Wow, this is such a great topic Preacher and glad to see you back on the forum

I, we, the instructors at GTC DO NOT want you to regress IF YOU ARE PLAYING WITH AN EDGE.

You will notice that I highlighted – if you are playing with an edge. That is the key to everything. If you are playing with an edge you are costing yourself money by regressing. On your example of regressing after 25 rolls, well what if you have one of those rolls that for to 40, which you have had. Think about all the money you could have made – much more than the $500 you talked about. Even just 5 more rolls – to a 30 roll hand would make you more than the $500.

Now I said if playing with an edge. What if you are not playing with an edge but still out there shooting like taught in class – then give yourself the 5-count before you put out two come bets, but still DO NOT Regress after the 5-count

Hope this helps

Dom

Love it Dom, Great reply & knowledge that I can apply to my game. I usually don’t take down my odds when having a good roll going, this just reinforces it. Thanks Dom!!!

High Arc

This is an article I wrote titled:  Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

I think it may be appropriate for this thread.

https://www.goldentouchcraps.com/article.php?p=skinny0007.shtml

It is a great article Skinny! All should read it!

Dom

Skinny, you are so right.  Since you have to count the chips in the rail not what’s on the table.  Never reduce or take down your bets in the middle of a good roll.  

Skinny and Dom, when we first started playing craps we honestly did not bet enough.  It took us a while to realize that if we bet too little we were not going to make enough to win but would actually lose money.  Thank goodness this was really emphasized in the craps classes.

Question–However let’s say you are in the middle of a good roll in the 20 to 35 rolls, you make your point and have a come out roll and your odds are returned and you lose the base come bets–however you do win back one of your base come bets since the pass line bet is a winner.  Now what do you do:  (We are just expanding this thought process for others to review their knowledge on this subject.)

1.  Start all over with come bets and odds.  Probably the best option.

2.  Buy back your come bets by making them “put” bets–if you have lots of odds as this brings the house vig down and thia just might be a good move.  BUT remember you LOSE the 2 to 1 advantage by not using the come line to establish new bets.

3.  Place/buy the box numbers and replace the place/buy with come bets as the box numbers hit.  In our humble opinion the worst of the 3 options. 

Remember (in the words of Billy the Kid) you may be getting tired and the come out 7 may just be an indication of what may happen in the near future.  

Skinny, Dom look forward to your thoughts on this.

Rose and Doc

One additional thought.  You never need to take down your odds as the odds are never at risk in the long run–why, the odds are an even money bet since the house house no edge on the odds.  The worse that can happen in the long run as that you will break even including the odds portion on your pass line /come bets with random rollers.  However we do come way back on our odds bets on random rollers to protect our bank roll.

Just an extra thought.

Can’t wait for Vegas

Rose and Doc

Thank you Doc for bringing this up. As I say in class, when I have the board covered with comebets and odds and I throw a comeout 7 and all my odds are given back to me, I treat that as a Christmas gift!

What I mean by this is that if that 7 came one roll later – after I established the new point – I would have lost everything. So when that I happens I just start all over and put up new comebets

Dom

For me it depends on where I am on the hand.

If I have 4 paydays or less I will start all over with my pass line and come bets.

If I have 5-8 paydays I will put 2 place bets on the 2 numbers that I hit the most.  When I hit those numbers with come bets I will use the payout for the odds and leave the place bet up so that I have a double wager on that number.

If I have more than 8 paydays I will put 4 place bets on the 4 numbers that I am hitting the most and treat them the same as I did above.

I handle it this way based on the amount of money I have collected because I have a specific goal in mind that requires me to put more money on the table once I have achieved certain goals.

Here is why I use 4 and 8 paydays for determining how much I am going to put back on the table.

My objective when I start each hand is to get all the numbers covered with come bets and full odds.  With 4 paydays I put an amount into my rails equal to the amount I would have on the table with all the numbers covered with full odds.  So until I have that amount in my rails I consider myself still behind on the hand.  Once I have 4 paydays I can not lose money on the hand because all my future bets are made with money from wins on bets on the table.

Thus if I am starting the hand over again with 5-8 paydays I can put a bit back on the table.  By using the winnings to fund the odds I am making a bit more from my previous paydays.  Even if I get up on a few different numbers and then seven out before any more paydays I will still not lose any money on the hand.  But most likely the roll will extend a bit more and I will make a lot more than if I had just started over again.

I will never consider put bets unless I can put 10X odds or greater.  Put bets are better than come bets at different odds depending on the number.  But rather than memorizing the different odds for different numbers, I know at 10X or greater odds the put bet provides a lower HA than the come bet.  So I use that as a general rule of thumb for all put bets.

I do understand where you are coming from Skinny and placing 2 numbers only that you have hit a few times is not a bad idea, I just would rather start the whole process over

Dom

Great conversation and I love the article.  That’s why I ‘play the game’ every time I practice.  My day starts with the same as my casino live-play buy-in which has increased over time.  I bet the exact same way as in live play….. no BS!!!  It’s fun to throw a boat load of money on the table and be able to say “Look!  I won $10k!”  But unless you will do it in live play, don’t do it in practice.  The whole point of practicing with chips is that you eventually know how to handle every situation that comes up and you WON’T GET SCARED in live play.  That’s what part of Skinny’s article notes, and to me, it’s the head game.  If you have the bank roll, and plan to play a certain way, with the spread Dom notes in the classes is on the table, your head has to be in the right place to make the progressions.

I have a friend who was shooting… he had $5 on the fire bet, I had $1.  We both end up making $1400 on the hand.  His was from a $1250 payout on the fire and only $150 on bets.  Mine, however, was only $250 from fire and $1150 on bets.  The fire is nice, but I need to make money on the hand!!!  Practice, and the fear isn’t in your head.  

The one time earlier this year that I had an opportunity to put 100x behind my 8, I was able to do it without fear because I’ve practiced for that very moment!

Love this thread!

Don

So much great information and analysis by all. I will walk through all of this with my Alabama girl, RollTide4Ever. And, yes, this is well discussed in the excellent Golden Touch Craps weekend seminars, of which RollTide4Ever has not had the benefit. We will remedy this at our earliest opportunity once I have recovered from my much needed back surgery.
Skinny, as usual, mentioned something he does that I had not considered, yet, in my own play. He said, “because I have a specific goal in mind that requires me to put more money on the table”.

A specific goal. I have to admit, when I walk up to the table and take a position, SR1 or SR2, I am thinking, “Let’s see what I can do tonight.” (I’m not the morning person Dr Crapology is.) Of course, I have a betting method, exactly as Dom described and I learned in my GTC weekend seminars. But I can’t say I have a goal, an endgame. This will take some thought, my next step in my GTC journey. I’m excited!

Hardnine, your approach to practice is exactly the same as mine, and with my lessons and practices with RollTide4Ever, and my youngest son. It’s a technique my family partners have come to appreciate, when I take them to nearby (3 hours) casinos for live experiences. I even put on casino style music – not my preferred, by any means.

Preacher,

I want to be sure I did not give you the wrong impression about what I mean by specific goals.  I am referring to specific goals with respect to my betting.

My first objective is to win enough money to equal the amount I would have on the table if I had all the box numbers covered with max odds using come bets.  Once I win that amount of money I know I can not possibly lose money on that hand.  That money gets locked up in my rails and I don’t put more on the table from my rails so that I can not walk away a loser on this hand.

My second goal is to win the same amount again so that I will have a profit equal to what I have on the table if I have all the numbers covered with max odds.  I now lock that up in my rails as well.

Hence, if I have all the numbers covered with max odds and seven out I walk away with a net profit equal to what I had on the table.  If I have fewer numbers covered when the hand ends, I walk away with a slightly larger net profit.

But if the hand continues, it is at this point that I need to put more money on the table.  However I don’t take anything out of my rails.  I take the winnings from future paydays and start putting place bets on the numbers starting with the numbers I am hitting the most.  I want to get double bets on all the numbers at this point but if I am not hitting certain numbers I am willing to put more money on the numbers that I am hitting.

My objective is to put the winnings from the next 6 numbers I hit with single bets on them on the table.  If I hit a number that has a double bet or larger on it I keep that as a double hit. 

Once I collect an amount from the double hits to equal the 6 bets I am trying to put up on the table I now start putting more money on the table.  That is because at this point I will have a net profit in my rails equal to the amount I would have on the table if I have a double wager on each number equal to a come bet with max odds.

My goal is to win an amount equal to what I have on the table if I have all the number covered, slightly more if I don’t have all the numbers covered.

Once I get ahead on a hand I want to make future paydays work for me by putting them on the table.  I feel compelled to put those winnings on the table because in my rails they can’t make more money for me.  So by leaving the money in my rails, I am costing myself money.  But I make sure I have locked up a specific profit first.

It is sort of like the Parable of the Talents.  The servants who used the talents to trade and gain profit were rewarded by the master.  The servant who hid his one talent returning it to the master was scolded.  Furthermore, the servants who made a profit doubled the talents with which they started, making a profit equal to their original talents.

At the end of a hand if I have double what I have on the table I am very happy.

@skinny. Love it! I do similar but not with a hard methodology behind it, except for a progression schedule; this is beyond that!  I’m going to study this and make some adjustments!  Thanks!

Don

Well put Skinny!

Dom

Skinny;

     I still love the post you wrote on making money on the 10-20 roll hand.

     I have used your philosophy on securing a win early in the roll. It is a good balance for me between my taste for action and my desire to win. It keeps the game moving fast and The Big Skinny puts me on automatic pilot.

     Thanks for all your great posts.

Posted by: @doughboy

Skinny;

     I still love the post you wrote on making money on the 10-20 roll hand.

     I have used your philosophy on securing a win early in the roll. It is a good balance for me between my taste for action and my desire to win. It keeps the game moving fast and The Big Skinny puts me on automatic pilot.

     Thanks for all your great posts.

Skinny – can you find that post and re-post? It was GREAT!

thanks

Dom

@dominator

I looked for it and could not find it. I think it was in the wisdom forum and I don’t see those posts on the new website.

Darn

Doughboy – did you print it out or could you explain what Skinny said to do?

DOm

@dominator  

Dom,

Does Preachers post apply to the 3x 4x 5x odds game?

High Arc

Posted by: @high-arc

@dominator  

Dom,

Does Preachers post apply to the 3x 4x 5x odds game?

 

High Arc

Probably not because he starts with 3X odds and I know he plays mostly in the south where there are many 10X or more odds.

But it really doesn’t matter, how mush you take in odds to begin with should be a factor of your bankroll

Dom

Dom;

     I will give it my best shot bowing to any corrections Skinny would make to my depiction.  

   The mathematical reality of anyone that loves this game is that many of our rolls will be in the 10-20 roll range. How do we turn  these into winning hands?

    Limiting risk is the key. By playing the Big Skinny we use a pass line and a maximum of two come bets and wait for two collections before putting any more at risk. By avoiding the seven and throwing repeaters we build a winning hand quickly. By waiting to put more at risk we quickly establish a winning roll, and hold onto it. Making the point is secondary. This requires patience and a taming of the internal gambler.

     As the roll progresses I introduce more funds from my winnings rather than my rack. If I can hold back the urge to introduce more of my bankroll to risk, I can build on my win as described previously by Skinny. The amount of odds taken is strictly a question of bankroll as they are an even bet with the house.

     We all drool for that 40-50 roll hand. Mathematical truth speaks differently. Knowing what to do with that roll when it comes has to be decided ahead of time. In the meantime, turning the 10-20 roll hand into a winner has been made into a mathematical art form by the Big Skinny. Variance is limited, excitement may be limited, but winning regularly is emphasized.

     This is why I have always loved GTC. Give me the truth about this game and I can deal with the risk with my eyes wide open. If you want to do crazy, be my guest. Just don’t claim to be a victim when the math comes to bite you in the backside.

   Using this system Skinny always knows where he is at in his hand. Advantage play is not for everyone. It is a process in discipline. Thanks  to Dom and Skinny and to those I’ve learned from. DoughBoy

Doughboy, you are right on.  Thanks for you input.  Well done.

Well done!

Dom

DoughBoy,

I would not add a thing. You said it well. 

One thing from reading this again – In class I say if you want to be aggressive, wait for the two wins/full collections, (not just a win if you put out a comebet and you throw an 11-that is not a full collection), before you put out another come bet/4th working bet – (passline and 3 come bets)

And if you want to be conservative, wait for 3 full collections before you put out that 3rd comebet or 4th working bet.

Just wanted to clarify

Dom

I like it when that third come bet stays up on the come for a few rolls tho .

Good Rolling.

Posted by: @dominator

Posted by: @doughboy

Skinny;

     I still love the post you wrote on making money on the 10-20 roll hand.

     I have used your philosophy on securing a win early in the roll. It is a good balance for me between my taste for action and my desire to win. It keeps the game moving fast and The Big Skinny puts me on automatic pilot.

     Thanks for all your great posts.

Skinny – can you find that post and re-post? It was GREAT!

 

thanks

Dom

 

I found the post in the Wisdom forum.  It was still on the new website.  Here is the link: