{"id":8947,"date":"2015-06-19T15:09:10","date_gmt":"2015-06-19T15:09:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/2015\/06\/19\/quick-and-valuable-way-to-track-handrolls-in-practice\/"},"modified":"2015-06-19T15:09:10","modified_gmt":"2015-06-19T15:09:10","slug":"quick-and-valuable-way-to-track-handrolls-in-practice","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/2015\/06\/19\/quick-and-valuable-way-to-track-handrolls-in-practice\/","title":{"rendered":"Quick and valuable way to track hand\/rolls in practice"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><!-- Original Post Content --><br \/>\nI thought of this method of tracking my rolls to watch visually what was happening during a hand in practice.  It doesn&#8217;t require moving chips properly (betting and paying out) but gives very valuable information.  I ALSO TRACK IN ROLL RECORDER, but this a very visual method that barely adds time to rolling.<br \/>\n\tBelow is an actual 45 roll hand I completed (after a very frustrating practice session of short rolls), and I think it shows a lot about what is going on during the hand.  As much as I wanted to remove my craps shots from the picture, I kept it honest and I know they developed late in the hand and I was trying to make adjustments.<\/p>\n<p>\tMethod:<br \/>\n\t &#8211; The currently set point is below the place line, currently the green chip below the right side of the 6.  Other active shots (Come \/ Place) are placed on the place line, Points made are moved to the top place line; inactive shots are in the middle such as a roll that wasn&#8217;t a come bet so isn&#8217;t money at risk is in the middle. <br \/>\n\t &#8211; Shots are placed left for off axis, center for on axis, right for hard ways.  In the picture, for the 6, I had 2 on axis noted on the top because they were won points, 1 off axis shot (red bottom left), and 2 hard ways noted by red and green on lower right.<br \/>\n\t &#8211; C\/E\/7 are kept track of in the field with the 7&#8217;s kept below the 11. <br \/>\n\tWhite chips are used for a non-winning shot, Red chips are used for a hit, Green chips are used for $10 hits\/losses such as a come out hit on an active come bet (4 shown on 4, 5, 2@6), for loss of come for a crap (shown for 1@2, 3@3, 5@12) and for come out 7&#8217;s and Yo&#8217;s, and for the final 7 (shown are 2 Yo&#8217;s, a come out 7, and a final 7 out).  If I place a bet, I use an ON lammer so that I don&#8217;t count a win but would count the loss in the final tally. If I don&#8217;t have a come bet up, I&#8217;d have white chips on the C\/E so I don&#8217;t account for a loss\/gain.<\/p>\n<p>\tActual Hand highlights:<br \/>\n\tMy initial come out was a 2\/4=6 noted by the chip at top center of the 6.  When I make the point, that white is moved to the top and the shot that hit is now a RED on the place line if I had a come bet up, or would go inside the box if not.<br \/>\n\tMy next shot was a 1\/3=4 with a come bet noted by the white chip left on the 4, but it was initially on the place line and moved up after I&#8217;d had a hit on it.<br \/>\n\tMy overall results are obviously positive with 22 hits, 4 come out hits.  But I am disappointed with the number of late craps and 18 off axis box numbers, 29 off axis in total that need to be worked on.  I noted that although my 5&#8217;s were more on axis, my 9&#8217;s were more off.  My 4s and 10&#8217;s were all of, but 6&#8217;s and 8&#8217;s were better.  I can use Smart Craps to analyze more, but I can now take 30 seconds to analyze what&#8217;s in front of me and determine next actions.<\/p>\n<p>\tTo quickly know what my win\/loss was (I play $10 pass\/come at 3x4x5x odds), I first offset all of the green chips (9 losing, 8 winning so net -$10), count the come\/pass line bets active (all six @ 3x4x5x) for a net -$300, and add the hits (my 3x4x5x odds play gives $70 per hit) so 22 hits = $1,540.  My net for this hand was roughly $1,230 and I know this very quickly without spending the time playing out the real bets and payouts.  It adds less than 2 seconds per roll from the time I pickup the dice to the next pick up of the dice.<\/p>\n<p>\tA couple of other comments: <br \/>\n\t &#8211; I usually only keep one bet on the place line so I know what my last shot was but got lazy here and it shows multiple active shots but there is truly only one pass\/come but up on any number.<br \/>\n\t&#8211; I would also keep an adjustment stack of chips to account for other things happen like a come out 7 to account for a loss of $60 come bets on the line or perhaps the $60 paid to put them back up (oops, my net was actually $1,170).  If you double dip, you could keep the extra wins here as well.<br \/>\n\t &#8211; Those are my Alaskan Malamutes on the chips.  They&#8217;re also in the center of the layout.  \ud83d\ude00 <\/p>\n<p>\tHopefully I wasn&#8217;t confusing, just trying to throw out what IMHO is a great practice accounting and analysis tool.  <\/p>\n<fieldset class=\"gc-fieldset\">\n<legend> Attached files <\/legend>\n<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/crapsclub.goldentouchcraps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/wpforo\/default_attachments\/28101=135-20150619_081908.jpg\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/crapsclub.goldentouchcraps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/wpforo\/default_attachments\/28101=135-20150619_081908.jpg\" class=\"gc-images\" title=\"20150619_081908.jpg\" style=\"max-width:300px\" \/><\/a> <\/fieldset>\n<hr>\n<h3>Replies:<\/h3>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Finisher on June 19, 2015, 4:57 pm<\/p>\n<div>My I am toooo OLD for this .That was confusing let alone just to much to think about . It just seemed to be a distraction when throwing . Maybe 20 yrs. ago it would have worked .<br \/>\n\tI just use a roll sheet and can see at a glance how the numbers are doing .<br \/>\n\tI use the old Roman math at bottom to record the numbers so it looks like a chart at a glance .<br \/>\n\tI have never timed my recording of rolls but there is time spent in real casino to get dice back to you so don&#8217;t worry about those few seconds .<br \/>\n\tIf you ever get to Phoenix Az stop by and take a look at my roll sheet and you could time me and may change the way I do it .<br \/>\n\tNice Pic. Tho. <br \/>\n\tWhen I am at a casino playing I see some placing their chips to record each win and were it is and think that is a lot of work . I prefer to have fun and get to try not to think about much while throwing .<br \/>\n\tI was rolling not to long ago with ACPA WHO RECORDS EVERY ROLL WHILE PLAYING . No heat at all about that.I am thinking about trying that .But then again I do this for the enjoyment first .Winning is FUN .<br \/>\n\tHope you get more responses that like your  idea .<br \/>\n\tGood Rolling.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> TheLion on June 19, 2015, 5:57 pm<\/p>\n<div>I really like the pic<\/p>\n<p>\tI&#8217;m lucky to have a few friends that count the rolls for me<\/p>\n<p>\tMy goal is to do an &quot;80&quot; as the 75 I did last June in LV is my all-time high<\/p>\n<p>\tBut, records are made to be broken<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> HardNine on June 19, 2015, 6:51 pm<\/p>\n<div>Finisher, I&#8217;ve often wondered about recording the rolls at the casino, I just do a quick note in my phone after my hand, but can&#8217;t capture the actual rolls to see on axis and what not, so I do a simple count with the chips without details.  Don&#8217;t know about Phoenix, my table came from there, and have a brother and uncle, but since my mom moved back to Chicago area from Sun City, I don&#8217;t go out there much.<\/p>\n<p>\tLion, heard of your recent trip, sounds like it was more than a little successful.  Will shoot with you again one of these days.<\/p>\n<p>\tHappy rolling<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Dr Crapology on June 19, 2015, 9:40 pm<\/p>\n<div>Here is an idea I picked up from Skinny and The Big Skinny.  <\/p>\n<p>\tSince there are two rows in the chip rail, when I buy in I put all the chips in the chip rail in the row nearest to me.  I them play The Big Skinny with pass line and come bets and occasionally a place bet on the 6 and \/or 8.  <\/p>\n<p>\t I make mental note of 6 spots in the chip rail row away from me&#8212;one spot for a payday on the 4, one for the 5, 6, 8 9, and 10.  With every payday I set a $1 chip in the designated mental spot for the number just hit.  If I have a repeater I will then have two $1 chips on that spot.  If I should hit a particular box number 5 times that spot will have a red chip.  You get the idea.  It is real easy to count how many pay days I have for each box number and to also count the total number of hits.  I usually quit counting after 8 paydays.  Now it is time to get real serious and focus without counting.   <\/p>\n<p>\tDuring the first 8 paydays, I do not press or I make a very small press on the number just hit.  If I am hitting a certain box number frequently, I will be a little more aggressive.  After 8 paydays it is press and pull.  <\/p>\n<p>\tFor me it is easier than what you describe.   With that in mind I do think this is a great thread and hope others can use the various ideas that might be posted.  Thank you for posting this.  I&#8217;ll take any critique any one may have.  <\/p>\n<p>\tDoc<\/p>\n<p>\tPS&#8212;How is the arm???<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> DoughBoy on June 20, 2015, 12:40 am<\/p>\n<div>Doc; I use the same counting method and find it very effective. TBS and the hardways. I love it.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Mr Finesse on June 20, 2015, 1:08 am<\/p>\n<div>Good post, thanks.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> HardNine on June 20, 2015, 2:42 am<\/p>\n<div>Doc, <\/p>\n<p>\tThe arm is in great shape, a small scab from the entry, but blood work shows I&#8217;m clean!   \ud83d\ude00    Thanks for asking, you and Rose are great family!<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> OneMoonCircles on June 20, 2015, 6:59 am<\/p>\n<div>I use the form from Sharpshooter&#8217;s book, modified. Simple, accurate and I get all the info I need and can look back 7 years. It takes me about 15 minutes after my<br \/>\n\tpractice to analyze the data.<\/p>\n<p>\tOMC<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Finisher on June 20, 2015, 7:29 am<\/p>\n<div>Hardnine One time I walked up to a table and there was a guy who was keeping track of the numbers . After a few rolls he said out loud that the 8 had not been rolled in 43 rolls . I said to him that I would bet on it since it should be coming up . The point was 6 so with 6.00 at risk I was not worried . But after 4 more rolls with no 8 I said to him are you sure you did not miss it .He just laughed and then the 8 rolled and I said to him that I almost started to sweat .LOL .<br \/>\n\tGood Rolling. \ud83d\ude42  \ud83d\ude42<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> NickatNight on June 20, 2015, 1:29 pm<\/p>\n<div>I Buy in for $$$$&#8212;I cash out when done&#8212;-$$$..More then buy in&#8211;I did good&#8230;.Less then buy in &#8211;I did not do good.! \ud83d\ude06 <br \/>\n\tDuring practice I hand record my two dice outcomes. Other then that&#8230;Practice-practice -practice&#8230;Who says that? Dom or Bob??<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Mr Finesse on June 20, 2015, 2:41 pm<\/p>\n<div>\ud83d\ude00  \ud83d\ude00  \ud83d\ude00<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I thought of this method of tracking my rolls to watch visually what was happening during a hand in practice. It doesn&#8217;t require moving chips properly (betting and paying out) but gives very valuable information. I ALSO TRACK IN ROLL&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":131,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[9],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-8947","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-craps"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8947","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/131"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=8947"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8947\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=8947"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=8947"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=8947"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}