{"id":8139,"date":"2014-10-13T17:01:42","date_gmt":"2014-10-13T17:01:42","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/2014\/10\/13\/as-gambler-phil-ivey-found-to-his-cost-no-matter-how-subtle-your-sting-the-casino-comes-out-on-top\/"},"modified":"2014-10-13T17:01:42","modified_gmt":"2014-10-13T17:01:42","slug":"as-gambler-phil-ivey-found-to-his-cost-no-matter-how-subtle-your-sting-the-casino-comes-out-on-top","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/2014\/10\/13\/as-gambler-phil-ivey-found-to-his-cost-no-matter-how-subtle-your-sting-the-casino-comes-out-on-top\/","title":{"rendered":"As gambler Phil Ivey found to his cost, no matter how subtle your sting, the casino comes out on top"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><!-- Original Post Content --><br \/>\nBy<br \/>\n\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/i58.tinypic.com\/ztzvvm.jpg\" alt=\"\" \/>  <br \/>\n\tVictoria Coren Mitchell,  The Observer,<\/p>\n<p>\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/i59.tinypic.com\/ea4ei1.jpg\" alt=\"\" \/><\/p>\n<p>\tCrockfords in Curzon Street is one of my favourite casinos, redolent with clickety chips and glittering history. Its name comes from the old 19th-century gaming house on St James\u2019s, set up by William Crockford: a Cockney fishmonger who was such a talented gambler that he made enough money to open his own club and bankrupt half the aristocracy. My kind of guy.<\/p>\n<p>\tAmerican gambling history glows with the seedy glamour of saloons and riverboats, cowboys slicing and dicing their way across the outlaw south with big guns and marked decks. The British equivalents were the old racecourses where dukes and dustmen bet and cursed together, and the marble gaming halls where Regency dandies went skint.<\/p>\n<p>\tI find this all romantic; I can\u2019t help it. Even though what I mostly do, these days, is play respectable and regulated poker tournaments in rented conference centres full of young German maths graduates, I try to let this quirky cultural history add some colour.<\/p>\n<p>\tI\u2019m particularly fond of Crockfords because, when I wrote my gambling memoir For Richer For Poorer, they let me hold the book launch there. Everyone was very nice. I liked them. And it\u2019s a beautiful club. I hope I don\u2019t have my membership revoked for what I\u2019m about to write.<\/p>\n<p>\tLast week\u2019s story about Phil Ivey, who sued Crockfords for non-payment of a \u00a37.7m punto banco win, reminded me that casinos are \u2013 and will always be \u2013 the enemy.<\/p>\n<p>\tIvey, probably the greatest poker player in the world, had been \u201cedge sorting\u201d. This involves noticing when a deck of cards has an asymmetrical pattern, then turning key cards upside-down so they can be identified from the back. In punto banco, the player has a big edge if the first card dealt is a 6, 7, 8 or 9 \u2013 so, if Ivey could turn those cards upside down, he\u2019d know when to make big bets.<\/p>\n<p>\tIn Crockfords, you aren\u2019t allowed to touch the cards. So Ivey\u2019s lady companion, Cheung Yin Sun, asked the unwitting croupier, in Mandarin, to turn the cards \u201cfor superstitious reasons\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>\tPhil Ivey won \u00a37.7m but, realising what had happened, Crockfords paid out only his original stake. So he sued them for his winnings and lost.<\/p>\n<p>\tThe judge ruled that Ivey was cheating. I see a sting \u2013 maybe a con \u2013 but I\u2019d say the house was outwitted rather than cheated.<\/p>\n<p>\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/i58.tinypic.com\/23hvhph.jpg\" alt=\"\" \/><br \/>\n\tEdge sorting<\/p>\n<p>\tThe late gambling legend Amarillo Slim once bet the 1939 Wimbledon champion Bobby Riggs that he could beat him at ping-pong. When the match day dawned, the old-time gambler surprised the tennis champ by unveiling the \u201cbats\u201d he\u2019d brought: two cast-iron cooking skillets. Slim had been practising with the skillets for months. Riggs could barely hold them. The tennis whizz thought he\u2019d had a big edge in the coup, but he was wrong. He paid out and learned from his mistake.<\/p>\n<p>\tTitanic Thompson once bet a guy that he could work out how many watermelons were piled on a passing truck, by sight alone. The guy had no idea that Thompson had met the truck driver the previous day, counted the watermelons and paid him to drive past at an agreed time. The guy paid out and learned from his mistake.<\/p>\n<p>\tPhil Ivey himself, a few years ago, lost several thousand dollars playing golf against a couple of British poker players. One of the Brits made the mistake of boasting widely that Ivey was \u201ca golf fish\u201d. The proud American went away, took lessons, played obsessively, then came back and (claiming he\u2019d \u201chardly played\u201d) suggested upping the stakes. He won a million dollars.<\/p>\n<p>\tSome argued that it was cheating not to declare a changed handicap. Others replied that this was not an official match; Ivey had been taken for a mug, so he mugged his opponents in return.<\/p>\n<p>\tWhy should casinos be exempt from the traps that face all gamblers? They hustle in their own ways, after all. No windows or clocks, so we lose a sense of time. Free drinks; friendly dealers; no open declaration of their statistical advantage. If they think you\u2019re going to lose a fortune (as they did in Ivey\u2019s case), they will pander to your \u201csuperstitions\u201d, whether it\u2019s providing a Mandarin-speaking dealer or flipping cards around. It\u2019s all about making you feel important, to ensure you keep betting your money at unfavourable odds. They make you feel \u201clucky\u201d when you don\u2019t have a chance.<\/p>\n<p>\tIvey interfered with the run of play. That is one definition of cheating; the judge accepted it and I can see why. But my heart says he was just cleverer than the house.<\/p>\n<p>\tHe didn\u2019t smuggle in a set of loaded dice or x-ray specs; he didn\u2019t mark the cards with his fingernails or bribe the staff. He just spotted something about the deck they didn\u2019t spot. He exploited their readiness to give him special treatment because they anticipated fat losses. I believe the casino should have ground its teeth, tipped its hat, paid \u00a37.7m for the lesson and stopped using asymmetrical cards.<\/p>\n<p>\tI play poker, a game where there is no edge but the luck of the deal and the skill of the player. Casino games such as roulette, blackjack, baccarat, slot machines and so on, are stacked in favour of the house. But don\u2019t hustle the hustler: a judge has said that simply isn\u2019t allowed. If you want to gamble on licensed premises, you just have to bend over and take it.<\/p>\n<p>\tWe all dream of \u201ca system\u201d to break the bank at Monte Carlo. What neater way to illustrate the muggery of that dream, what handier Belloc-like lesson, than a court\u2019s official ruling: if you actually come up with such a system, they don\u2019t have to pay you.<\/p>\n<p>\tYou can go to the comments section of the paper here <a href=\"http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/commentisfree\/2014\/oct\/12\/poker-casino-phil-ivey-gambling#start-of-comments\">http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/commentisfree\/2014\/oct\/12\/poker-casino-phil-ivey-gambling#start-of-comments<\/a><\/p>\n<hr>\n<h3>Replies:<\/h3>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Skinny on October 13, 2014, 7:10 pm<\/p>\n<div>\n<blockquote><p><strong>&quot;Pit Boss&quot; wrote:<\/strong> By<br \/>\n\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/i58.tinypic.com\/ztzvvm.jpg\" alt=\"\" \/>  <br \/>\n\tVictoria Coren Mitchell,  The Observer<\/p>\n<p>\tWhy should casinos be exempt from the traps that face all gamblers? <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">They hustle in their own ways<\/span><\/u><\/strong>, after all. <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">No windows or clocks<\/span><\/u><\/strong>, so we lose a sense of time. <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">Free drinks<\/span><\/u><\/strong>; friendly dealers; <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">no open declaration of their statistical advantage<\/span><\/u><\/strong>. If they think you\u2019re going to lose a fortune (as they did in Ivey\u2019s case), they will pander to your \u201csuperstitions\u201d, whether it\u2019s providing a Mandarin-speaking dealer or flipping cards around. It\u2019s all about making you feel important, to ensure you keep betting your money at unfavourable odds. They make you feel \u201clucky\u201d when you don\u2019t have a chance.<\/p>\n<p>\tIvey interfered with the run of play. That is one definition of cheating; the judge accepted it and I can see why. But my heart says he was just cleverer than the house.<\/p>\n<p>\tHe didn\u2019t smuggle in a set of loaded dice or x-ray specs; <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">he didn\u2019t mark the cards<\/span><\/u><\/strong> with his fingernails or bribe the staff. He just spotted something about the deck they didn\u2019t spot. He exploited their readiness to give him special treatment because they anticipated fat losses. <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">I believe the casino should have ground its teeth, tipped its hat, paid \u00a37.7m for the lesson<\/span><\/u><\/strong> and stopped using asymmetrical cards.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>\n\tInteresting article.  She seems to have read my post \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>&quot;Skinny&quot; wrote:<\/strong> <\/p>\n<p>\t<strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">The players did not mark the cards or take any illegal action to influence the cards.<\/span><br \/>\n\t<\/u><\/strong><br \/>\n\tIf requesting a specific deck of cards and a certain type of dealer is illegal the casino should not have granted Ivey&#8217;s request. In addition, I am certain they had casino management observing the game for the type of money that was being played. <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">The casino allowed this to occur and should be required to pay their losses.<\/span><\/u><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>\tCasinos have no problem <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">giving players free drinks<\/span><\/u><\/strong> to try to impair their judgement when gambling.  They try to keep players in the game by <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">having no windows or clocks<\/span><\/u><\/strong> on the gaming floor so folks lose track of time.  They hire psychologists to determine what type of colors and patterns to use on the gaming floor to encourage gamblers to play.  They offer <strong><u><span style=\"color: #FF0000\">games where the mathematics heavily favor the casino<\/span><\/u><\/strong>.<br \/>\n\t<strong><u><br \/>\n\t<span style=\"color: #FF0000\">In other words, casinos have no problem stacking the deck in their favor<\/span><\/u><\/strong>.  But when the shoe is on the other foot, they cry foul.  What is good for the goose (casino) should be good for the gander (player).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Chuckman on October 13, 2014, 7:31 pm<\/p>\n<div>Skinny posted those comments here on October 10.  Her article was published on October 11.  Does she have a membership to this forum?<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"migrated-reply\" style=\"border: 1px solid #eee;padding: 15px;margin-bottom: 15px;border-radius: 5px\">\n<p><strong>Posted by:<\/strong> Dr Crapology on October 14, 2014, 11:59 am<\/p>\n<div>With the vested interest that the government has by way of the heavy tax on casino winnings, it&#8217;s no wonder they generally side with the casinos!!!!!<\/p>\n<p>\tDoc<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>By Victoria Coren Mitchell, The Observer, Crockfords in Curzon Street is one of my favourite casinos, redolent with clickety chips and glittering history. Its name comes from the old 19th-century gaming house on St James\u2019s, set up by William Crockford:&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":36,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[9],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-8139","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-craps"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8139","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/36"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=8139"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8139\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=8139"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=8139"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=8139"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}