When you say glass top, are you saying you are throwing on glass?

Dom

I ditto Dom’s question & also where will you throw from since a possible game screen will be in the way

High Arc

Posted by: @dominator

When you say glass top, are you saying you are throwing on glass?

Dom

Dom, yes, it’s the table that was previewed at the gaming convention last year.  Several casinos have them now, including one I played in NC.  There is a film on the glass that lets the dice settle down vs. a pure glass top.  There are 10 positions around the table with only one dealer/stick position being where the bowman would be.  There is no stick position so the SL1 and SR1 positions are next to each other.  The glass has a projection of the layout underneath, shows all bets as they’re made, then quiesces as the timer expires and the table shows “DICE OUT”.  The dealer/stick then sends the dice for you to shoot.  After the dealer enters the roll into his screen, the dice are shown on the layout and the timer begins again while players make their bets.

Let me know if you want to see pics of the one I played on.

Posted by: @high-arc

I ditto Dom’s question & also where will you throw from since a possible game screen will be in the way

 

High Arc

The game screen looks like it would be hard to shoot over, but it’s actually not.  A dealer told me that 2 more were on order.  Also New Buff MI has 1 I heard.  Several have been shown on FB of the IA tables as well.

Roll to Win Craps

Roll to Win Craps from Aruze Gaming was the talk of the Global Gaming Expo (G2E) this year. The new semi-automated craps game that replaces felt with a table-length LED display caused quite a stir.

Here is the best video I found that demonstrates this table.  At the start of the video they demonstrate the electronic roulette wheel.  You can skip that part if you like.  The craps section begins around 3:45 into the video.  They give a bit of an explanation about the surface towards the last few minutes of the video. 

There is only one dealer running the table and you will notice that stick person stands where the box usually sits.  Thus SL1 and SR1 are next to each other opposite the stick/box/dealer.  The players stand at the typical positions opposite the box and at both ends of the table. 

Click on the following link:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXB7yNuihrM

It looks like there are also 2 player positions, one on each side of the stick/box/dealer.

So the 10 positions on the table are as follows:

2 positions on either side of where the stick normally would be standing.

2 positions each on both ends of the table

1 position each at the end of the side where the dealer stands.

These 5 positions are on both sides of the table for a total of 10 player positions.

Thanks for searching out the video

I HATE IT!

Dom

For me it all depends on how the surface reacts. If it works well for us then this solves a lot of the typical problems. 

It eliminates late bets, hands in the way. No chips in the landing zone. Players can’t try to squeeze in to play. There are only spots where there are screens with which to bet. This table limits that to 10. No more arguments over bets or pay outs. 

This could be really good for us if it reacts like a normal table. 

Possibly right Skinny.

Dom

Wow. I’m old and getting older !    The only good thing I can think about this, is no accidental screw ups from the dealers.   I might have to get a piece of glass and  tape post it notes to it  to practice?  ha ha.  From self driving cars and this ! Really feel like I’m becoming extinct. 

If it would be good for us the casino would not change . Like they did with the machine craps that I use to play on . That machine was replaced with one that was in their favor .

Good Rolling.

Hate to lose the anonymity when taking a good size win to the cage. Not that I would ever try to cheat “Uncle” of his fair share. With tickets knowing the buy in and cash out. Guess I’d have to see it in real life

As Rose and Doc were discussing these new tables, we both had a few thoughts concerning where we might stand if the glass tops do have a little “sticky” on the surface to make certain of a decent bounce. 

!.  There are five spots on each side of the table, which just might open up the possibility of 3 spots that we just might be able to roll from.  As an example, remember there are five spots on each side of the table.  A right handed person could roll from the traditional SL1 position as well as SL2 assuming SL2 is not too far down on a 14 foot table.  The third spot would be on the SR side across the table  where the dealer would normally stand–this should place this roller approximately the same distance as the SL1 roller.  The reverse would be the same for a lefty.  Remember there is only one employee (the stick man/woman) at a table and he/she is positioned where the box man would normally be seated.  

2.  One hazard with these tables is the fact that the “screen” where bets are made and wins/loses are recorded, might make the rail very wide and difficult to roll from.  Doc and Rose are pretty tall so this might not be as big an issue for them.  

Just a couple of random thoughts.  We welcome others.

Rose and Doc

Posted by: @dominator

Thanks for searching out the video

 

I HATE IT!

Dom

Dom, Don’t hate it until you try it!!!  Seriously, first hand on this table was a 24!  As I noted previously, the VIG on the win is horrible, but overall, the conditions with regards to where SL1 and SR1 are is quite nice, no stick or chips in the way!  You really need to try one!  Come on up to Cherokee!

Posted by: @dr-crapology

As Rose and Doc were discussing these new tables, we both had a few thoughts concerning where we might stand if the glass tops do have a little “sticky” on the surface to make certain of a decent bounce. 

!.  There are five spots on each side of the table, which just might open up the possibility of 3 spots that we just might be able to roll from.  As an example, remember there are five spots on each side of the table.  A right handed person could roll from the traditional SL1 position as well as SL2 assuming SL2 is not too far down on a 14 foot table.  The third spot would be on the SR side across the table  where the dealer would normally stand–this should place this roller approximately the same distance as the SL1 roller.  The reverse would be the same for a lefty.  Remember there is only one employee (the stick man/woman) at a table and he/she is positioned where the box man would normally be seated.  

2.  One hazard with these tables is the fact that the “screen” where bets are made and wins/loses are recorded, might make the rail very wide and difficult to roll from.  Doc and Rose are pretty tall so this might not be as big an issue for them.  

Just a couple of random thoughts.  We welcome others.

Rose and Doc

Spot on, Doc regarding the spots available to you.  You’ll need to practice a short shot as the #1 positions are incredibly close to the wall!!!  Since I practice SL2 already (my primary venue opens 14′ tables first) I could do table stations 1 (base right dealer), 5, 6, possibly 7.

Regarding the screens, not as bad as you’d think.

Posted by: @hardnine

Interesting thought on an adjustment that could be made regarding player vs. staffing levels at casinos when they open.

I’ve played on the new glass-topped craps table with electronic betting, no chips on the layout.  Actually plays nice, but some interesting rules programmed in (like the VIG on the buy is calculated ON THE WIN), but I digress.

Although it would take some doing, this could be an opportunity for the casinos to retrofit the tables with electronic betting stations around the existing tables.  They could be disinfected far easier when the player changes than disinfecting the chips, which is negated within minutes anyway.

I did see one mention alongside the document that Wynn published, that appears that the only thing they’d missed was the chips issue.  I believe that the governor or commission had stated that chips had to be addressed in the plans to open.

The glass-topped table uses only one dealer, but I’ve heard a rumor that a casino got taken when a  dealer and single player hooked up and basically robbed the casino (the stick/dealer at base position on that table hand-inputs the dice, so could easily not enter the 7’s that show while there are no other players at the table).  If you had two dealers or stick/box managing the game on existing tables and electronic betting, most of that issue can be solved, and they save 2 positions.

Thoughts?

I would think they could use the “eye in the sky” to solve that problem. All card games have a single dealer. It is easy for a BJ dealer to miscount a hand and make a losing hand a winner. They don’t for fear of being caught on camera. Management can always review dealers with the games being captured on camera. They could do it sporadically as regular surveillance or if they are suspicious of a specific dealer. 

Posted by: @skinny

Posted by: @hardnine

Interesting thought on an adjustment that could be made regarding player vs. staffing levels at casinos when they open.

I’ve played on the new glass-topped craps table with electronic betting, no chips on the layout.  Actually plays nice, but some interesting rules programmed in (like the VIG on the buy is calculated ON THE WIN), but I digress.

Although it would take some doing, this could be an opportunity for the casinos to retrofit the tables with electronic betting stations around the existing tables.  They could be disinfected far easier when the player changes than disinfecting the chips, which is negated within minutes anyway.

I did see one mention alongside the document that Wynn published, that appears that the only thing they’d missed was the chips issue.  I believe that the governor or commission had stated that chips had to be addressed in the plans to open.

The glass-topped table uses only one dealer, but I’ve heard a rumor that a casino got taken when a  dealer and single player hooked up and basically robbed the casino (the stick/dealer at base position on that table hand-inputs the dice, so could easily not enter the 7’s that show while there are no other players at the table).  If you had two dealers or stick/box managing the game on existing tables and electronic betting, most of that issue can be solved, and they save 2 positions.

Thoughts?

I would think they could use the “eye in the sky” to solve that problem. All card games have a single dealer. It is easy for a BJ dealer to miscount a hand and make a losing hand a winner. They don’t for fear of being caught on camera. Management can always review dealers with the games being captured on camera. They could do it sporadically as regular surveillance or if they are suspicious of a specific dealer. 

Probably how they got caught, right?  They could probably work on getting the system to look for conditions to alert as well as physical eyes.  At the one I’ve played on, they’re using black/near black dice and they’re surprisingly easy to lose on certain parts of the layout, likely even harder for eyes in the sky to pick up quickly. 

All part of development of a “new” game?

You are right –  I shouldn’t hate it till I tried it

Dom

Dom I tried the machine craps that they had in my state and liked it when I could set the dice and throw them . I would go with 20.00 and play while the wife would play VP . My two longest roll were in the 60s and they only last a week . You see they would record the last highest roll till some one beat it or they had to reboot  the machine .

i could play for 4 or 5 hrs on that money and even win some . With getting points too .Now they have the bubble machine which is a lot different to play and they changed the points too. So I no longer play it .You should know that things change all the time since in your line of work they are changing all the time .

I hope that the changes will be good for us .

Good Rolling.

So do I Finisher!

Dom

I just really hope Craps as we know it isn’t dead … Not the same game with all these supposed changes. Not the same personal feel. Handling chips while symbolic was tactile and machines can’t replace feel. Much like books vs electronic readers. Nothing like the feel and smell of a paper book. Think about it, you have a $1500 win after spending 50 minutes at the table and celebrate with a pic posted to this site. All those “Chips” in your hand with a big smile on your face. Now replace that with a computer receipt. not the same affect.

This all sounds very interesting. The game would move much more quickly, since there would be no delays caused by waiting on the dealer to make the payouts and placing new bets. I wonder if a “no role” is automatic if the dice don’t hit the wall. 

Points will be automatically recorded, too, I suspect – much like they are on slot machines. I also wonder if these electronic tables allow a Doey-Don’t bet, which could be used to inflate points, as would a DC bet with a Place bet.

All told, having only a stickman and having a faster game will mean more money for the casino, for sure. I can’t say I will miss the dealers.

Preacher Hi You made point in your post that I discussed in depth with Skinny to no end . He did not get it . But you may think other wise . It boiled down to were some used the doey don’t system to play on a machine in a casino that I played at . So I say them doing it even tho I did not play it . They some times would play 4 or 6 spots when playing . At that time they would get one point for every 5.00 play . Money in money out as they say . They would get to 7 Star by doing this . Now there are different machines there along with a pay out in points of one point for 200.00 in and out instead .

Since Skinny is a math guy I thought that he would understand what I was saying but he did not get that since he is not into the point thing . At a real craps table the system does not work since the pit considers the two bets off set each other were the machine was not programed that way . It just payed the point when the 5.00 went in or out period . 

The 12 is were you have trouble with this but if there are few you end with many points with no loss of money . 

I went there since the wife was going to play VP and I would play the craps . It let you set the dice and throw them which I liked . It was fun and I did have two rolls in the 60s for a record that lasted one week .

Good Rolling,

Sorry Finisher but I am not the one who does not understand.  The ones who don’t understand the math of the game are the pit critters who won’t count the money bet on the doey-don’t because they think they offset each other and anyone else who plays it thinking they are putting one over on the casino.

The house edge on a don’t pass wager is 1.36%.

The house edge on a pass line wager is 1.41%.

The house edge on a doey-don’t wager is 1.389%.  It’s approximately half way between the don’t and pass wagers because the 1 time in 36 that you lose on the do when the 12 appears will cost you money in the long run.

In all cases the house should give you equal credit for all money wagered on any 3 of these bets because in the long run you will lose approximately the same amount of money for the same amount of money wagered.

To prove my point let’s take a look at how much you can expect to lose for the same amount of money wagered on all 3 bets if you make the bet 3960 times.

If you bet $10 on the don’t 3960 times you will wager a total of $39,600.  You can expect to win your bet 1,953 times and lose it 2,007.  You can expect to lose the bet 54 times more than you win it for a net loss of $540.  $540/$39,600=.0136%

If you bet $10 on the pass line 3960 times you will wager a total of $39,600.  You can expect to win your bet 1,952 times and lose it 2,008.  You can expect to lose the bet 56 times more than you win it for a net loss of $560.  $560/$39,600=.0141%

If you bet $5 on the do and $5 on the don’t 3960 times you will wager a total of $39,600.  You can expect the 12 to come up once every 36 times or 3960/36=110.  You can expect to lose $5 for each of those 110 twelves losing $550.  $550/$39,600=.01389%

In other words the casino’s expected win from you is either $540,$550 or $560 approximately the same for $39,600 money in whether you bet the pass, don’t or doey-don’t.  They should be giving you the same amount of points for any of those 3 types of wagers.

If people were getting to 7 star too easily it wasn’t because they were playing the doey-don’t if it was only based on money in.  They could have gotten there just as easily playing the pass or don’t by itself.

You said they raised the amount needed to get 1 point from $5 to $200.  Obviously someone decided they set the money in level too low.  That’s more likely the reason people were getting to 7 star too easily.     

Let’s try looking at this another way. 

How many points do you need to make 7 star?

Approximately how much do you think a 7 star rating is worth?

If they gave you 1 point for $5 pass wager, your expected loss is 7 cents on that wager.  Multiply 7 cents times the points needed to make 7 star and you may be able to see how little it cost to make it on the old system.

At $200 money in to earn 1 point it would cost approximately $2.82 per point.  It now is much more expensive to make 7 star.

When those 12s come up during a roll that is not a come out roll does it not matter at that point . I don’t know if they hedged their bet on the come out roll or not tho .

It takes 150,000 points for 7 Star and then there are different levels also . I think it cost them less on the craps machine then on Slots .I may be wrong with this thinking but they did change the machine along with the new points that they give you . I use to get any were of 5 to 25 points playing with 20.00 for several hours while the wife play VP .

I have not seen another machine like they took out .

Also if you get more points in one 24 hr. period they give you more points .I think it starts at 500 points you get 125 extra , at 1,000 you get 1,000 extra . this may have helped them also . Others may know about getting more then that like when you get 5,000 points in one day .

I understand that most casinos just rate the flat bet but some use prop bets too . It varys from casino to casino as far as I know . It seems that it is getting harder to get points period . They know the math just like you do .

I have not seen ANY of those 7 STARS that use to play that machine not even in the casino at any of the other machines or even at the gift giveaways . Even tho I use to see them there . just saying .

Good Rolling.

Yes, the 12s only hurt your don’t bet on a come out roll.  Never the less you can still expect to see one 12 every 36 rolls on the come out and that is where the house gets its edge on the doey-don’t.

If we just look at needing 150,000 points to get to 7 Star without the additional points this would be a worst case scenario.  In that situation you would need $750,000 of money in to get to 7 Star if you needed $5 money in to get 1 point. 

A player could expect to lose a bit over $10,000 with $750,000 of money in playing any of the 3 ways (pass, don’t or doey-don’t) I discussed above.

If you needed $200 money in to get 1 point you would need $30 million of money in to get to 7 Star.  You could expect to lose over $400 thousand for that kind of money in.   

Posted by: @skinny

If you bet $10 on the don’t 3960 times you will wager a total of $39,600.  You can expect to win your bet 1,953 times and lose it 2,007.  You can expect to lose the bet 54 times more than you win it for a net loss of $540.  $540/$39,600=.0136%

I made a mistake on the don’t.  I forgot about the push on the 12.  The don’t paragraph should read:

If you bet $10 on the don’t 3960 times you will wager a total of $39,600.  You can expect to win your bet 1,898 times, lose it 1,952 times and push the bet 110 times. You can expect to lose the bet 54 times more than you win it for a net loss of $540.  $540/$39,600=.0136%

Skinny I am missing something here  . I bet both bets and the roll last 4 rolls and I either win or loose either way and get the points  right . Forget about the 12 for now . The 39,000.00 that I bet I got back betting the other bet but still got the points with the money going in . Or am I missing some thing here . It just seemed like a lot of work to me . They would bet one way on one machine and the other way on a different machine . There were 12 machines that you could play on .It was 6 on each side of the screen .

That  would  be like 3,900 points plus the extra if you got them in 24 hr. period which was not hard .

They liked short rolls mostly for that reason . 

What you seem to have trouble understanding is that the one time out of 36 that the 12 comes out is when you will lose money and that is enough to make the bet no different than a pass line or don’t pass line bet as far as how much you can expect to lose with it.

Like I said if you bet the pass line 3960 times you can expect to win your bet 1,952 times and lose it 2,008.  You will only have 56 losses out of 3960 wagers.  If you bet $10 each time you will get credit for 3960 $10 wages and only expect to lose $560.  It is like you will be breaking even for 70 bets in a row by alternating wins and losses and then have 2 losses in a row. 

Similar to the way you break even 35 bets in a row with the doey-don’t and then you lose 1 of your 2 bets on the 36th roll when the 12 shows up. 

If you bet $5 on the do and $5 on the don’t 3960 times in a row you will get the same amount of credit for having bet $10 on a line bet 3960 times.  The first 35 rolls will cost nothing since you will win one bet and lose the other.  But on the 36th roll you will push one bet and lose the other costing you $5.  This will happen 110 times in 3960 rolls costing you $550.

In both cases you get credit for the same amount of money in and in both cases you can expect to lose almost the same amount of money.  You expect to lose $560 with the pass line bet and $550 with the doey-don’t wager.

You can expect to lose $10 approximately every 71 rolls with the pass line wager.

You can expect to lose $10 approximately every 72 rolls with the doey-don’t wager.

Right on Skinny!

Posted by: @skinny

Yes, the 12s only hurt your don’t bet on a come out roll.  Never the less you can still expect to see one 12 every 36 rolls on the come out and that is where the house gets its edge on the doey-don’t.

If we just look at needing 150,000 points to get to 7 Star without the additional points this would be a worst case scenario.  In that situation you would need $750,000 of money in to get to 7 Star if you needed $5 money in to get 1 point. 

A player could expect to lose a bit over $10,000 with $750,000 of money in playing any of the 3 ways (pass, don’t or doey-don’t) I discussed above.

If you needed $200 money in to get 1 point you would need $30 million of money in to get to 7 Star.  You could expect to lose over $400 thousand for that kind of money in.   

We definitely need a laughing my ass off Emoji on top of the “like” !!!!!  Only $30M?!?!?!?!?!

To Preacher’s note on automatically recording the roll and sensing the hit of the backwall, you’re talking about a huge increase in the cost of the table.  Right now, it’s just a display, but now you’re talking sensors under every spec of the table as well as within the rubber; not a cheap thing.  Having the stick record the roll works, just need security to keep a constant eye on the situation.

Skinny

My only experience with the Dewy Donts was at a CT casino. They have a 2,3,4 times points one night a month. 2x from 7-8, 3x from 8-9 and 4x from 9-10pm.
There were 5 guys that were betting the table max ($3k each) on the do and don’t and putting $100 on the 12 on come out rolls.
The boxman was visibly pissed at the whole thing. The goal of these 5 guys was to slow play as much as possible, late bets, drink before throwing, taking extra time to set dice, etc.
I had two 25+ rolls back to back and did very well that night.

I never understood the do/don’t betting, looks like a lot of work for little return.
I have never been someone who plays for comps, they are just an added bonus, I would rather win cash.

My question is, if you are getting 4x comp points, does it make sense to put $25 or $100 on the do/don’t and do my usual come betting with odds?
THanks for your wisdom and stay safe.

The table definitely looks futuristic.  I think it may give me a headache if I play it too long, but I’m willing to give it a try.

CliffM1 Since you had 2 25 rolls you should have had one come out 12 for a win on their 100.00 bet on that 12 which I am sure you would have remembered it . 

I think at a real craps game the casino does not give you points for what was going on except for maybe the bet on the 12 which depends on the casino .

Since I am a low roller I get most of my points for time at tables not the bets for their amounts . I think that they look at what you have at risk and for how long . I heard one player ask what his rating was because they had a point challenge going on and the dealer told him 700.00 an hour . 

He is a black chip player .

You made a lot more money then they did just look at it that way . Unless they made other bets .

Good Rolling 

Skinny I went back to see how I did on some practice rolls . With looking at 2,861 rolls there were 75 rolls that were 12 with 16 of them being come out roll . I also went back and looked at rolls in roll recorder but did not know how many were on the come out . But that was 9,781 rolls with 269 of them being 12s . I don’t know if that is good nor bad . You know more about that then I do . I don’t know how many 12s are to be expected on the come out rolls of that many numbers or how many come out roll there should be in that number of rolls .

Any help would be great . If I just 2x the number of rolls that I looked at and did the same for the 16 that I saw it would be less then you said I think . Those that played for the points hoped for short rolls also just to let you know . I think their reason was so the points would add up were in long rolls less points . 

I like real craps and would never play like these guys play period but I did see them make a lot of points while I got vary few . 

Good Rolling.

Finisher,

A random roller can expect one 12 in every 36 rolls.  So to determine how many 12s to expect you divide the total rolls by 36.

2861/36=79.5   75 rolls is slightly less than random but certainly within the range one would expect.

9781/36=271.7  269 is dead on what you could expect for a random roll.

Posted by: @cliffm1

Skinny

My only experience with the Dewy Donts was at a CT casino. They have a 2,3,4 times points one night a month. 2x from 7-8, 3x from 8-9 and 4x from 9-10pm.
There were 5 guys that were betting the table max ($3k each) on the do and don’t and putting $100 on the 12 on come out rolls.
The boxman was visibly pissed at the whole thing. The goal of these 5 guys was to slow play as much as possible, late bets, drink before throwing, taking extra time to set dice, etc.
I had two 25+ rolls back to back and did very well that night.

cliffm1,

I’m going to answer your question in two parts.  First I want to discuss what these high rollers were doing because I think it can be a teachable moment for several folks on this board.

The first lesson to be learned is that just because a player bets a lot of money it does not mean he is a smart player or that he knows what he is doing.  All it means is that he has a lot of money.

These guys were clearly playing for comps, not to win money.  While that was their first mistake it certainly was not their only one.  Because they could not even do that right.

The boxman has some influence into the rating you get which translates into the comps one earns while at the table.  By pissing him off they were cutting off their nose to spite their faces.  He could cut them back on the amount of time he decided to give them because of their slow play.  He could decide to reduce the level of their bets because they were playing the doey-don’t.  He should not because the theoretical loss is the same for the doey-don’t as for a pass or don’t pass line bet.  But a lot of boxmen don’t understand that.  There is a prejudice against the doey-don’t because many don’t think the house has an edge with it.  Many players and casino personnel have this misconception.  It is also a lot more work for the dealers when you are playing the doey-don’t.  That makes them angry and it leads to an unpleasant game.  You always want the crew and pit critters on your side when you are playing.

Now let’s look at what they were risking for these comps.  By betting $3000 on the pass line and $3000 on the don’t pass line they should get credit for $6000 at risk.  As long as they did not roll a 12 the bets would offset each other.  They would win one way and lose the other for a net loss of 0.  When they rolled a 12 the don’t bet would be a push (they keep the $3000 on the don’t) and they would lose the $3000 on the pass line wager.  Since you can expect one 12 every 36 rolls their expected loss on the doey-don’t is $3000 for every 36X$6,000=$216,000 wagered.  The house edge on that bet is 3000/216000=1.389%.

As for the hedge bet on the 12, they could expect to lose $100 for 35 rolls when they don’t get a 12 and then win $3000 on the 36th roll when the 12 does appear if the bet pays 30-1.  They would lose $3500 and offset it with a $3000 win for a net $500 loss every 36 rolls.  The house edge on that bet is 500/3600=13.89%.  This is 10 times worse than their bet on the doey-don’t.

Their hedge bet against the 12 is not hedging them against anything.  In fact it is only adding another wager that is 10 times more costly than the bet they are trying to protect.

All together they would be risking $219,600 every 36 rolls for an expected loss of $3,500.  The overall house edge for all their bets would be 3500/219600=1.59%.

There is no justification for the $100 hedge bet on the 12, that is just a pure waste of money.  But they might argue that they can get credit for $6,000 with the doey-don’t.  But if they bet the pass line by itself they could only bet the table max of $3,000. 

Well if money is no object a better way to accomplish their objective would be to play table max $3000 on the pass line and table max $6000 each place bet on the 6 and 8.  This way they could get credit for $15,000 on each roll with a house edge of 1.41% on the pass line and 1.5% on the place bets.  The overall house edge for this combination of bets would be 1.48%.

I don’t want anyone on this board to think this is a smart way to play for comps.  I am only demonstrating that since these high rollers were going to do that anyhow, there was a much better way for them to accomplish their objective.

Posted by: @cliffm1

 

I never understood the do/don’t betting, looks like a lot of work for little return.
I have never been someone who plays for comps, they are just an added bonus, I would rather win cash.

My question is, if you are getting 4x comp points, does it make sense to put $25 or $100 on the do/don’t and do my usual come betting with odds?
THanks for your wisdom and stay safe.

cliffm1,

You need to read my posts above and on the previous page about the doey-don’t.  In those posts I explain in great detail how you can expect to lose the same amount of money with the doey-don’t as you would if you bet the same amount on the pass line by itself or the don’t pass by itself.  You don’t break even with the doey-don’t like most people seem to think because the 1 time in 36 that the 12 shows up costing you your wager on the pass line is enough to make the loss on that combination of bets almost identical to the pass or don’t pass by themselves.  If you have difficulty following or believing it then you just have to take my word for it plain and simple.

To understand why it is a bad idea to play for comps, even at 4x comp points you need to understand how casinos determine your comps.

Every casino has a formula for determining comp value which is a closely guarded secret from the players and other casinos.  Each one tweaks the formula a bit depending on the clientele and other factors.  But I guarantee you that all casinos are basing it in some way or another on the theoretical loss.  In other words they are basing it on the amount of money you bet, length of time you play and types of bets you make.  They use those factors to determine how much a random player would be expected to lose.  It does not matter how much you actually win or lose.  It is all based on the theoretical loss because in the long run the individual wins and losses average out to the theoretical loss.  Then they give back some of that player loss (casino profit) in the form of comp dollars.  It is normally a factor, something like 10, 20, 30 or 40% of the theoretical loss.  Then you have to realize that things they give you with comp dollars would never cost as much if you were paying with real dollars.  For example, they would charge you the rack rate for a comped room at $200 or $300 a night that only costs $70 or $100 at the casino rate if you were paying with real money.

Most reasonable casinos are probably giving back about 25% of your theoretical loss in comp dollars.  So at 4x points you are breaking even with the casino in that they are giving you your entire theoretical loss back in comp dollars.  But if you lost the theoretical loss it was with real dollars.  The comp dollars they give you back are not as valuable as real dollars.

This is why it never pays to play for comps.  Take all the comps they give you as free stuff.  But do not make bad bets or make a single bet larger than you would normally just to earn more comps.  you can never beat the casino at that game.  There are ways to work the comp system and that is fine as long as it does not cost you anything to do it.  But that is a much longer discussion and a lot harder now that computers are taking over more from the hosts and pit. 

Skinny, your explanation really does explains several things:

1.  the doey/don’t is really not a good bet.  And it really only draws attention to yourself.  Simply said don’t do it.

2.  Hedge betting is also bad.  You are making 2 bets with a negative edge.  Does that make any sense?

Rose and Doc really miss you.  Would love to see you over a class weekend (or any other time).  You are missed by everyone.

Rose and Doc

@skinny

Words to live by!

Thank you Skinny!

Dom

Skinny

I am new to dice.  I only play the basic high player edge game.  The interesting part about that do/don’t night for me was that was the night I made the last money I needed for my trip to the Vegas Class in February.  I started with a $300 buy in and cashed out just over $1800.  In about 2 months I bank rolled a little over $5k to pay for the Vegas trip.  Getting world class instruction at the start of my dice career is working for me.  With everything being closed it has giving me a chance to perfect all the basics. I am excited about the progress in my first year of throwing dice and look forward to the next refresher class and getting to a real casino soon.

Thanks for your input, it is always appreciated.

Skinny for those 2.861 rolls there were 75 12s but only 16 were a loss for the Dewy dont system .

I agree with all that you have said that it is a losing system as far as math goes . I can see why they made points with it since the 12 does not come up on every come out roll for the loss . I looked back at rolls that I had done and am sure that a lot of the 12s would not be a loss for the system and also see that the hedge bet is a black hole that one would be getting into real fast with little wins to off set it .

With 2,861 rolls even if you had 100 come out rolls during that session it is a lot of money that you would have to recoup .I just used 100 for a sample to make it easy to see .That would put adv. at 20 rolls a hand which would be great but that puts you in a big hole I think that you can not get out of since you are not making bets that win . Just getting you points .

You do not say how many come out rolls can just be another point for you to try and roll . Every 12 is not going to be a looser in other words .Or am I MISSING SOME THING HERE .

What is the math say about how often will a 12 be on a come out roll for a loss for this system ? I guess that is what it comes down too .

On the part of points in a real crap game I think you will not make points since the casino thinks that the loss is not there .It may have years ago but not in this day and age . With the machine they are not programed for that .This is one reason they used 2 or 4 machines to play .

My point is that every 12 is not a loss to say . You could have lots of 12s during a point cycle like the example I gave to you .

Those guys hated the 12 when it came out on a come out roll but that was part of the game .

Just for food for thought I witness a lady play with just betting the 3 for a starting with 20.00 and cashed out just under 1,000.00  crazy some times . The math was no wear in her favor . To top it all off she was not rolling . She just sat there and bet the 3 all day .

Good Rolling.

Finisher

How many of your 2861 rolls were come out rolls?  Since you said 16 of the 12s were on come out rolls I would guess around 576 of your 2861 rolls were come out rolls. Most likely the rest were point cycle rolls. 

Eventually the 12 is going to show up one out of every 36 come out rolls. The math as I explained it will hold up over time. 

Skinny well I thought that would be easy to do till I started and then realized that when the 7,2,3 or 12 come out the next roll is still a come out roll . Well it ended up out of those 2,861 rolls 824 were come out rolls with 16 being 12s .There was a few that were 5 and 6 rolls long that I came across tho . I also looked at the 3s which I think was a lot 183 .

Had one come out roll that I threw 3 3s which made me look at how many I threw .

Good Rolling.

Skinny maybe throwing those 3s messed with the math a little . Since there were only 16 12s on come out rolls to the 22 that should have been there .

Good Rolling.

Good news at last.

Foxwoods and Mohegan will be opening on June 1st.

They are initially limiting entrance to residents of CT and RI.

One of the few times being from little RI is a good thing.

Just received an email that the Colorado Belle in Laughlin will NOT re open.  Makes me wonder how many more casualties of the COVID 19.   Lot of jobs will be lost for a big property like that. 

JackD.