet with odds and try not to take money out of rack that I started with . As far as your 5.00 tip for the dealers on your 3RD win I would try to get them in the game on my first roll with a one dollar line bet for them . Ilike to put up a 6.00 line bet for myself so on win I can put their line bet back with out taking from rack . What do they do with that 5.00 tip . Were I play they some times put it on the line or on the point and some times they just lock it up . Ithink it depends on the pit boss that is working at the time .They know what they can get away with and with hoom .Also how the dice have been at the table . Some like to gamble too . JUST saying . 😀 🙂
Good Rolling.

Finisher,

I am not trying to win a million on the craps table. I am just trying to win a 1,000. I have spent 14 years working on my toss and I am not about to get banned or get on the casino’s radar. My dad always told me that pigs get feed, hogs get slaughtered.

NFF, thank you for taking the time to post. I know this runs counter to what a lot of people think on this site and I am not looking to start a big controversy, but I do not like to take odds.

In fact, I feel as though "free odds" is one of the worst bets in the casino!!!

I can get all the numbers if you like but this is the gist of it.

The only advantages of the pass line are:

1) Seven and Eleven win on the come out (+33% edge)

2) You get to shoot the Dice.

In other words the pass line is a horrible bet if you are not shooting, or shooting for the seven on the come out as a controlled shooter.

The -1.41 edge on the pass line is a blended average between the come out (+33%) and the point cycle negative edges.

For a 6 or 8 the edge is -9%, for 5 or 9 -20%, and for 4 or 10 -33%.

Guess when you are putting your odds money up? On the point cycle, when you are already facing a steep negative edge. That’s why they dont need an edge on the odds because they were already in the cat birds seat.

Likewise, laying odds on the Dont pass actually waters down your positive edge on that bet.

The reason in both cases is because you are exposing more of your bankroll. The casino’s goal is to get you to chew through your bankroll as quickly as possible since they have more money than you and they can simply out last you.

Lastly, if a controller shooter does not shoot for the seven on the come out, you are better off placing the point. This is because they are not utilizing the advance of the pass line, the easy money of come out winners.

Let’s say the controlled shooter shoots a 5 for a point on a $10 table.

The pass line better has $10 on the line and $20 in odds.

The place better places the point for $30.

The shooter hits the 5, hooray!

The pass line gets paid $10 and the odds get paid $30, a nice $40 win.

However, the place better wins $42.

Both risked $30, however the place better won $2 more dollars.

So in closing I feel as though if a shooter is not going after the seven on the come out, then there is no business playing the pass line on them.

Thanks for reading!

Sincerely,
Lou

OH MY GOD Lou!

You are so wrong! I don’t have the time to post all the reasons why – please take a refresher – but I will say this
We can argue politics and religion, but we can never argue MATH ,- 2 + 2 will always equal 4! The math is there and if you really want to start to win, forget about all those crazy sets – (what you mentioned on your post about the ladies when you wanted to make a point of 4), and become a come bettor and TAKE ODDS!

I love you brother, you and your whole gang in Cleveland, but man you got to get back to the GTC way!

Dom

Dom you had me real WORRIED I know we are both getting up in age and some times we forget what we may have read . I read the part about the ladies and had no clue about what you were talking about . So I reread this post 2 more times and I could not find what you were talking about so I Think it must be from another of his posts and you have a good memory . Just saying I did get a little worried at first . I know that you read a LOT of posts so they can get mixed up a bit . 😀
I to do not take Full odds all the time do to little BR that I give myself .
The most that I usually have at risk on my roll out of my rack is 41 .00 . It all depends on how I feel . Some may say that is odd amount . It is across with a 6.00 pass line bet and 1.00 on the hard 4 and 10 . With 5.00 odds . Would be less if point is different .
I think 18 wins in a row is hard to get for that mil . try tho .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Loucifer Do you ever bet on the 7 with 3.00 since that is what you are shooting for on the come out ?
I to am looking for that first 1,000.00 win . Were I play that would be 10 blacks since that is their high chip that they have unless they know that a big guy is around . I have seen them get a rack for some players so they can carry their chips to the cage .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Dom got to post about lady . RELEAF touch my inner thoughts to say no blue thing . 😀 🙂
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Confusing and mixed-up posts.
And enjoying this. 🙄

How do I reply to thee? Let me count the ways.

You minimize the +33% edge you have on the come out roll with a pass line wager. But you make a big deal out of the -9%, -20% and -33% edge you face once into the point cycle. You need to look at the wager as a whole, not just emphasize the negative and minimize the positive.

It’s like saying you will have some great views of the city if you jump off the top of the Empire State Building and just ignore the last nanosecond in your trip.

You also imply you are facing those edges on your odds wager. That is patently false. With your odds wager, you get paid 20% more than you bet on the 6 or 8, 50% more on the 5 or 9 and 100% more on the 4 or 10. The net result is you are facing a 0% edge on the odds wager. You are only facing the edges you mentioned on the flat portion of your pass line wager with odds. Since you are only facing those edges 2/3 of the time during the point cycle, the other 1/3 you have a +33% edge on the come out, you only need to overcome a -1.41% edge on the flat bet. The fact that you have to overcome an edge to win the odds bet is irrelevant because the true odds they pay you makes up for that difference.

You also imply you always get paid more for place bets than line bets with odds when you compare a $10 wager on the 5 with double odds. This also is patently false. It is only true for certain odds, not all. Let’s take a look at what happens with 5X odds instead of 2X odds.

Let’s say the controlled shooter shoots a 5 for a point on a $10 table.

The pass line bettor has $10 on the line and $50 in odds.

The place bettor places the point for $60.

The shooter hits the 5, hooray!

The pass line gets paid $10 and the odds get paid $75, a nice $85 win.

However, the place bettor wins $84.

Both risked $60, however the pass line bettor won $1 more dollar.

So in closing simply follow Dom’s advice, "become a come bettor and TAKE ODDS!"

Thank you Skinny!

For those of you that could find where the I mention about a crazy set in the ladies post – here is the line:

"I just smiled at her, but inside I was boiling mad. I switched to my parallel 3’s set (5-2’s on axis). This set gives me two chances at hitting a 3-1."

Lastly to Lou – Lou I love you brother – please don’t take offense to what I said. All I ever want to make everyone on this to make as much money as they can in this game. I love your posts because the stimulate conversation. Please don’t stop posting

Dom

"Skinny" wrote: With your odds wager, you get paid 20% more than you bet on the 6 or 8, 40% more on the 5 or 9 and 100% more on the 4 or 10.

Skinny,
Should that be, you get paid 50% more than you bet on the 5 or 9
(odds bet gets paid 3 to 2, a pay of $30 on an odds bet of $20, for example)?
Not the 40% mentioned?

"Skinny" wrote:
Let’s take a look at what happens with 5X odds instead of 2X odds.
.. The pass line gets paid $10 and the odds get paid $75, a nice $85 win.
…However, the place bettor wins $84.

For his 2x odds argument (not the 5x odds you used in the comparison):
doesn’t the pass line get paid $10 and the odds gets paid $30
for a total win of $40 on a total bet of $30,
while the place bettor gets a win of $42 on a bet of $30?
– the place bettor getting $2 more?

My questions may be uninformed and stand to be corrected,
and are not meant to be critical.
I always look forward to and appreciate your answers and posts.

7×7

"SevenTimesSeven" wrote:
Skinny,
Should that be, you get paid 50% more than you bet on the 5 or 9
(odds bet gets paid 3 to 2, a pay of $30 on an odds bet of $20, for example)?
Not the 40% mentioned?

You are right. I edited my post to correct the error.

"SevenTimesSeven" wrote:
For his 2x odds argument (not the 5x odds you used in the comparison):
doesn’t the pass line get paid $10 and the odds gets paid $30
for a total win of $40 on a total bet of $30,
while the place bettor gets a win of $42 on a bet of $30?
– the place bettor getting $2 more?
7×7

I guess, I was unclear with what I said here. I was saying that it is not always true that place bets pay more than line bets with odds. I was not disagreeing that it does so for 2X odds. I edited my statement there as well to make it more clear.

Two quick questions since I dont have time to give a proper reply tonight.

1) When is the Free odds bet placed, during the come out cycle or during the point cycle?

2) Is the controlled shooter that you are placing a come bet on actively avoiding the seven during the point cycle?

"Loucifer" wrote: Two quick questions since I dont have time to give a proper reply tonight.

1) When is the Free odds bet placed, during the come out cycle or during the point cycle?

2) Is the controlled shooter that you are placing a come bet on actively avoiding the seven during the point cycle?

1) During the point cycle. You put free odds behind your line bet after a point is established.

2) All controlled shooters who bet the pass line (not those betting the don’t) are trying to avoid the seven during the point cycle.

Your questions lead me to believe you do not know what is meant by these two terms.

The come out cycle is when the shooter has not established a point and is attempting to establish a point number.

The point cycle is when the shooter is throwing after establishing his point.

When a new shooter first gets the dice he is starting a come out cycle. Once a point is established he goes into the point cycle.

If the shooter makes his point in the point cycle, he starts a new come out cycle in order to establish a new point.

I’ve tried to take odds on the come out. They won’t let me, at least at my local casinos. 😆

Sevenout,

Are you saying they won’t let your odds work on existing come bets during a the come out roll right after a point has been made.
Are the flats on the existing come come bets working.

i.e on the following rolls

8 – initial come out
9 – come bet, took $10 odds.
8 -Initial come out bet Point made
7 – Come out (win come out bet) lose flat bet on 9 and the 8 from the previous rolls
$10 odds from the 9 come bet are returned to you.

The above is the normal for a person making come bets, but you are saying they won’t let you work the come bet odds if I understand you right.

I’ve never played where I could’n’t work the odds if I wanted to.

It’s sort of like the place bets don’t normally work, but can be turned on if you request it.

Noah

Using the example you gave, your last come bet went to the 8 when you made it for your point.

I think what he is saying is they won’t let him put odds on the 8 until he establishes a new point.

They probably do that so they don’t have to do double work if he throws a 7 on the new come out.

They would be putting the odds on the 8 come bet and then have to return them to the shooter if he threw a 7 on the come out.

By not letting him put odds on the come out they only have to put the odds on the 8 after a new point is established. Of course in this situation they are putting the responsibility of remembering to put odds on the 8 on the shooter.

I never came across this although some dealers would tell me I did not have to put odds on the 8 at this point in time. But I would insist that I wanted to put the odds on now so that I did not forget to do it later.

I try to put my odds on the come bet while it is sitting in the come as to give the dealer one turn at putting the whole bet up . Some times I can get it up fast enough and some times not .Some dealers see how I do it and wait just enough so they do the bet all at one time . Others do not care if they have to move the money twice . Other wise if the come bet has been moved I will put the odds on the line between the come and field and say odds on my come bet .
I like to do this since I am hoping that I can make it or the roller will .On the next roll would be great .
So this post is double or everything which is what ?
Are we talking about double till the 18 hit or everything till the 18 hit ?
When should you change your come bet to a bigger amount on a long roll . So far I have never went higher then min. bet on the come bet . With odds from one unite to max.
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Skinny, Fisher:

So it has nothing to do about working the odds on come bets.

Noah

ACPA,

I don’t know what sevenout ran up against. I only gave my interpretation of what I think it might be.

Finisher,

What I am saying is some dealers don’t like to put the odds on the come bet after the point is made because they will only have to return those odds to you if you throw a 7 on the new come out roll. I was not talking about whether they had moved the come bet to the box number or not before getting the odds out there.

In fact, unless you want to work those odds on the come out some dealers don’t understand why you want to put your odds on the come bet early since they don’t have any impact on the come out rolls. They don’t understand the value it is to you as the shooter to get it over with and not have to remember to put them on after a new point is established. Also, the lazy dealers don’t care about making it easy on the shooter, only on making less work for themselves.

I decided to create a new post called The Case for Come Out Seven and never take odds, since I felt as though this post was getting off track.

With this post I was hoping for feedback on how exactly I should double up to reach a $1000 the quickest with still having the potential of locking up a small win early should the wheels fall off during the session.

However Finisher had posted something that I did not want to leave unresolved. In short, I would never use any type of center action hedge to capitalize on come out sevens.

I feel as thought the best play is this:

Use the All-sevens set that avoids 4’s and 10’s (6-1 on axis).
Lay the 4 for $43 ( $1 vig up front then the vig is self sustaining because the extra $2 of the $42 will net a $1 win which will be taken as the next vig netting you a clear $20 win)
Lay the 10 for $43 (same reasoning as above)

This creates a parallel bet for you in the fact that one seven wins you a $10 pass line, $20 Lay 4 and $20 lay 10, for a $50 win on one roll. My personal best is 5 come out winners in a row, however, sadly I did not have this bet set up at the time.

There are 6 ways to win $50 and 3 ways to lose $43 -OR- 3 ways to lose $43. This allows you to leverage more money with the least amount of risk in a parallel betting system, especially if you are good at avoiding establishing a 4 or a 10 for a point.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Lou

ACPA

That was meant to be tongue in cheek. Usually hapoens when a newbie tries to take odd on their PL bet on the come out. Or forgets to pick up theirodds after a PL win.