{"id":7694,"date":"2014-07-19T14:15:28","date_gmt":"2014-07-19T14:15:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/2014\/07\/19\/bet-size-and-401g\/"},"modified":"2014-07-19T14:15:28","modified_gmt":"2014-07-19T14:15:28","slug":"bet-size-and-401g","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/forumarchives.tmsites.net\/index.php\/2014\/07\/19\/bet-size-and-401g\/","title":{"rendered":"Bet size and 401g"},"content":{"rendered":"


\nI know I have seen this discussed but I can’t seem to find anything in my notes or in any of the books I have. Generally speaking, what should be the proper unit size based on 401g amount? I realize the exact answer depends on your SRR but I am looking for a starting place. <\/p>\n

\tFor example, if your 401g is $6,000 and your SRR is 6.8, you bet pass line with odds and place 6\/8, what should be the basic unit or starting spread? Would $5 pass line bet, $25 odds and $12 6\/8 ($54 initial bet) be too much for that size account, too little, or just right?<\/p>\n

\tThanks for your help.<\/p>\n

\n

Replies:<\/h3>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Chuckman on July 19, 2014, 5:07 pm<\/p>\n

At one point, 1% was the magic number. So with a $6,000 401g your initial bet pool would be $60.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> sevenout on July 19, 2014, 7:15 pm<\/p>\n

When I started with GTC the recommended 401G was 200-300 times the size of your inital out lay. At $54 you would be looking at 10K-15K range. I am not sure if the guidelines have ‘softened’ since I took the class.<\/p>\n

\tAgain the idea is too have enough money behind you that you are not concerned with losing a buy-in or two. I don’t ever recall seeing anything about SRR being a factor.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Dr Crapology on July 20, 2014, 2:12 pm<\/p>\n

It all depends how conservative or aggressive you want to be. In other words what is your risk tolerance. Doc and Rose are pretty conservative and we use the 1% rule. It works for us. 1% is our starting spread. Get 3 hits and we will begin to press. We press very little (maybe $10) on each hit until we get 8 paydays. Then we use a press and take from that point forward. A press is usually made after hitting a pay day on a number that has already been hit. We use the Big Skinny so are using come bets and the press could be out to a new number rather than up. Out to a new number or up on an existing come bet, either one is considered a press by us. <\/p>\n

\tWith this we can’t get hurt too bad on a short roll but are in position to really "put the pedal to the metal" for a longer roll. <\/p>\n

\tHope that helps.<\/p>\n

\tRose and Doc<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> JawBones on July 20, 2014, 4:38 pm<\/p>\n

Thank you all for the replies. Still not 100% sure what I am going to do but if I am going to use the 1\/200 – 1\/300 rule, I will definitely need a much larger 401g than I currently have to bet the spread I feel comfortable with. 1% works fine with the size of my current initial bets and the size of my 401g.<\/p>\n

\tLook forward to seeing everyone again in Vegas in October for the refresher course. My bride of 34 years will be taking the Primer. Should be a good time.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Finisher on June 21, 2018, 10:39 pm<\/p>\n

Those you play 25.00 tables read this .<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Wirenut on June 22, 2018, 11:00 am<\/p>\n

Jawbones, <\/p>\n

Look forward to seeing everyone again in Vegas in October for the refresher course. My bride of 34 years will be taking the Primer.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n\tYou may need to check your schedule. You said Oct in Vegas for the refresher, I double-checked the calendar, Vegas is in August. Atlantic City is in Oct.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> JawBones on June 22, 2018, 11:14 am<\/p>\n

Not sure what you mean Wirenut. The original post in this thread was in 2014. Those are classes I have taken not classes I am going to take. Let me know if I am not fully understanding what you mean.<\/p>\n

\tjb<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Wirenut on June 22, 2018, 11:36 am<\/p>\n

\n

"JawBones" wrote:<\/strong> Not sure what you mean Wirenut. The original post in this thread was in 2014. Those are classes I have taken not classes I am going to take. Let me know if I am not fully understanding what you mean.<\/p>\n

\tjb<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n\tMy apologies. I didn’t notice the timestamp. I thought it was a new thread.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Dominator on June 22, 2018, 11:42 am<\/p>\n

1% is a good rule of thumb, but I would actually go to $90 on the $6000 – passline with double odds, (assuming a $10 table) and two comebets with double odds.<\/p>\n

\tI don’t ever place any bets – why should anyone? With just double odds you are bringing th eHE down below a half point<\/p>\n

\tDom<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> JawBones on June 22, 2018, 2:30 pm<\/p>\n

Hi Dom,<\/p>\n

\tI wrote this thread back in 2014. Not sure how\/why it was resurrected but I bet differently now, for sure. I am Pass Line with full odds (or 10X on a table that allows more than that) and 2 come bets with full odds. I replace each bet as hit. When I have had 3 hits I begin to spread out. With 5 hits I have a come bet out at all times and with 8 hits I place\/buy the number just hit. In other words, I bet the GTC way exclusively and use the 5-count on all random shooters. My 401g is a bit healthier now than it was back then.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Dominator on June 23, 2018, 1:44 pm<\/p>\n

Didn’t realize.<\/p>\n

\tSometimes it is good to have some of these old posts to come forward<\/p>\n

\tDom<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Finisher on June 23, 2018, 3:57 pm<\/p>\n

Dom I brought this post back because I saw of of our members say he played on a 25.00 table which is fine by me . I just wondered if his BR is enough to support that kind of play according to GTC way .
\n\tThis was a post that I found about this . I think that maybe others might add to it since some get a little carried away after a couple of good wins under their belt .If you know what I mean .
\n\tSome have never gone back to read old posts .
\n\tGood Rolling. \ud83d\ude00 \ud83d\ude42<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> JawBones on June 23, 2018, 10:15 pm<\/p>\n

Got it Finisher. It has been a grind since 2014 for sure. As we grow on our journey, there are good days and bad. We all must remember that our edge is relatively small and it is over the long haul that our edge will manifest. For sure there will be days where everything falls into place and we punish the casino. There are other days where the reverse is true. But, being advantaged players, we tend to reduce the time at the tables on the bad days and maximize the time on the good ones.<\/p>\n

\tI find the 1% rule to be very useful. Even on a run of bad days, risking only 1% at most of the 401g leaves plenty in reserve to make it to the good days.<\/p>\n

\tThanks for resurrecting this post. As Dom said, it is fun to go back and look at older posts to get a feel for how far we’ve all come.<\/p>\n

\tjb<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> billythekid on June 26, 2018, 12:11 am<\/p>\n

We at GTC like to use math as the basis for anything that we do with respect to casino bets.
\n\tThe math answer says that your bet should be directly proportional to your bankroll and your edge. This is why we always stress to students that they practice, record rolls and then determine what their actual edge really is. Those who guess are dooming their bankroll into oblivion.
\n\tThe 1% mark is a good one to use and is fairly conservative if you have and edge. Remember I said IF.
\n\tHere is a simple calculator to play with but it does not show what your variance will be which is a very big deal. http:\/\/www.albionresearch.com\/kelly\/<\/a>
\n\tOn the same page there are other resources that point you towards an education in statistics and betting. Most of the betting advice that you will get does not pertain to craps since in craps we make multiple bets not just one and of course the variance is high.
\n\tTo briefly and simply state something about the Kelly Criterion, it tells people that to achieve the highest bankroll growth they should size their bets according to their edge. This highest rate comes when you would wager that same percentage of your bank that your edge is. In other words if you have a 1% edge you should bet 1% of your bank on each trial. I do not know any professional player that does this because it not only gives you the quickest bankroll growth, it also gives you extremely high variance and translates into a 5% risk of losing everything even if you resize your bets after losses. Most pros use a fraction of that to keep them safe. My advice? Be safe and always know your edge.
\n\tWhen you learn how to win your wagers should follow your bankroll as it grows, so when you double your bank you should double your bets.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Dominator on June 26, 2018, 11:46 am<\/p>\n

Absolutely great points from my partner Billy the Kid!<\/p>\n

\tThank you Billy!<\/p>\n

\tDom<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> MrPiP on June 26, 2018, 9:31 pm<\/p>\n

Hi I did some physical simulations on this at home with real chips. I started with a make believe $5000 bankroll Its its up to 25K and used what I called the B.O.A.T. Its short for Bet On All Throws. Its roots are from what is taught in class and Skinny’s "The Big Skinny" I uses pure PL\/Come betting with odds but how I spread it is what is different. I put my 3 main bets (Not full odds) only on one of the numbers (6\/8, 5\/9, 4\/10) and if the next roll I hit the primary’s sister number I put odds that is less than the primary bet and press. Usually after three hits I am even and the secondary bets are pressed into primary bets and with less throws you have the whole table covered. I showed NFF at the last advance class and he said "As long as you are comfortable". It has an exit strategy that I call the exposure counter. I am only willing to risk 6 main bets at any point. When I establish a main bet (Primary bet) I add one to my exposure counter and when I hit a bet primary bet I minus one from the counter. When my exposure is 0. I know all hit from this point are money making hits. Its really nothing new but It works for me and knocks me out when the skill is down and does really great when the skill is up. I probably need a separate thread to go more detail into it.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Dominator on June 27, 2018, 12:43 pm<\/p>\n

Reading this Mr Pip – are you using all comebets? I ask because you said placing the sister number
\n\tDom<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> SevenTimesSeven on June 27, 2018, 2:37 pm<\/p>\n

So what, really, is the "1% rule"?
\n\tIf your 401G is at $40,000, and your edge is 1%:
\n\t(1) Do you limit your bet spread at $400 at a time?
\n\t(2) Do you buy in with $400? and quit if you lose that?
\n\tOr what does the rule mean?<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n

Posted by:<\/strong> MrPiP on June 27, 2018, 6:16 pm<\/p>\n

Yes I use comebets only. <\/p>\n

\tExample of the B.O.A.T strategy that I use. <\/p>\n

\tBuy In: $500 <\/p>\n

\tMy Three Bets for the Primary Bet
\n\t6\/8 – $10 base and $25 Odds Press Sequence $25 -> $30 -> $50
\n\t5\/9 – $10 Base and $20 Odds Press Sequence $20 -> $30 -> $50
\n\t4\/10 – $10 base and $15 Odds Press Sequence $15 -> $25 -> $30 -> $50<\/p>\n

\tMy Bets for a Sister Number (Secondary Bet)
\n\t6\/8 – $10 base and $15 Odds Press Sequence $15 -> $25 (Promoted to Primary Bet) -> $30 -> $50
\n\t5\/9 – $10 base and $10 Odds press Sequence $10 -> $20 (Promoted to Primary Bet) -> $30 -> $50
\n\t4\/10 – $10 base and $10 Odds press Sequence $10 -> $15 (Promoted to Primary Bet) -> $25 – >$30 -> $50<\/p>\n

\tIf during the Point Cycle If my Comebet hits a YO then I use the proceeds to press my line bet
\n\tIf during the Come Out Cycle I establish a point that had an existing comebet I used the proceeds to press the line bet<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> JawBones on June 27, 2018, 7:53 pm<\/p>\n

7X7, I’m sure it means different things to different people but the way I use it is if your 401g is $40K as in your example, my initial spread is no more than $400. At a $10 table with 10X odds, using the GTC betting method, I would have a pass line with $100 odds and 2 come bets with $100 odds each for a total spread of $330 which is less than the 1%. <\/p>\n

\tThat’s how Lady Luck and I do it. If we are on a really good streak, our initial spread increases. If on a really bad streak, we decrease to stay within the 1% rule.<\/p>\n

\tFor the initial buy-in, I primarily play $5 and $10 tables, my buy-in is $800. I usually play with my wife and her buy in is the same. <\/p>\n

\tjb<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Dominator on June 28, 2018, 12:56 pm<\/p>\n

Mr Pip<\/p>\n

\tI am sorry, I still don’t understand. You say you use come bets only but mention sister numbers. Are you saying that after your point is establish – example a 6 – you put out a comebet and if you throw an 8 that is what you put in odds. <\/p>\n

\tDom<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> Dominator on June 28, 2018, 1:00 pm<\/p>\n

\n

"SevenTimesSeven" wrote:<\/strong> So what, really, is the "1% rule"?
\n\tIf your 401G is at $40,000, and your edge is 1%:
\n\t(1) Do you limit your bet spread at $400 at a time?
\n\t(2) Do you buy in with $400? and quit if you lose that?
\n\tOr what does the rule mean?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n\tWhat you buy in for has nothing to do with your 1%, your 1% has to do with your total gambling BR. I buy in for many different amounts all the time. What I have in my BR has nothing to do with it.<\/p>\n

\tYes, you would limit your spread to 1% so in your example $400<\/p>\n

\tDom<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Posted by:<\/strong> MrPiP on July 2, 2018, 3:08 am<\/p>\n

here is an example
\n\tIf I establish the first point and its a 6 Put 25 odds
\n\tif the next point is an 8 I fill put 15 dollar odds
\n\tIf the next point is a 5 I put 20 odds
\n\tIf the next point is a 9 I put 10 odds
\n\tIf the next point is a 10 I put 15 odds
\n\tIf the next point is a 4 I put 10 odds
\n\tIf the next point is a 6 I press it the odds from 25 to 30
\n\tIf the next point is a 5 I press it the odd from 20 to 30
\n\tif the next point is a 10 I press it the odds from 15 to 25
\n\tIf the next point is a 6 I press the odds from 15 to 25 (Promotion)
\n\tif the next point is a 9 I press the odd from 10 to 20 (Promotion)
\n\tif the next point is a 4 I press the odds from 10 to 15 (Promotion)
\n\tAny hits of an 11 on the come I will press 10 on the PL until I have full odds
\n\tOnce I press to full odds and my exposure counter is cleared then I count 6 hits and go to 15 on the come and start pressing to max odds again<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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