Boy it is their game but they change the rules and not tell you till you are in the game . I always tried to see that I bet on the player before me for this reason for years even though no one has said anything about it . It did happen to me years ago .

I guess we need to get use to higher limits since this is not going away soon .

Good Rolling.

Good read!

Did you mean that you had to bet on the player before you or did you mean you had to bet on EVERYONE?

thanks

Dom

@dominator

I was told that I was expected to bet on EVERY ONE.  It was explained that I was to have at least a minimum bet on all players after the come-out.  They did not require a pass line bet recognizing that some players prefer to place bet or do crazy crapper bets.  It was explained that with only 6 players allowed due to COVID, that you were occupying a position without any action with other players waiting to play.  At the time, there were only 4 players, so I assume that they let me slide unless I failed to bet on the person just ahead of me.  Some times that person made the 5-count and sometimes not.  When he didn’t make the 5-count, the dice were passed around me.

Interesting. Would they let you bet $1.00 on a hardway bet? Would that count?

Dom

@dominator

Sorry, I do not know since I don’t do prop bets (the HA is way too high for my advantage).  It seemed that I only saw nickels or higher on prop bets, so maybe that min is $5.  I do know that at least one house in Biloxi made the minimum $5 for the ATS before COVID.

I ask, because yes it is high house edge, but just a dollar. But a $5 comebet on everyone after they establish a number does have a positive on the very first roll. The difference is that with 5 other players, the $5 come would cost you $25 if you didn’t win a bet, if they let you do a $1 hardway, the cost to you would be $5 if you lost. To me what you do would depend on the BR that you have

Dom

My home venue has that rule and applies it when things are getting out of hand, some box apply more firmly than others.  A few weeks ago, the guy to my left had had a couple of bets up ($25 table) and had taken them down after around roll 10.  He had some center action, either a $5 prop or ATS, but action was <$25.  The box told him that he needs at least $25 action at all times and he started to argue that he did and he just took it down.  They pulled him from the table to ‘discuss’ with security and he kept arguing.  They eventually threw him out.

Boy if that was table that I had to play on they would not get vary much action from me . I would have to think about waiting till I could get my spot with only one or two players left to roll before the dice came to me . I would make sure that the roll was in progress so to wait till at least he made a point before the bye in .

So do they say anything about waiting to bye in during a roll . I have waited many times during a roll and nothing said . like 5,10 and even 15 min. 

Good Rolling.

I wonder if you could stay on a table that requires you to bet on all rolls by doing a doey-don’t, that is bet the minimum on both the passline AND on the don’t pass?  The only loss would be a minimum when the 12 appears on the come-out.  Probability of the loss would only be 1 in 36 come-outs.  It would keep you on the table with minimal risk unless the box would not like that either.   Just a thought.

@finisher, sign of the times! :-/

@bminus1

The house edge on a don’t pass wager is 1.36%.

The house edge on a pass line wager is 1.41%.

The house edge on a doey-don’t wager is 1.389%.  It’s approximately half way between the don’t and pass wagers because the 1 time in 36 that you lose on the do when the 12 appears will cost you money in the long run.

You can not save money by betting the doey-don’t.  Eventually that 12 will catch up and cost you a bit more than if you be the don’t by itself and a bit less than betting the pass line by itself.

Skinny I may be wrong but I thought that the loss on the 12 had to be on a come out roll ? 

@finisher

That is correct.  And while it may not seem like that is a lot.  The 1 time in 36 that you lose your pass line and push your don’t pass on the come out is enough to make the house edge on that wager 1.389%.

@finisher

Look at it this way.  Let us say you bet $5 on the pass line and $5 on the don’t pass line for a total of $10 being wagered on the come out.  There are 36 possible combinations of dice for you to roll on the come out roll.  Only 1 of those 36 combinations is a 12.

In those 36 come out rolls you will wager a total of $360.  The one time that you roll a 12 you will lose $5 on your pass line and push your don’t pass wager for a net loss of $5.

Thus you can expect to lose $5 for every $360 that you wager.

$5/$360 = .01389 = 1.389%.

I hope that clears up any confusion about the HA.

Skinny do me a favor and record in your next practice session how many come out 12s you have . Thank you or just go back and see how many come out 12s you have had come pared to just 12s during a roll . Maybe that would clear things up . I think that there will be less 12s on come out rolls then one in 36 rolls . I may be wrong but I think most on this site throw even less 12s and let alone them being come out 12s .

Just for fun and a quick look I went back on some rolls . 

the rolls were .

56 rolls with 1 -12 not come out .

44               2 12s not come out 

59       2  12s with 1 come out 

56      2   12s not come out 

60      1  no come out 

41    1 come out 

141  2 12s 1 being a come out 

74   1   no come out 

74 1   no come out 

35   1   come out 

54    2  no come out 

35   0  12s 59 6 12s with one being come out .

This is a small sample but you can see that a come out 12 is not as the math says the way you put it . I do think that many on this site avoid the 12 more then the math says and also as come out 12s also . This is why we had the discussion about playing this way on the craps machine were I told you they were getting many points .

The machine did the math like you just did and they got lots of points for play . Since the come out 12s did not come that often . 

They did change the pay for points . Was 1 point for every 5.00 play now it is 1 point for every 200.00 play . By play I mean coin in coin out . In your math they would get 36 points just for the pass line and DP bets . Then you factor in all the place bets and DC bets it adds up . Or maybe lay bets . 

You are the math guy but I will be surprised if your records show that you have a come out 12 every 36 rolls . 

I throw a lot of crap and still do not come close as you can see . I just hope that you  don’t think  that I am giving you a lot of crap .

Good Rolling.

@finisher

This is too small a sample to be mathematically significant.  However if one analyzes your numbers closely it is uncanny how close it comes to the exact math that one would expect for a random roll.

If I added your numbers correctly, I get a total of 22 twelves out of 788 rolls.  That comes to 1 twelve in every 35.8 rolls.  That is exactly the number of twelves one would expect for a random roll.

Now you did not say how many of those 788 rolls were come out rolls.  I am pretty sure you have that information so please take a look at it and let me know what that number is.  I believe what you are not taking into consideration is that a significantly greater number of your rolls are point cycle rolls rather than come out rolls.  After all a come out roll gets settled in one roll 1/3 of the time.  The other 2/3 of your rolls establish a point and it takes a lot more than 1 roll to settle a point once it is established. 

So even though you settle your pass line wager 12 out of 36 rolls on the come out, It takes a lot more rolls to settle your point number which you establish with the remaining 24 out of 36 rolls.

I am not sure what that number is but I believe somewhere between 10% and 20% of all your rolls are come out rolls.  In other words I would estimate that in those 788 rolls around 80 – 160 of them were come out rolls.  The rest were rolls during the point cycle.

You stated that you had 5 come out twelves out of your 22 twelves.   That means that 5/22 of your twelves were on the come out.  In other words, 22.7% of your twelves were come out twelves.  If 179 of your 788 rolls were come out rolls, that would mean you threw exactly the number of twelves on the come out that one would expect for the sample you gave.

I think you had less than 179 come out rolls in this sample.  But I am not sure of that math.  What I am pretty sure about is that you threw very close to the exact number of twelves expected on the come out.

Always love your analysis Skinny

Dom

Skinny I think I threw 1 more then I should have . But there were 147 come out rolls with that small sample . Or maybe 2 more then I should have but I do throw a lot of crap .

Good Rolling. 

Skinny so how often should we expect a come out 12 during a roll ?

Good Rolling.

@finisher

A random roll would expect to throw approximately 1 twelve for every 36 come out rolls.  With 147 come out rolls, random would expect to throw 4 come out twelves.  You had 5 which is 1 more than expected but not unreasonable.

So even with this small sample I think you can see how the doey-don’t would not save you money over making either a pass or don’t pass wager by itself.

If you bet $5 on the pass and $5 on the don’t pass you would have wagered a total of $1,470 in those 147 come out rolls.  You would have lost $5 the 5 times you threw a 12 and broken even on all the other 142 come out rolls.

$25/$1470 = 0.0170 = 1.70%  This is a higher HA than the pass line or don’t pass alone.

If instead you bet $5 on the pass line or don’t pass alone, you would have wagered a total of $735 and your expected loss would have been $10, a lot less than the $25 you would have lost with the doey-don’t.