LOVE IT!

Proves the point of what we talk about in class!

Dom

Thanks for sharing that with us MR.PIP. It is a slow process but the math always wins out. I’m not sure what you mean by your limiting strategy. Maybe you could explain that. Thanks

@ doughboy limiting exposure means the spread or bets I am will to sacrifice for a session .

Pipp,

Thank you your detailed year long experiment using Pass Line and Come betting, it proves that what we teach is the only way to go. It may be boring to many players (gamblers???), but the casinos hammer out their profits, day after day after day with their math advantage, which does not lie. It only goes to show that betting the low house edge bets and using the GTC advantage gained though practiced, can and will beat the casinos in the long run. No exotic bets such as STA, Fire, and other high edge bets like placing the 5 and as well as hop bets and hard ways to name only a few, may be exciting, but will drain your bank roll in a hurry. We are throwing back at the casino’s math advantage exactly what our developed skill and proper betting proves. Keep up the good work, we look forward to seeing you soon.

Rose and Doc

@Doc Amen. It was so interesting to see the ups and downs. But sticking to the plan and believing in your practiced throw, you will see it grow. Unfortunately many who know better, stray during the lows and crash and burn, just stick with the come and odds betting.

Great post to prove what I have been a believer in for a few years. I can’t remember when I last placed a number. I had great results the other day at MS which resulted in a good win. I do have a question for all: I had been throwing for awhile and had 5 numbers covered with come bets, having just about filled my chip rail when I made another point and on my next come out roll I threw a 7. All those good paying numbers were coming down, but MS allows me to "buy" them back for the price of the base come bet (in this case $50-$10 each). I quickly tossed 2 green chips to get them back up and on my next come out roll I started to question what I had just done- what if I throw another 7? Fortunately I didn’t and kept this going for awhile longer. So my question is should I " buy back" come bets to keep the payouts coming or start over?

"Dominator" wrote: LOVE IT!

Proves the point of what we talk about in class!

Dom

What was it we were talking about in class?? I must have missed something??? I just remember something about the any 7 bet. 😉 Just kidding Dom… Breath… and think, blue aura. 😀

Jason

I got bummed out on come bets awhile back . I did a post on one trip that I had that I decided to make only come bets . I had a great roll that ended with BOTH Dcers and place betters winning .I myself did not win much . I think I did make one or two come bets for a win . Since then I have made more come bets but still place some .
I think on this next trip I will try all come bets again . I did start placing the 7 on come out rools a little later in that roll to keep up my come bets which did give me those wins . That was after a loss on about 11 come bets .
The DC player was even thanking me .Which does not happen often . There was only one don’t player and he was on my side of table .
The dealers were helpful in telling me how much I needed to bet on the 7 to keep up my come bets first time I tried it was not enough .
So is it better to try to keep them up or is getting your odds back better . I was not trying to roll a 7 but I did have 7 or 8 come out 7s during that roll .
I also have had it just seems that I have had a lot of rolls that I roll like all 5 numbers then 7 out . I remember one session were this guy would bet across and take down each hit . He was real happy when I had roll all his numbers then 7ed out ,and it was 3 rolls in a row . I decided to quit after the 3rd roll just because I was not throwing repeaters .
I think I will limit myself to 2 come bets to start just incase that guy shows up . 😀 🙂
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

"MasterBlaster" wrote: Great post to prove what I have been a believer in for a few years. I can’t remember when I last placed a number. I had great results the other day at MS which resulted in a good win. I do have a question for all: I had been throwing for awhile and had 5 numbers covered with come bets, having just about filled my chip rail when I made another point and on my next come out roll I threw a 7. All those good paying numbers were coming down, but MS allows me to "buy" them back for the price of the base come bet (in this case $50-$10 each). I quickly tossed 2 green chips to get them back up and on my next come out roll I started to question what I had just done- what if I throw another 7? Fortunately I didn’t and kept this going for awhile longer. So my question is should I " buy back" come bets to keep the payouts coming or start over?

See if any of the following help answer your question:

http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8604&p=23873&hilit

http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10543&hilit

http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9790&p=27190&hilit

Great post but the Answer is NO!

Remember what we say in class, treat that come out 7 after all those comebets are up and the odds are coming back to you as a Christmas gift! Remember that if that 7 came out 1 roll sooner you would have lost all those bets. Just start all over with come bets. Your roll will not last forever.

Dom

Dom,
Thanks for the advice, I was getting a little lost in all the other options that were being mentioned in the posts recommended by Skinny. The NO answer is much easier and the Christmas gifts will be much appreciated.

Mr. Pip,

I want to make sure I understand how you are playing. This is my interpretation, please correct any errors I may have made.

You started with a $5000 bank roll and would buy in for $500 each session.

When playing one session you would place come bets on every roll, (I am assuming you also had money on the pass line with odds)?

One question I have is, would you place max odds on each bet? (going by a 3,4,5x odds table)

If my math is correct you would potentially have as much as $320 on the table.

I guess it comes down to how much odds were you taking?

Also, if you do not mind sharing what kind of practice rig do you have? I have the regular throwing and receiving station that Dom sells and I like it but I find that if I had a receiving station that is more designed like a craps table I would have more accurate results on my practice throws.

One other question, and if this is too personal I understand. What is your SRR?

I am very interested in learning more about this.

Thanks,

Jason

@ Drummer,
Ans to your questions:

1) Throwing station do you use?

I am using a first generation 25X25 receiving station re-felted with Dom’s latest felt and the throwing station I modified with a chip rail to practice my betting.

2) My practice SRR can range from 6.47 – 6.65 for my last 5000 rolls with-in the last 329 days. (I have a link on my profile)

3) Betting
I practice as if I am at my favorite local casino that offers 10 odds $10 table min

My strategy:
I use chips to represent an exposure unit counter. I am willing to risk 6 exposure units before ending the session.
1 White chip represents one exposure
5 Red chip represents 1/2 exposure
2 Red chip exposures equals 1 exposure.

I buy in for $1000.

For the Passline bet 5X odds (Add one to the exposure)
For the second bet I take 2.5X or 3X odds (Add one red chip to represent 1/2 exposure)
For the third bet I take 2.5X or 3X odds (Add one red chip to represent 1/2 exposure)

I try to first maintain 3 bets pressing the half exposures in play to one full exposure X5 odds. 2.5X -> 5X or 3X -> 5X.
A hit of a 6/8 whole bet reduces exposures by 1
A hit of a 5/9 whole bet reduces exposure by 1.5
A hit of a 4/10 whole bet reduces exposure by 2

Mr. PiP:
Thanks for the post, especially the graph. This gives some valuable insight into long term play. I noticed that between May 21st and August 23rd a loss of more than $10,000 occurred. I’m curious as to what you think contributed to that slump – was it just variation? or change in betting strategy? or what? Part of why I’m asking this is because I have experienced two (2) similar slumps. The first slump I traced to a grip problem that I had developed. When the grip problem was corrected, I was back on track. I am currently still in the second slump trying to figure out what has gone wrong and what I need to do to get back on track.

@bminus,

That is a great question. There were a few factors involved which put me in short slumps.

1) I was tweaking and experimenting with what if’s in my betting strategy.
2) I picked up a nasty grip habit it took me some time to break small split in the dice and the back swing was cocked a little.
3) Un-Expected life events, which cause my "head not to be clear" when my head is not clear it impacts my play and I lose focus (A weakness I need to work on).
4) I would practice tired (Not a good idea, always get sleep ) .

Now getting out of any slump is key. You have to clear your head, go back to basics on working on the grip, and the proper mechanics of the throw and seek out a GTC instructor for a tune-up or video elite.
In my case, I would booked a video elite tune-up session with BTK, NFF and Dom and Janus gave me some input on where I can improve and lastly I got some dam sleep.

Tune-up check-ins are very important even for some of the greatest crap shooters in the world. Like a batting coach, you need extra eyes that understand the 4 Rs under normal conditions. (2/5/2019 added an R)
R = Rotation – How are the dice rotating in the air (is there wobble, Split, lag ?)
R= Reaction = How are the dice reacting when they land on the table and bounce off the back wall before they come to rest.
R = Relationship = How far apart are the dice from each other. What are the showing pips telling you.
R = Results = Are you hitting points, was it an on axis shot or a lovely hard-way.

Mr. PiP:
Thanks for the detailed information. I will put it to good use.

Updated my results to date. Time re-felt. (I big hole is forming where my dice is landing and this is the tough felt) Dom do you have any of that good felt for sale for my 25 X 25 rig ? Mine is the 1st generation of rigs.

Updated my results to date. I focused on my grip for the last couple of days (back to basics) and hit the 50K mark in the simulation. I find the graph so interesting, looks like a stock market chart, I believe NFF mentioned this in class.
-Mr PiP

So is come betting better for you or worse?

Dom

Dom as you can see, come Betting is better all the way especially in the long run. No matter what you are doing come or pass line with odds is the way to go. Its so hard for my place betting fiends to believe, but I am sold on come betting and if your a great shooter and still place betting you are not making the money you should be, You are depositing the money in a bank with 3% interest vs 10% or 20% interest.

Yours truely,

Mr. PiP

Thank you for the test and the confirmation. I wish those on this site that are still place bettors would do this to prove it to themselves.

Dom

Pip—thank you for the positive confirmation that what we teach is the best was—and in out humble opinion the only way to play craps.

Look forward to seeing you soon.

Rose and Pat

True dedication to your game Mr. Pip’s Just hard work.

So I have a question .Why are you increasing your bye in ? I am thinking that my 200.00 bye in is not enough lately . I am thinking about a 400.00 bye in . My thought is that I have to little at risk at the start of roll and too much as roll goes on . I try to limit my bets to 2 come bets till I when some but it seems that when I have 3 or more come bets working and no come bet up I roll a 7 and loose ALL. Not getting the come bet win that I would have won the roll before . I really don’t like it when I get the last come bet up to cover all and the 7 comes up before I get a win or 2 .
I have not been rolling the same numbers lately .
I just started practicing the 3v set which has given me more repete numbers with some hard ways .
But this is just in a few rolls will have to see how it works in 5,000 rolls . 😀
Good Rolling.

Your buy in should have nothing to do with what you are willing to risk. What you have in your pocket and what your 401 G dictates is important. I buy in for different amounts all the time – having nothing to do with my 401 or what I am willing to risk.

So if you want to buy in for $200 or $400 just do it. This goes into the topic of stop/loss – which I hate – I hate because your stop loss should have nothing to do with your session at the table except for your mind/feeling you get with the amount you will lose on any given session. If you are playing with an edge you will eventually win. So have your loss be dictated by your risk of ruin mindset.

As far as your come betting and too little or too much – You haven’t been to a class in while so here is what is taught –

To begin any roll have three working bets – 2 come bets and your passline bet
Conservative –
After three collections go to a 4th working bet – after that what ever you feel
Aggressive
After 2 collections go to a 4th working bet
Super aggressive
use the Big Skinny – on collection to to the 4th working bet

Now if I don’t get a collection after 5 rolls I will put out a 4th working come bet because maybe those 2 that started were just outliers

Dom

I increased buy-in bet for the session to $1000 because I am taking more odds on my first three bets. The casino that I like to play at, allows for 10X odds, thus increasing my spread exposure. I also like to mimic exactly in practice what I would do in live play. The controls that I follow to end a session is not based on how much I win but more on protecting me from losses when fatigue sets in or when the conditions at the table are no longer favorable causing my advantage to decline.

MrPip, You say you are increasing your bets to $1000 . Assuming you are not increasing your base pass line and come bets (you have 10 x odds) and only increasing your odds, your advantage over the casino is increasing. You are not increasing your LONG RUN exposure since the odds have no house edge. The odds portion of your wager is in the long run at the worst, a break even proposition—the fact you seven out with odds on the table, is not a loss–as I learned from Goldfinger several years ago–this is simply a temporary hit to your bank roll. No problem, we will win in the long run.

Always remember the casino has a mathematical edge on every bet in the casino, with the exception of the odds bet. That is only one of two reasons the casinos win from everyone else but us GTC advantage players. The other reason is that they have a hugh bank roll maybe at large as $15 to $20 million perhaps even larger. This large bankroll gets the casino through those situations where a large jack pot is won.

Also important, the casino edge is a static mathematical certainty, always there against random rollers and slot players—no skill required. Our edge is one we created with a lot of practice, lessons, and dedication.

We need to remember we are now the casino with the long run advantage and that is why we play with our edge and play within our bankroll. We must do both.

This is one of the best threads I have seen in a long time. Thank you for posting it.

We look forward to seeing everyone in the casino soon.

Rose and Doc

"Finisher" wrote: So I have a question .Why are you increasing your bye in ? I am thinking that my 200.00 bye in is not enough lately . I am thinking about a 400.00 bye in . My thought is that I have to little at risk at the start of roll and too much as roll goes on . I try to limit my bets to 2 come bets till I when some but it seems that when I have 3 or more come bets working and no come bet up I roll a 7 and loose ALL. Not getting the come bet win that I would have won the roll before . I really don’t like it when I get the last come bet up to cover all and the 7 comes up before I get a win or 2 .
I have not been rolling the same numbers lately .
I just started practicing the 3v set which has given me more repete numbers with some hard ways .
But this is just in a few rolls will have to see how it works in 5,000 rolls . 😀
Good Rolling.

I don’t feel you need to increase your buy-in Finisher. More money won’t improve your game. I have won thousands with a one hundred dollar buy-in. I enjoy the game of Craps but I have just begun to educate myself and think in terms of a gambler. We have to be consistent in throwing to make the COME Bet pay off. We have to play relaxed and focused. If we no longer hear the voices in our head from Dom and the other instructors guiding our every toss, I recommend returning to the church of Golden Touch for a refresher.

I throw dice every day. I review the Youtube videos for Golden Touch. Review the books. I write down my simulated betting and plan my future betting. I use chips for my practice games. I do range of motion exercises for my arms. We train like athletes. I want to go in and win my money in the least amount of time before I get tired. This is just a few of my thoughts. Every day can feel like my first day at times but I just keep feeding the voices in my head and remember to have fun.

I love the line Cotton Lab- "We train like athletes!"

Keep up the good work
Dom

Cotton Lob, we are athletes. What you will realize after years of training and practice- is when the dice are "right". When practicing try to remember how your grip affected the outcome of the dice. It takes years to get the feel for the dice, but once you have it OMG. Whenever you have a good toss, ask yourself what did I do to affect that result. For myself after a few years of working with the masters ( No Field Five and Billy the Kid) it finally sunk in. Today all the years of training paid off. Using the 5 count and only come betting, preserved the bankroll. The only position I could get was SL 2.5 which on this 14" table was a little long for me. When the shooter at SL 1 7ed out he laid everything he had left on the 4. Now being a GTC player, this bet was strange to me. So I asked him what number he needed, to which he replied "anything but a four". Well as I gripped the dice and let them go–yes a hard 4. He was gone in a flash. This opened up SL1, for me the Holy Grail of table positions and Little Debbie was "blocking" at the other end keeping the landing zone clear for me( team play). I was totally in the zone, the dice felt perfect and it was hardway after hardway. It was a good roll, but Little Debbie and I colored up and walked away knowing that we had peaked — it was time to walk away. When your grip of the dice is perfect and you follow all the GTC doctrine, you will be an ATHLETE.

"MasterBlaster" wrote: Cotton Lob, we are athletes. What you will realize after years of training and practice- is when the dice are "right". When practicing try to remember how your grip affected the outcome of the dice. It takes years to get the feel for the dice, but once you have it OMG. Whenever you have a good toss, ask yourself what did I do to affect that result. For myself after a few years of working with the masters ( No Field Five and Billy the Kid) it finally sunk in. Today all the years of training paid off. Using the 5 count and only come betting, preserved the bankroll. The only position I could get was SL 2.5 which on this 14" table was a little long for me. When the shooter at SL 1 7ed out he laid everything he had left on the 4. Now being a GTC player, this bet was strange to me. So I asked him what number he needed, to which he replied "anything but a four". Well as I gripped the dice and let them go–yes a hard 4. He was gone in a flash. This opened up SL1, for me the Holy Grail of table positions and Little Debbie was "blocking" at the other end keeping the landing zone clear for me( team play). I was totally in the zone, the dice felt perfect and it was hardway after hardway. It was a good roll, but Little Debbie and I colored up and walked away knowing that we had peaked — it was time to walk away. When your grip of the dice is perfect and you follow all the GTC doctrine, you will be an ATHLETE.

MasterBlaster, I have experienced just recently in practice and play what you are talking about. After hundreds if not thousands of toss the feeling of the die rolling off the finger occurred. It did not happen over night. I talk to myself – "remember the feeling in the finger." What is to spot on the finger pad that that die sits on that results in the roll-off feeling. At first I thought it was one particular finger; hundreds of toss and weeks later I realized it was a different finger I needed to feel that feeling on for a perfect toss.
I placed a small piece of medical tape the size of an eraser head on the spot. I took a photo of the spot with an ink pen. I was so focused on that point. I jokingly emailed to my buddy (who ended up purchasing Golden touch Dice after being introduce to my practice rig) and asked if his future son in law the Plastic Surgeon could suck fat out of my fat finger pad. LOL
A friend once corrected my grip on a golf club many years ago and that small adjustment straightened out my drive. It was so simple yet the ball traveled straight and far. I have never forgotten that moment.

I updated my progress. I am at 75K, now about buy-in, I always buy in at $1000, part of that money is fluff money that is never at risk but used to assist in my comp rating as I always color out and make sure they log what I colored out for and calculate my average bet.

Being new to the game (primer), I have been following the recommended GTC way of betting and playing. I have only been making come bets and using the 5 count on random rollers. So far I have been doing well at the casinos. I’ve been in the money at the end of each session. Now that I have more knowledge of the game and have followed Mr. Pip’s simulation recently, it has helped me with my betting. Thanks Mr. Pip.

High Arc

Hi Arc,

It is a pleasure to see that you are starting off your dice voyage on the correct betting path. Looking forward to seeing you in future classes or at the Tables. We are here to help you in anyway you need. Stay tune for more updates.

-Mr PiP.

Awesome to see your simulation progress. I have been a 5 count, PL/come better since the seminar in Memphis this year. This betting style certainly protects your bankroll from point/out. I will talk with you more about this next month in Vegas. Thanks for keeping us posted on the progress.

Dang Mr Pip

That chart really took off the last few months! Thanks for sharing the information. From the looks of that chart you will have over 100k before December.

Thanks Jack D., the last couple of months I have been tuning my shot and adjusted the come betting odds to my player’s edge. I also noticed that I was averaging about 4K in simulated earnings a week (more or less approximately 21-25 sessions). I did a preliminary live test in Vegas (I was able to do 22 sessions, a near weeks worth of sessions 3 per day) and I am happy to report and my host can verify that the experiment prediction and the live play actual matched in earnings. Currently, I am nearing the 100K mark in simulated earnings. Why would you ever, ever ever want to do any other bet then come betting with odds when you have a proficient throw.

-Mr. PiP

I updated my progress. Today I hit the 100K milestone, my buy-in is still at $1000. I bet according my favorite casino that offer’s 10x odds. Looking at the results I was noticing earning close to 4K per week playing on average of 3 sessions a day. So I was able to test it live while in Vegas and happy to report I matched my expected earnings since I was able to execute 22 sessions using my same strategy. Not every session will be a win but over the long run if you plot your gains and maintain a proficient throw (example: SRR 6.50) you will see your balance grow like a healthy company stock showing a steady growth over the long run. This should be proof enough to switch to Passline and come betting with odds.

I updated my progress. Looking forward to seeing everyone in 2020. 2020 is going to be a very good year.

Mr.Pip,

I have been following your experiment and all I can say is VERY IMPRESSIVE !

Thanks High Arc,

Its interesting when your live play matches the simulation. Toward the end of November 2019 there was a sight decrease in income but I was able to keep it in the black, I had some issues with my grip delivery that I was able to self-tune up. Looking forward to seeing you in 2020.

-Regards
Mr. PiP

Mr. Pip,
I’m ready to go & all signed up for the May seminar. If you have any outline on paper of your simulation that I can follow please bring it to the May class. Also any outline on how you keep track of your practice throws that I might be able to use..

Thanks, High Arc