\nOkay it has benn established that come betting no matte what your edge is better.<\/p>\n
\tMy question is about the bottom line.<\/p>\n
\tSo if I place the six and eight for 30 each my comp value is almost 4 times as much as if I had 2 ten dollar come bets with 20 dollar odds considering almost all places no longer rate odds.<\/p>\n
\tBottom line with the pace bets I will earn around 12 dollars comp value for the hour of play, versus 3 dollars of comp value for the come bets, nine dollars more inn my pocket.<\/p>\n
\tSo over the period of the hour will I lose more than that nine dollars?<\/p>\n
\tNot using the 5 count.<\/p>\n
\tlts say we get 50 rolls in that hour by todays standars that is a lot.<\/p>\n
Posted by:<\/strong> getagrip on November 16, 2017, 12:40 am<\/p>\n \tOK, I could say don’t play for comps but who am I to talk. I am a place bettor on myself and one come bet with single odds on random rollers although I do not bet this way because I am thinking about comps at all.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> Skinny on November 16, 2017, 3:46 am<\/p>\n "brothelman" wrote:<\/strong> Okay it has benn established that come betting no matte what your edge is better.<\/p>\n \tMy question is about the bottom line.<\/p>\n \tSo if I place the six and eight for 30 each my comp value is almost 4 times as much as if I had 2 ten dollar come bets with 20 dollar odds considering almost all places no longer rate odds.<\/p>\n \tBottom line with the pace bets I will earn around 12 dollars comp value for the hour of play, versus 3 dollars of comp value for the come bets, nine dollars more inn my pocket.<\/p>\n \tSo over the period of the hour will I lose more than that nine dollars?<\/p>\n \tNot using the 5 count.<\/p>\n \tlts say we get 50 rolls in that hour by todays standars that is a lot.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n \n\tFirst of all I know you realize that comps are based on a percentage of your expected loss. While the exact formula for comps is a closely guarded secret, I have read that the return is usually between 30% – 50% of your expected loss (theoretical loss).<\/p>\n \tThe expected loss on a RR if you place the 6 and 8 for $30 each is approximately 91 cents. \tWhen you say the comp value for the place bets is almost 4 times as much for the come bets that is because your expected loss for the place bets is almost 4 times as much as for the come bets.<\/p>\n \tBy any standard the 50% return is a most generous comp formula and probably not one that is found in many casinos. But for the sake of demonstrating my point, I will go with the extremely charitable 50% return for comps.<\/p>\n \tWith the place bets you can expect to lose 91 cents with a 45 cent comp value at a 50% return for a net loss of 46 cents. \tYou may be earning 4 times more in comp value but you can expect to have a net loss that is also approximately 4 times greater, 46 cent loss vs. 14 cent loss.<\/p>\n \tUsing your example of $12 in comp value vs. $3 in comp value, let’s look at the full picture under a 50% return and 30% return.<\/p>\n \tWhen you earn $12 in comp value from a 50% return on the place bets, you had an expected loss of $24 which nets out to a $12 loss on the place bets. \tThat is with the generous comp rate of 50%. If the casino only returns 30% of your expected loss the results would be even worse.<\/p>\n \tYou would earn $12 in comp value on the place bets if you had an expected loss of $40 at the 30% return rate for a net loss of $28. \tBy using your example of $12 in comp value vs. $3 in comp value, here is the complete picture: \tYou can not beat the casino at the comp game. They have it all figured out.<\/p>\n \tThat is the Bottom Line Answer<\/u><\/strong><\/span> to your Bottom Line Question.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> Dr Crapology on November 16, 2017, 11:57 am<\/p>\n \tRose and Doc<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> NofieldFive on November 16, 2017, 1:05 pm<\/p>\n \tNFF<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> Dominator on November 16, 2017, 1:41 pm<\/p>\n \tExcellent and thank you!<\/p>\n \tDom<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> JawBones on November 16, 2017, 2:20 pm<\/p>\n \tThanks for being such a big part of this board and for taking the time to provide us all the mathematics of this game we love.<\/p>\n \tB-man, I think that was an excellent question. Gave me a few things to chew on for sure.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> The WoW Man on November 16, 2017, 3:31 pm<\/p>\n \tDoc, when I took my first class, placing the 6 & 8 was acceptable. I favored that bet because you only had to hit either number once to collect. Also way back when, I ran a $30 place bet on the six up to $600 with a pull & press and hit it. I did that twice, first & last. \ud83d\ude0e The past few years I’ve switched to come betting. The math says it all. <\/p>\n \tCatch you later!<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> brothelman on November 17, 2017, 9:28 pm<\/p>\n \tI have an srr of 7 how much can I expect to win off of a 60 eight place bet, also how much can I expect to win off of a come bet 10$ flat and 50 odds with the same srr? in sixty rolls?<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> brothelman on November 17, 2017, 9:33 pm<\/p>\n \tSource of info two separate outside independent hosts hosts<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> Skinny on November 17, 2017, 10:31 pm<\/p>\n "brothelman" wrote:<\/strong> Thank you Skinny now lets take this a step further.<\/p>\n \tI have an srr of 7 how much can I expect to win off of a 60 eight place bet, also how much can I expect to win off of a come bet 10$ flat and 50 odds with the same srr? in sixty rolls?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n \n\tWith an SRR of 7 and a $60 place bet on the eight you would have a positive HA of 8.3333%. Your theoretical win on this wager would be $5.00. In sixty rolls your theoretical win would be $42.86. Posted by:<\/strong> brothelman on November 18, 2017, 1:08 am<\/p>\n \tPlaying a sixty dollar eight for sixty roll or about one hour you will generate about 18 dollars in actual comps,<\/p>\n \tA ten dollar come bet with 50 dollar odds on the eight for 60 rolls would generate 8.40 in actual comps.<\/p>\n \tThe eight has a house advantage of 1.68 if I remember corectly1.68*60=1.008 theo loss times 60 rolls total theo loss60.48 now the hose allows a host to comp up to 30 % of the theo loss that is how I arrived at my figures.<\/p>\n \tPlease remember that there is no house edge on odds so they are not counted into theo any more, well unless the boxman loves you.<\/p>\n \tSo the place bet receives ten dollars more in comps if the host chooses to give it to you.<\/p>\n \tNow remember this is only betting on the controlled shooter who has the srr of 7.<\/p>\n \tWhen I compare these two play I still really love the fact the your positive house edge on the come bet is so much bigger<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> Skinny on November 18, 2017, 1:48 am<\/p>\n \tYou then multiplied by 60 for 60 rolls. But that is actually 60 decisions which is very different from 60 rolls. But I can work with decisions a lot easier than working with rolls. So I will modify my answer based on decisions.<\/p>\n \tWith an SRR of 7 and a $60 place bet on the eight you would have a positive HA of 8.3333%. Your theoretical win on this wager would be $5.00. In 60 decisions your theoretical win would be $300. \tSince it will probably take about the same amount of time for 60 decisions on the place bet as it would on the line bet I think it is fair to use a 60 multiplier to calculate the comp value of each bet.<\/p>\n \tComp value of place bet would be 60 X $0.91 X 30% = 60 X .91 X .3 = $16.38. \tSo the place bet will generate $13.86 more in comp value. But the line bet with odds will generate $41.40 more in wins.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> Skinny on November 18, 2017, 4:28 am<\/p>\n \tThe HA on a place bet on the eight is 0.46% per roll. The theoretical loss on a $60 place bet for 60 rolls would be .0046 X $60 X 60 = $16.56. A 30% comp value would yield $4.97 in comps. \tWith an SRR of 7 it would take approximately 3.5 rolls to resolve a place bet on the eight. In 60 rolls you would get 17.14 decisions on the place bet. Your theoretical win would be 17.14 X $60 X .083333 = $85.71. \tThus on a per roll basis you can expect to earn $4.21 more in comps on the place bet. But the line bet with odds will yield $16.85 more in wins.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n Posted by:<\/strong> Dr Crapology on November 18, 2017, 12:16 pm<\/p>\n Posted by:<\/strong> brothelman on November 18, 2017, 6:20 pm<\/p>\n \tNo matter how hard I have tried to prove that come bets have some form of disadvantage I could not, at every turn you have showed that they are far superior in every aspect of the game.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Okay it has benn established that come betting no matte what your edge is better. My question is about the bottom line. 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\n\tSo, are you playing the $30 six and eight on every person if they make it through the 5 count? Just trying to figure out from your example if you are taking that into account when you are figuring out your comp dollars. I guess if you are first to shoot then maybe they have you in the computer as betting $60 even if you back off on random rollers.<\/p>\n
\n\tThe expected loss on a RR for two $10 come bets with $20 each in odds is approximately 28 cents. <\/p>\n
\n\tWith the come bets you can expect to lose 28 cents with a 14 cent comp value at a 50% return for a net loss of 14 cents.<\/p>\n
\n\tEarning $3 in comp value from a 50% return on the come bets would come from an expected loss of $6 for a net loss of $3 on the come bets.<\/p>\n
\n\tYou would earn $3 in comp value on the come bets if you had an expected loss of $10 at the 30% return rate for a net loss of $7.<\/p>\n
\n\tWith a generous 50% return in comp value you can expect to lose a net of $9 more on place bets than on come bets, $12 net loss vs. $3 net loss.
\n\tWith a more realistic 30% return in comp value you can expect to lose a net of $21 more on place bets than on come bets, $28 net loss vs. $7 net loss.<\/p>\n
\n\tThat is why we should never play for the comps.<\/p>\n
\n\t As Paul Harvey would say ‘ And that’s the rest of the story " <\/p>\n
\n\tWith an SRR of 7 a come bet 10$ flat and 50 odds you would have a positive HA of 9.4907%. Your theoretical win on this wager would be $5.69. In sixty rolls your theoretical win would be $48.81.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n\tThe HA on a line bet is 1.41%. No HA on the odds so they don’t count towards theoretical loss. Thus the theoretical loss on a $10 line bet is .0141 X $10 = $0.14 per decision.<\/p>\n
\n\tWith an SRR of 7 a come bet 10$ flat, 50 odds you would have a positive HA of 9.4907%. Your theoretical win on this wager would be $5.69. In 60 decisions your theoretical win would be $341.40.<\/p>\n
\n\tComp value of line bet would be 60 X $0.14 X 30% = 60 X .14 X .3 = $2.52.<\/p>\n
\n\tThe HA on a line bet is 0.42% per roll. The theoretical loss on a $10 flat with $50 odds for 60 rolls would be .0042 X $10 X 60 = $2.52. A 30% comp value would yield $0.76 in comps.<\/p>\n
\n\tWith an SRR of 7 it would take approximately 3.33 rolls to resolve a line bet. In 60 rolls you would get 18.01 decisions on the line bet. Your theoretical win would be 18.01 X $60 X .094907 = $102.56.<\/p>\n