Finisher,

We have practiced some with two hands–one with come betting and one with place betting.  This was no scientific experiment as we did not keep detailed records.  BUT what we observed was that with a quick 7 out, the place bet method killed us.  WHY!!!  With place betting assuming a pass line bet with odds combined with place bets on the remaining five box numbers, this gave us six an exposure of 6 bets on the table as a starting point.  Assuming setting a pass line bet and the 5 place bets, if you have an immediate point seven out you lose 6 bets.  Now on your next turn with the dice you make the exact same bets–the one pass line bet and 5 place bets–you have to have 12 winning rolls of the dice to break even.  A big hole to get out of.  Even if you have a pay day to two you when the seven out occurs, you still have an uphill battle ahead.

However if you only bet the pass line bet and come bets, the short roll occurs you only lose a couple of bets.  

As to the statement made by other so called “experts,” that come betting is not the way to go because you have to hit the number twice to win.  BS–you are betting place bets with a much higher house vig and you have too much money on the table to  start your turn with the dice which is too much exposure to begin your turn.  

As No Field Five says–you lose less so that you can win more.  I see this a lot in my practice.  

Just a few words from Rose and Doc.

Interesting Finisher that you are doing this with one player as a place player and the other using place bets as well as comebets. You don’t seem you to want to get away from being a place player…. LOL. If that is the case, may I suggest you add a third player that is strictly a come player

Dom

Finisher, I practice bet 99% of the time.  the only time I don’t is when I’m working on a specific issue that crops up.  The chips at the other end are a great way to force yourself to adjust.  Interestingly, I’ve had MANY more folks move their chips or have others tell them to move them when they see your target zone.  Don’t know how long that will last, but it’s certainly welcome!

For the comparison betting, I do this for a minimum of one month and I do that at least once a year.  As my shot has improved, I like to keep the comparisons relatively fresh.  Since I’m rolling 100-200 a day, I get some good counts in there. 

Here are some more comparisons I’ve been working on, and will likely run 2-5 for quite a while, not just a month.  Since my home base is a 100x odds house, these have come up especially since the $25 minimums are more the norm, and my recent trip to Vegas brought up the Repeaters on many more tables.  I’ve recently purchase a table for my NC cabin, and although the repeaters aren’t in this area, I put them on my layout.

1) Place to Come – I like to see the difference ON MY HANDS

2) with the $25 min, I wanted to see if CRAP/Horn High 1/2 netted + or – result.  I don’t think about it with $10 min, but it’s a mental thing for $25 and I need to prove it to myself to get it out of my head when I’m shooting.  So far, I’m losing by putting up a nickel against even the $25 even though I through an above average number of Ace/Deuces.  (I can hear Dom saying “No Shit Sherlock!”). But again, I need my head to not even worry about this as the head game is important.

3) Repeater Bets – I want to understand where I have an advantage if indeed I have on in the long run.  I’ll be tracking this on my home table even though it doesn’t have it on the layout, but right now I’m at the cabin.  I’m betting 3 thru 10 at the moment but tracking every single hit and will create a spreadsheet to track the long run of the bet.  It’s too early to tell the long run but am ahead for the current 8 days I’ve been tracking… nowhere near enough to collect the many dry spells I’ll encounter.

4) ATS – This one is more complicated now that there are two pay tables.  I have the higher one up north, but the lower one here near my cabin.  I’ll have to track against both pay tables in order to understand the long run, especially if all of the venues eventually convert to the lower pay table.  So far, I’m ahead, and have had a great run lately, at least I think so… again, need to track many more hands.

5) Fire – I just don’t think this is worth tracking.  I just don’t hit it often enough above 4 to the fire.  I put $2 on it and it is what it is.  I know this is a loser in the long run.  I’ve hit 4’s and 5’s, had a 6 setup, and was on one student’s 6 Fire by accident with $1 on it.  There has only been one time when I put $5 up and that was a trip to a great venue with Scooter and we were both hitting 4’s and 5’s regularly on the trip.  I’ve never had that happen otherwise.  But here’s the real thing on betting Fire, and arguably on the other carnival games.  There was one particular day playing at the home venue with Scooter.  I bet $1 Fire, he bet $5.  He rolled a pretty good hand, perhaps in the high 20’s.  He hit the 5 point Fire.  I compare what I made on the hand to what he made on the hand.  We were both at around $1,450.  My gain was from the real game, his was from the the carnival.  Had he not hit the 5th point, I’d have still been at $1,400 and he’d have had around $325.  He needs to have a better real betting game, which is betting better as he’s seen the light.  But it’s a great lesson.

Bottom line, these have to be proven in the long run, discounted for practice table vs. the real game, and IMHO, it takes a real advantage to win in the long run.

Dom You and I are both getting old but I looked back at my post . Maybe you should . I said the first one is a come better . Also did you look at what you said on the post I bought back from past ? 

HardNine I like that you try different ways of betting . Not all ways are good for all just saying . If I could roll like some on this site I would be a come better only . But so far I do not throw repeaters enough for come betting yet . So far the place better is doing a little better then the come . Well it is the place /come better . So far the come better has only got to 3 come bets 2 times since he needs to hit a win 3 times before going up on a third come bet .

The POS outs do kill the place better . That is why I am only letting the place bets stay up till I have 2 come bets . then since I play were the MIN. is 5.00 I go down to min . on place bets with max. odds on only the first 2 come bets .

I just want to see how this works for me . Since I do throw a lot of different numbers during a roll . I have had a lot of players win on the STA which I don’t bet vary often . 

I look at it like my SRR is not that great so for me to win on come bets with in 5,6 or 7 rolls seems not great . But winning on the 2nd to 4th roll with place bets seems a little better . The risk is that POS out is a killer . If I can roll 2 box numbers right away then I may be 35.00 in rack with 2 come  bets with max . odds and the rest covered with min. bets on them . If I roll 2 box numbers then 7 out I will be down 60.00 to many what ifs .

I just like trying different things in practice . That one time when I tried just come bets made me think a little more about them since I made like 17 come bets during one roll and won ONE . I did make money on that roll since I made many points . But the come out 7s killed my come bets . Even the dealers were surprised when I hit the 16 come bet for a win .

I am sure that most of GTC can do great with come bets .

Good Rolling.

@dominator I said one come better and one place/come better like what you said to Tex on MAy 23 2013 . I brought the post back since it is a great post with a lot of info .

Good Rolling.

You know when I really feel old Finisher – In the morning when I get up! LOL

Back then I did say the use on a place/come, but like most people as I got OLDER (LOL) I learned the error of my ways

Dom

I can tell you all from experience.  If @finisher is at the table bet the ATS if they have it.  He does roll a lot of numbers.    (it has worked for me at one of our favorite spots in Laughlin that offers the ATS)   Oh and happy Valentines day !  ❤️ 

Jack It is nice when we win on it .Thanks .

Good Rolling.