Which casino or casinos did you play at? Were you using the 5 count and come bets with odds after the 5 count?

My first class was at Shreveport last year, when I also bought a GTC Throwing and Receiving Station. From my practice at home, I knew I needed a Refresher class, which I took in Las Vegas 2 months later. That’s when I had good results from my training and consistent practice.

From my list of classmates, I was also able to meet with other students at the table, which I much prefer to being the only GTC player at the table.

To answer your concern, your experiencing a downturn in your craps game is a common experience we have all shared. We’ve all been there. It’s good that you asked for advice.

So, the first question to ask is not “Why was I making money with a random throw, but now I’m losing money?” You’re downturn was much more likely to happen if you continued with a random, or somewhat random, roll. The better question is, “After taking the GTC class, how do I get out of this slump?” I can help you with that.

You practice at home with a good Throwing and Receiving Station. After a warmup, be sure to then have a series of sessions where you make bets, exactly the same as you plan to do in the casino. I have my stations set up so that I practice as though throwing from SR 2 (lefty thrower), which is my preferred position in the casino. I also have a craps layout on an adjacent table, with a box of chips in varying denominations. After warmup, I take out $500 or $1000 as my buy-in. I then put down a $10 PassLine bet, roll the dice, and I’m off to the races using whatever betting method I plan to use at the casino. I only go to the casino when I have consistent winning sessions at home.

When I go to the casino, I wait until my preferred position opens at the table. Even then, if a table is full, meaning it will be an hour between my getting the dice, I leave and come back later. I only want, at most, 8 people at the table, if I’m alone. Of course, I look for casinos that have tables similar in construction as my practice stations. If the tables at the casino are soft or bouncy by comparison to my practice setup, then I look for another casino.

If I am at my preferred position at a table that is comparable in construction to my practice stations, then I fully expect to do the same at the casino as I do at home. So should you.

If you’re not doing well at home in practice sessions like I described, then you definitely need a Refresher class and time with other GTC players.

If you’re doing well at home, with consistent money winning sessions, but then not doing well at the casinos, you need to figure out what’s different at the casino. If the casino tables are softer or bouncy in comparison to your practice table, look for a casino with better tables – they exist (I can send you my list for Las Vegas). If the tables are fine, then is something or are some things distracting you? Are you losing concentration?

It took me awhile for my stance and throw at the casino to match my stance and throw at home. Early on, I felt that I stood out at the casino because of my GTC throw and betting strategy, and it made me too self conscious- which negatively affected my throw. After a while, I decided, who cares if I stand out? It’s my money and I’m going to bet and throw the dice however I want. Screw them.

Let me know what you figure out. I’m very interested.

Great advice Preacher. I’d love to see your list of tables in Vegas. I’ll be there in a month. I just got taken down a notch my last time out. It becomes a bump in the road and I’ll lick my wounds before I go back to the drawing board. Get discouraged and then get back to work. A healthy 401g does help as well. Keep rolling.
N

Drummer,

Have you recorded the results of at least 5000 practice rolls? What is your Seven to Rolls Ratio (SRR)?

Even the very best at this have bad sessions, trips, months. You are still new to this. It is a journey not a destination. As someone else said, there will be bumps in the road.

Drummer,

All of above spot on IMHO. One question, asking because I personally know someone who did this (me); were you betting beyond your skill or at least beyond how you were shooting that trip? I like to start light to make sure that I know the table enough to win. I still don’t always do this, but I try to A) start slow, B) make sure that my head is in the game, not blabbing and just having fun. When I’m in the zone, I can bet into my roll much more successfully.

Welcome to the family!

Drummer have you read ALL old posts ? That will give you a lot of info that may help . Also I found that at first I would trow a lot of GOOD 7s . Which made me MAD since a 7 is a 7 no matter how it comes . They seemed to come more often after taking class . I was told that it is better if you not practice before class but I had already been rolling dice for 25 years .
There are just toooo many things that can distract you in a casino .You need to find out what is wrong by thinking what if any thing is bothering you .
Do you shoot from the same spot that you do at home ?
Do you bet the same way ?
Do you throw the dice in the same spot ?
Have you glued 2 dice together to see if you have a wobble ?
I read ALL old posts before I took class so a lot of questions were answered before I got there .
You are lucky in that things have changed a lot on this site for the GOOD. It use to be that no one would even talk to you till you took a class .
This is a journey and even if you do not roll the dice this site should get you to win more with the info that you can get from it .
Most will agree that at first you should use the 5 count on yourself .
Did you loose most of that money on your rolls or others ?
Does betting more bother you or not ?
There is a lot more questions that could be asked but I think a lot of the answers are in old posts .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.

Preacher said it right – you know you were lucky previously from taking the class and that you would eventually lose if you continued with a random throw because every bet you make on the table has a negative edge to it. So you did the right thing.

Finisher is also right with all his questions. Have you recorded your throws and calculated your SRR so you know if you went to the casino with an edge. If not you are random and the variance caught up with you from, the first few times you went.

I am not going to go through all the questions that were asked of you, I don’t want to pile on. You are discouraged and I am sure you are thinking and saying to yourself, "why the heck did I spend the money on a class and rigs when without them I was a winner?"

IMHO, you need to ask yourself the questions that were written and you need to be honest with yourself about the answers. If you want to talk about this on a one on one level, give me a call and we can setup up a good time to chat

But one thing – don’t be the 90% of the students that take our class and don’t make it because they have not done the things that need to be done to become a winner.

Dom

Over the years Rose and Doc have been with GTC, we have found that we will get into a "funk" from time to time and we simply need to step back and analyze what we are doing at the table. Is there something with our grip, throw, betting etc? Usually it is something very minor such as finger or thumb placement, coming inside on the back swing, not throwing straight down the table or practice rig and/or other "minor" errors. We may be betting incorrectly. These things do add up.

We like to compare throwing the dice the GTC way like golf—particularly the chip shot to the green–a very delicate soft shot. Do you think the PGA pros practice a lot, often under the watchful eye of a swing coach, short game coach, putting coach, sports psychologists to name a few. YOU BET. We are both lucky in that we are married to coaches who watch us each and every day. As said—the PGA pros are doing the same. All of us on this board, as GTC professionals, are no different.

Doc remembers once several years ago when he was an assistant instructor and signed up for a tune up (yes he paid just like everyone else) and a few minor adjustments were made and it made a big difference. And this was after a refresher class several months before.

So bottom line you need to have someone look at your throw and at this point a refresher class should be a must in your journey to becoming the advantage player we know you can become. Then follow up with some sort of instruction at least 2 times a year–refresher, elite video, tune up and after several years the advanced class. The cost of this instruction will pay off many times over in the years to come.

The GTC way is not a destination but a continuous journey where you should be making minor adjustments on a continuing basis.

Just some food for thought. It really is a fun game when everything comes together!!!!

Rose and Doc

Hi

I love this game because it is hard as hell. Even when you do have an edge. You have to overcome so many other live play factors that I listed below. So don’t lose hope and learn from your mistakes ask for help and try to play smart because the dice controllers edge is so small it can drop back to the negative edge and bankroll’s faith becomes ladies luck’s new outfit. Also consider adding Tune-ups and Video E. to your throw arsenal.

Factors that I look out for to protect my small edge.

1) Table Environment
1.a) Other Players
1.a.1 – Prime Landing Zone Chip blockers
1.a.2 – Late betters
1.a.3 – Drunks
1.a.4 – Loud overly excited Obnoxious players
1.a.5 – Players that have a need to slap your shoulders from behind
1.a.6 – Other Players that talk with there hands over the rail
1.a.7 – Single woman overly flirting while you have the dice in your hands.
1.a.8.- A player with an unusual lucky hat with a dead fish with dice in its mouth looking at you.
1.a.9 – A high roller just dropped a 12K spread on your next roll.
1.b) Crew stealth heat
1.b.1 – Chatty dealers and box men with you and each other.
1.b.2 – Mis-Calls "Calling a seven out on a 4 2, then saying "My Bad"
1.b.3 – Playing with the Stick while you are in your throw
1.b.4 – Dealer’s that short you on pay-out because they are not use to paying come-bettors
1.b.5 – Stickmen that push the dice pass you when you are on a monster roll to hint "7 out next shooter"
1.b.6 – Stickmen that complain they can smell your hands after your throw to step more closer to SL2
1.b.7 – Box man/shift supervisor and security guy (usually some 7 foot dude Dress in a black suit tie) Staring at you as you throw.
1.c) Temp of Casino
1.d) Sound levels of the casino
1.e) Smell in the Casino (guy at SL2 loves beans, Old dude on the hook may not really be sleeping )

2) Table Conditions and DNA
2.a) Felt type (Micro/Felt)
2.b) Felt underlay (Hard/soft/Bouncy)
2.c) Dice color / Weight / Age in play (Blunt tips or sharp edges)
2.d) Table Experience, if you been logging your sessions and noting what you have done at a table for what worked, repeat the same thing over and over again sooner or later the table will be one of your favorites.

3) Your Money Management and Expectations
3.a) Divide your money into multiple sessions for the trip.
3.b Stick to the come betting strategy that you practiced at home that is with-in your comfort level for a losing a sessions and takes advantage of when you are on a hot roll.
3.c) Log your session win/losses and make notes on anything that was good or bad that impacted the session. I log casino, table-ID, Time-in, Time-out, hands played. Launch position and landing position
(I don’t but some people track # of throws per hand)
3.d) Learn to be happy when you lose less. If the table factors were rough and you lost a fraction of your trip bank roll. Be happy because in the long run you will be ahead if you follow all the GTC best practices and you will get that "A ha" moment.

4) Self health awareness
4.a – Physical Health
4.a.1 – You feel no pain anywhere.
4.a.2 – You are well rested.
4.b.3 – You digested and discarded that comped buffet
4.b.4 – You are hydrated and have high energy level
4.b.5 – You are not feeling like a Sailor that was at Sea for 3 years
4.b – Mental Health
4.b.1 – You are not pissed off at your spouse/partner/gf
4.b.2.- You are focused and start filtering out the cfer’s chatter
4.b.3 – You are thinking about work
4.b.4 – You doing constant positive thinking (Think of your point over and over in your mind)

-Mr. PiP

I like your list Mr.PIP. It is a tough journey with a great group of people.

While reading your list Mr. PIP one of them caught my eye and I laughed to myself remembering an incident that happened to me once.

1.b.3 – Playing with the Stick while you are in your throw

As I was shooting the dice one session, the stickman was waving the stick around in front of me like a fishing pole. The first time it happened it startled me and I jerked a bit as I released the dice. Fortunately I got lucky and threw a box number with a terrible throw. When I picked up the dice for my next throw, the stick was doing it again.

I put the dice down and started looking around in the air above the table. It caused everybody at the table to look up as well. After a few seconds the stickman asked me what I was looking at. I told him I was looking for the fly buzzing around above us!!!

The whole crew cracked up. Both dealers and the boxman were howling. All the other players started laughing as well. The only one not in on the joke was the stickman.

The stickman stood there dumbfounded. He had no idea what I was talking about. It was obvious to me that he was not doing the stick waving intentionally, it was a nervous habit. He had no idea he was even doing it.

He finally asked why they were all laughing. That made them roar even more. But one of the dealers, with tears streaming down his face, screamed at him, "YOU ARE WAVING YOUR STICK AROUND LIKE A FLY SWATTER"!!!

The stickman’s face turned beet red. He was so embarrassed because he had no idea he was doing that. He apologized profusely and put the stick completely out of the way.

From that point forward I had no trouble with the stickman. When I had the dice, he moved back away from the table giving me plenty of room and kept the stick at his side out of my view.

Sometimes you can make lemonade out of lemons if you keep your wits about you and use your sense of humor.

One thing for sure – I Skinny and Billy are the best at talking to the dealers while they are throwing. I have never seen anyone better than them!

Dom

PS I remember when that happened Skinny

Hi Drummer,

You have had a lot of great suggestions and there’s not too much I could add to that. One thing to remember is that even with an edge (and you have an edge if you have an SRR of 6.23 or greater) there is a great deal of variance in results. If you think about it for a minute, on Pass and Come bets the edge the house enjoys on a random roller is only 1.41 percent. With 5X odds that edge for the house drops to just 0.33 but still, over time, the house is a huge winner. They have streaks where the players clean their clocks and other streaks where the house just can’t lose. The way they weather those streaks is by having a very large bankroll to sustain the downturns.

The same is true for us as advantaged players. With an SRR of only 6.23 you have the edge on Pass, Come, and even placing 6 & 8 (but it is better to be a come better). That edge is rather small so you will have plenty of losing sessions. The key is to have a large enough bankroll or 401g to handle those losses and still be able to fight again tomorrow.

As many have said, the real key is to accurately determine your SRR by recording no less than 5000 rolls, the more the better. I have recorded well over 20K. Having instructors look at your throw periodically is critically important in my opinion. I would suggest an annual review of your throw at the least. Even if it only for a few minutes at an open house. Even better is an annual Refresher or Tune-up. I have never seen an organization where all of the instructors truly care that you be successful. For me, one of the most valuable things I did was the Video Elite.

I know its tough to not get discouraged but as all have said, this is a journey and a real fun one at that. Be patient and practice, practice, practice! You will get there and when you do, all of the struggle will have been more than worth it.

Good luck and keep the faith!
Dennis

Thank you to all who have replied. My lack of a response should not be an indication that I have been ignoring you all. Actually, I have visited this discussion several times since posting.

I wanted to make sure I read everything and put a lot of thought into how I was playing so I would be very honest with you all as well as myself. This may be a rather long post but I hope you all take the time to read it.

The first person to reply asked which Casino, and how was I betting.

The casino was NYNY, which is where my wife and I really enjoy staying. The tables were outfitted with a surface that Dom had told me about, I cannot remember what he called it but the surface was not the same as my practice rig. You also asked how did I bet, I started with 5 count using a come bet with odds but I have to be honest with myself. I found myself falling back into my old way of betting which was place betting.

Preacher made some really good points. YES PREACHER I WOULD LIKE THAT LIST IF YOU DO NOT MIND. Preacher, I would also like to tell you that prior to going to Vegas I practiced a lot but I did not record my practice sessions and I did not practice betting. Again, I think this is something that hindered my play when in Vegas.

Hard Nine asked if I was betting beyond my skill level. I do not believe I was. However, I do believe I broke some of the GTC rules after I had not been doing well. I made some stupid bets later on in the week and I will get to those later in this post. I have not recorded 5000 rolls so I do not have an accurate SRR, again I understand this is something that I should have done before I went on the trip.

Finisher, I have not read all of the old posts but I am going to be doing that. I do shoot from the same position that I do at home, I kept changing the way I was betting after becoming discouraged at the casino so I to answer your question, no I was not betting the same way. I do not have two dice glued together. After I got frustrated I made stupid bets in large amounts and those were on other shooters as well as myself. I think I lost the most money betting on other shooters, just because I was frustrated and that frustration clouded my judgement.

Dom, I absolutely agree with you, I was very lucky the first few times I went to Vegas and as Preacher said I was due for a downturn. Thank you for the advise about not being like 90% of the students. I will send you an email shortly.

Rose and Doc, your post was very inspiring, especially what you said about GTC not being a destination, I had never thought about it that way.

Mr. PiP — man that is some list. I actually printed it out and will be adding that to my study material. Thank you!

Overall I my problem with this last trip was that I had done fairly well the times before and then I took the class and set up a practice station so I went to Vegas with the mindset of, even though I may not know my SRR or have enough practice under my belt I should do as well or better than I did with my previous trips. When I got there (btw the NYNY is the same place we have stayed every time we have visited) I went straight to my normal two tables that I play. When I started doing terrible it was like a punch in the stomach. I didnt know what to do, I started questioning myself and what I had learned, I started using poor judgement, and I was not consistent. Taking into consideration what Preacher said about the expected downturn and adding all of what I just described I am sure that all created, "the perfect storm".

Again, I want to thank everyone for the input and advice. I am going to take some time to evaluate everything.

Drummer

Drummer
Probably, the hardest thing for us old gamblers to learn is "HOW TO NOT BE THE gambler we were prior to GTC." The old gambler would:

Play when tired
Chase losses
Play way outside his/her bankroll
Make stupid bets with high house cigs
AND many many more

So on your journey to becoming a GTC advantage player one must throw off these old habits. It is hard but it can be done. Much harder than learning out throw.

We hope to see you soon.

Rose and Doc

Thanks again to all. I just spoke with Dom and I am planning on taking a refresher class either in Vegas or Atlantic City. I hope to see you there!

Drummer

Drummer, reading your post, it sounds like you took a sincere look at your play and identified areas you went wrong. Trust me, I get it. I wanted to take all that I learned from GTC and twist it into a style that allowed me to have my cake and eat it too. That didn’t last a full session.

It’s easy to fall back into bad habits when things go south and are working against you. The frustration builds but human nature doesn’t always allow us to think rationally, rather, emotions get involved. We all work hard for our money.

I was in the same Primer as you last Oct. With much discipline and determination to practice as often as I can, I have been able to take the house to task more often than not.

My point is, don’t give up. I had a couple of beatings, we all have. You did right by reaching out to Dom for advice.

Best wishes you can right the ship.

I’ve had a similar situation with a downturn in results. I was a losing player at craps prior to taking a primer class last August in Vegas. After the class I had some good sessions and ended the year in the black. That was the first winning year I had playing craps in a long time. Then 2018 started and I couldn’t put together a winning session. I play at the same casino all the time in northern Iowa and I always shoot from SL1. If the tables are too busy or my spot isn’t open then I don’t play. The tables are good (felt) and the crew doesn’t give me any heat. Many of them even give me extra room. I built my own practice rig and was practicing daily. I really had no idea what I was doing wrong.

I decided to take a break, really focus on my practice sessions and make sure my toss was good before playing in the casinos again. Unfortunately, shortly after that, I broke my right thumb playing hockey and had to get 3 pins put in it and have it in a splint for 4 weeks. That really put a dent in my practicing. But I got the pins taken out last Tuesday and I’m working on getting full range of motion back in my thumb. Then I will be hitting the practice table hard to prepare for the refresher course in Vegas in August. I’m confident that the practice and coaching will get my toss on track so that I can erase the losses from earlier this year.

That is exactly right, sometimes you have to go back to basics.

Hope that thumb gets better!

Dom

Drummer it is easy to get discouraged when you think that you are getting better and it is not just your night .
I find that at times it seems that I bet the wrong way period . I tell others that they only have to bet the opposite as I do to win . Since I am not .
I find that I now just not let these things bother me as much as I use to . I have missed out on a lot of great rolls at times . So have thought a lot about this and have come up with a plan .
After five count bet one bet on 6 or 8 and after 2 wins just press till no tomorrow . Just a thought . Or one come bet .I hope to get lucky just one day on your LONG ROLL .
It is a small world .
Try the glue dice thing .If I am going to loose money I would rather do it on my roll then others . Just saying .
I just wish I could control myself more then I control the dice .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Controlling the gambler in all of us is sometimes hard

Dom