I want to thank you Mista’Bones for this question. It seems that maybe in the next few months I have to try to make our betting lecture more interesting or something. That is not a knock on anyone except me.

Betting is so important – maybe even more important than learning the GTC throw. Actually I know it is. I say this because with the use of the 5-count and using comebets instead of place bets a player can make this game of craps almost an EVEN game with the casino. Let me say that again

With the use of the 5-count and using comebets instead of place bets a player can make this game of craps almost an EVEN game with the casino.

Hear that people – almost an even game – NO HOUSE EDGE AT ALL – almost

So before I go into detail on your question on why comebets I want you to re-read the chapter in the manual that is on betting that has the Power Point presentation that we lectured on for about 1.5 hours. The section on the house edge of place bets to comebets. It shows you that even with 1X odds on a comebet the house edge is smaller than placing the 6/8 – WAY SMALLER –

Dom

I have been working with my youngest son on Craps. We started 2 months ago, when he was between jobs. He came over daily, and we would work on every aspect. He’ll be ready for his first GTC Class next year. I’ll bring him by during the open house for the instructors to decide if he will start in a Primer or Refresher. Since he started his new job, we now work on Craps together 3-4 times each week. He’s gotten to where he can self correct, and observe where I might need to adjust, as well.

Since he started having a consistent grip and throw, I started ending every evening with a “live” Craps session. Since his preferred table position is SR2, I’m at SR1. He’s a true lefty. I have a layout on our full sized kitchen table, next to my throwing and receiving stations. Since he’s SL2, hero’s first, as would happen in the casino. I run a $10 table. I start us each with a $500 Buy-in with $400 in $25 chips (I have a really nice set of ceramic chips with metallic inlay), $90 in $5 chips, and $10 in $1 chips. Of course, we’re using the GTC throwing and receiving stations. My son sets the throwing station at 9.5’ to start his hand. He sets his Pass Line Bet, with the dealer tip. I’m the starting dealer and non shooting player. We use $50 blue chips to keep count, with a blue chip going above each number in the Lay, each time that number is thrown. When a Come Out 7 is thrown, I put a blue chip on the line between 6 & 8. My son has had hands of 55, 3 that we’re 40+, and numerous 20+ rolls. Short rolls have gotten rare.

When it’s my time to take the dice, my son is the dealer and non shooting player. We keep a vertical stack of blue chips to keep track of the 5-count. Ending our training sessions with “live play” has tremendously helped my son to learn how to bet – waiting for 3 or 4 collections to start pressing. After our bets are covered by wins, we then press each number rolled (Come Bets, of course) with up to 1/2 of the odds paid. This also adds great fun and excitement to our training sessions.

That’s what I recommend, rather than another betting lecture. Perhaps towards the end of a class, on Sunday before the No 7s competition, each team could have a “live Craps” set with their instructor, using a throwing and receiving station. Each team would be doing this at each station, simultaneously. Expect much shouting and hooting. The team’s instructor can be the dealer (and fussy boxman). Start each student with $200 in chips, allow them to place “bets” on themselves and on their teammates, strictly following the 5-count. Each student has a single run with the dice. Of course, you would need a small table for each team with a small layout for placing bets on the Box numbers. Perhaps, this would be most effective for just the Primers. You might even give a prize to the team that has the most chips at the end, total of all teammates, from their play.

If a team all have consecutive short rolls, their instructor might have them go for a 2nd round.

This has really helped my son learn the 5-count and bet progression. And, it’s a lot of fun.

Re read the chapter I think I got it.
its only about lowering the house edge I got it
I guess I was concerned that I was missing something.
I still don’t like the fact that I can’t pull my bet down.
What concerns me as a random shooter now. Is if I have 3 $10 come bets working on a box numbers and I want to quit before I throw a 7, I cant get that $30 back from the casino.( what am I missing)
I paid for the advice from whom I consider the experts so I will use it.

Preacher – maybe you forgot – we have a live casino session on Day 2 in the morning where everyone shoots at the big table and everyone uses the 5-count. During this time we look at the grip and such and practice the 5-count. We spend almost 2 hours on the this.

Dom

"Mista’Bone" wrote: Re read the chapter I think I got it.
its only about lowering the house edge I got it
I guess I was concerned that I was missing something.
I still don’t like the fact that I can’t pull my bet down.
What concerns me as a random shooter now. Is if I have 3 $10 come bets working on a box numbers and I want to quit before I throw a 7, I cant get that $30 back from the casino.( what am I missing)
I paid for the advice from whom I consider the experts so I will use it.

Lets see – Lowering the house edge is not a small thing – it is a huge thing! Why make a $10 place bet on the 5/9 that immediately when you put it out has a house edge of 4% when with a $5 comebet with $5 in odds has a .87%. As I say in class anyone who does this has to be a little loony 😀

If $30 in comebets makes you nervous that you can’t take down your base bet (but you can take down your odds whenever) don’t put out 3 comebets. Put out less or give yourself the 5-count to begin with

Dom

Thanks Dom
I have a question. The $30 (3 $10 come bets) are always going to end up with the casino on a 7 out.
is that figured into the edge calculation?

The flat part of the come bet will lose if the seven rolls before the bet that established the flat rolls.
That is taken into account in the calculation.

It goes without saying that that the flat portion of a come bet wins if the number the flat went to repeats.

The flat portion then has the same odds as a place bet. I.e. It will lose if the seven rolls before the number repeats.
It is those net wins when a seven or craps is rolled that make the come bet have a lower house advantage than a place bet.

Noah

Thanks

"Dominator" wrote: Preacher – maybe you forgot – we have a live casino session on Day 2 in the morning where everyone shoots at the big table and everyone uses the 5-count. During this time we look at the grip and such and practice the 5-count. We spend almost 2 hours on the this.

Dom

yes i remember this live casino playing with students my first year, i came 2 or 3rd place can’t forget when your on top of the world 😆 😆

Mista Bones–

You ask so many important question. Thank for your input. Please feel free to ask questions, state opinions, or any thing else on your mind. You are a real gift to GTC.

Here are several things that convinced Rose and Doc that Pass Line/Come bets are the way to go. Hopefully this will assist you in your journey to becoming the advantage player you can be. All the things Dom mentioned are good advice.

1. We all know that you have to roll a number 2 times to collect a win when come betting and only once if you place that bet. Not a big deal in our humble opinion. Why, continue reading. Here is the first problems with place betting. Suppose you go $110 across (including the point) by betting the 4 for $25, the 5 for $25, the 6 for $30, the 8 for $30, the 9 for $25 and the 10 for $25. First of all you have missed the 2 to 1 advantage you have on the come out roll–since you did not make a pass line bet. You now have 6 bets up. Now assume the shooter has a point 7 out. You are now down 6 bets. Even if the shooter makes a pay day or two for you, you are still down 4 or 5 bets. A new shooter gets the dice and your bet the same $110. With the assumptions above you have to win between 10 and 12 wins to simply break even with hopefully a little profit. A tough road to walk down. Had you been using the five count and come betting you might have lost nothing or maybe one or 2 bets. You won’t lose much on these short rolls that occur with the best of controlled shooters. As No Field Five says you want to lose less so you can win more. Remember if you spread across with place bets you may look good in the short run but a couple of quick 7 outs with 6 bets on the table and your are way behind in the long run.

2. The real clincher for us was the fact the large difference between place bets and come bets is looking at the difference in terms of DOLLARS rather that percentages. Here is an example on the 6 and 8 that brings the concept home. In this example we will assume you are willing to bet $60 on the 6 and 8. If you use pass line/come betting you will have a base bet of $10 and $50 in odds. Let’s compare this with place betting the 6 and 8. With come betting we all know the $10 carries an house edge of 1.4 percent and the odds section of the bet carries a 0% house edge, giving the house an edge in dollars of $.14. Now place the 6 or 8 with a $60 place bet and the house edge is 1.5%—apparently not much difference. WRONG. In dollars, the house edge is $.90 a large increase since the 1.5% is against the entire $60 wager.

Take this forward to placing vrs come betting on the 5 and 9 with the house edge on these two numbers of 4% and the house advantage on the these place bets is over the top–$2.40 vrs $14 on a come bet.

3. Lastly as s Dom said, you can take your odds portion of the bet down at any time. And we do from time to time.

These are only a few examples but we are convinced come betting is the way to go.

Rose and Doc five count every one, make come bets and on the short rolls, which are many, we lose less and on occasion we win a little, but we are in position to really cash in event of a GTC’er longer roll.

Learn the throw and bet smart. If you aren’t doing both you are missing the best opportunity. We hope to see you again in the near future at a class.

Rose and Doc

I think you really hit the nail on the head Doc. Very well written.

Dom, you’re right. We do the live craps session the 2nd day. And it is very worthwhile.

Reading Doc’s post, and my spending time teaching my youngest son our tried and true methods, has reminded me how discipline is essential for being a successful Advantage Player.

The Place bets take no patience. For the gambler, the emotional rush of a win on a Place bet on the first throw of that number hides the House Advantage. A funny thing about humans – while, for the moment, pain will keep us from repeating what we did, we soon forget the pain and go right back to doing the same bad thing. Apostle Paul said it best, “I do that which I would not do.”

Every GTC student has had the math of Craps laid out very clearly. Between the Pass Line/Come Bets with odds versus all of the Place bets, the clear winner for the Advantage Player are the Pass Line/Come Bets. Math owns the facts. So, when any of us make a Place bet, we’ve just sacrificed Advantage for the sake of returning to gambling.

Gambling is pure emotion and bad thinking, the profit engine of all casinos. Don’t believe me? Take a look at any casino quarterly financials, specifically for Craps or BlackJack. Casino profits on those table games far exceed the profits you’d expect from the House Advantage.

For example, on the Las Vegas strip for the 12 months from Oct 1, 2017 to Sep 30, 2018, the 35 casinos with a total of 185 tables, the casinos won a total of $265 million, which was an overall win of 14.52% (actual House Advantage). In my experience at the table, a great majority of the players’ money are bets on Box numbers: Place bets, Pass Line with odds bets. Since none of those bets give the House an advantage any where near 14.52%, how does that happen? Some comes from sucker bets: hard 4/10 at 11.11%, hard 6/8 at 6.09%, the single roll 2/12 at 16.67%. But, comparatively speaking, the sucker bets are not where players put most, or even a significant percentage, of their money. Conclusion, the House Advantage does not explain how these casinos make a 14.52% Advantage over the players.

Use BlackJack as an example. If a player strictly and successfully follows basic strategy (which I don’t follow as Doc will tell you) the House expects to make at least 0.43906% over time. So, how much did the Las Vegas strip casinos make the prior year? Double the House Advantage, triple maybe? Nope. They made 12.92% reaping $833 million. That’s not because of the House Advantage. That’s because of players having a very, very bad betting strategy- basically no strategy. Right, Doc?

As I often tell my children, you can’t learn a lot from your mistakes, except to listen to your old man. There are a million ways to do something wrong, when there’s only 1 way to do it right. Find somebody who’s done it right.

Craps has a million ways to lose money. It’s not just making the wrong bets. You can make bets the wrong way at the wrong time with the wrong amount on the wrong shooter at the wrong table in the wrong casino with the wrong bankroll with the wrong frame of mind. And that’s just the bets.

GTC has figured out this game. And they give us a way to get an Advantage by using skill in handling the dice.

I’m still trying to teach my son to quit placing bets on the inside. At least he only does it when he has the dice. But that still shows a lack of discipline.

Let’s listen to those that figured out the one way to acquire skill and successfully, consistently leave the casino with more than you brought. I’m almost there.

Update 11/4/18 primer student AC class 10/19 /18

Today I went to my local casino to practice my throwing the dice, 5 counting, and come betting in a live casino.
Here are my results.

I was not as comfortable as I am at home on my practice rig but I really enjoyed the environment.

I started with a $100 buy in and did a 5 count on all the shooters at the table, even though this casino only requires action on the shooter berfore you.

Most of the time when I placed my come bet after the 5 count the shooter 7nd out.
Maybe it was my imagination but it seemed like the dealers and the players at the table were watching me and saying to themselves HTF does this guy know when the shooter is going to 7 out.

About 4 times my come bet went to a box number and I won. Twice it 7nd out. I only made minimum bets, the table limit was $15.

I got to throw the dice 3 times 1st set was a 12 count, second a 3 count, 3rd a 21 count.
I only made place bets on myself and added a $1 alongside for the dealers and $1 on top to cover, the dealers were very apreciative and they annouced dealers on the line, which I think motivated some of the other players to tip. I don’t remenber seeing any tips prior to that.

I had to start at stick left two. Then the player at SL1 left and I took that place for my final throwing session.
The final outcome was I left the casino up $42 and saw how good the 5 count works and got some good practice in a live environment.

I have a lot of work to do on my throwing skills and learning how to bet, but I am very motivated to continue.
Thanks to all the instructors and Dominator for your patience and dedication to teaching us these skills.

LOVE IT!

Remember a few things

1. The 5-count is just there to eliminate shooters. You got lucky that it showed some wins. It is not a method to beat the casino but a method to reduce your exposure to random rollers. That is why you want to use comebets and only bet to the max 25% of your spread

2. I wish you would have used comebets on your roll. Why didn’t you? On that short roll of 3 you probably would have lost less if you did. I wonder if you would have made more money on your rolls if you did.

3. We all have gone through the nervousness the first time we do this live. So not to worry 🙂

Great report and well done! except for not using comebets on your roll 😆

Dom

Thanks Dom

I will make some come bets next time.

I was just taking baby steps trying to stay focused and in controll of what I was doing,
and trying get as much table time as I could on a small bankroll.

The casino craps table is still a little intimidating for me.