I don’t really know but I would guess it would be $150.

But the best way to make line bets in AC with 5X odds is to use 3-unit bets so that you can "push the house".

A 3-unit bet would be a line (PL or Come) bet of $15/$30/$75/$150/$300/$750, etc.

On a $15 line bet you can take odds of $75/100/125 respectively on the 4&10/5&9/6&8. Each bet would pay $165 consisting of $15 for the line bet and $150 for the odds.

On a $30 line bet you can take odds of $150/200/250. Each bet would pay $330.

On a $75 line bet you can take odds of $375/500/625. Each bet would pay $825.

For the larger numbers, multiply by 10 as appropriate.

With a 3-unit bet they allow you to take more than 5X odds. There is a historical reason for this which I will not go into here. But the important thing to realize is that it will reduce the HA even more from 0.326% at 5X odds to 0.25% when pushing the house at 5X odds.

Oddly enough they do not consider a $60 line bet a 3-unit bet. However they will allow you to take more in odds on the 6&8 for a $60 line bet.

With a $60 line bet you can take $300 in odds on the 4/5/9/10 and $500 in odds on the 6/8.

What Skinny described Phil is the way I play in AC – I start with a $15 line/comebet to push the house

Dom

That is indeed a very nice little bonus

Thanks Skinny for the info. I will try it in a few weeks on my next foray to AC. Billy also recommended the $15 come bet.

Skinny-$75 odds bet on a $15 Come bet is not even.

On a $15 line bet you can take odds of $75/100/125 respectively on the 4&10/5&9/6&8.

With a $15 line bet you can take up to $75 in odds on the 4 or 10.
Up to $100 in odds on the 5 or 9.
Up to $125 in odds on the 6 or 8.

You do not need even odds on the 4 or 10.

If you take the max odds on each number you would take $75/100/125/125/100/75 on the 4/5/6/8/9/10.

Each number would pay $165.

On the 4 and 10 you would get 2 times $75 = $150 plus $15 for the line bet.
On the 5 and 9 you would get 3/2 times $100 = $150 plus $15 for the line bet.
On the 6 and 8 you would get 6/5 time $125 = $150 plus $15 for the line bet.

Skinny-Just came back from AC with great results. No problem with the odds. What would the max odds be on a $20 come bet?

You are not going to be able to "push the House" with a $20 comebet because with 5X odds all of the odds bet would be $100 even on the 5/9 so they will not allow you to push it. Do $15 or $30 –

Dom

Dom is right. You are much better off with $15 or $30 line bets.

Although they might allow you to go to $125 on the 6/8 with a $20 come bet since you can take $125 with a $15 come bet. You would have to ask the dealers how much they allow on the 6/8 with a $20 line bet.

With a $30 come bet, what are the max odds?

With a $30 come bet, what are the max odds.

At 5X odds you can take:

$150 on the 4/10
$200 on the 5/9
$250 on the 6/8

Each pay out is $330.

If you start with $15 line bets and max odds at a 5X table you will be betting $75/$100/$125 on the 4/5/6 and 10/9/8 respectively.

To cover 6 numbers you would have $690 on the table.

Each pay out would be $165. With 4 collections you would take in $660 or enough to cover the 6 bets on the table.

With 4 more collections you would take in another $660 giving you a net profit of $630. So after 8 collections you would have a profit approximately equal to what you have on the table.

If you want to increase your bets at this point you can increase your come bet to $30. Then use each successive hit for max odds and you would not have to take any money out of your rails to do so.

You hit the 4 or 10 with a $30 come bet. The dealer would pay you $165 and give you back the $15 with $75 odds you had on the number. That is a total of $255. You take $150 in odds put up a new come bet of $30 and $75 goes into your rails.

You hit the 5 or 9 with a $30 come bet. The dealer would pay you $165 and give you back the $15 with $100 odds you had on the number. That is a total of $280. You take $200 in odds put up a new come bet of $30 and $50 goes into your rails.

You hit the 6 or 8 with a $30 come bet. The dealer would pay you $165 and give you back the $15 with $125 odds you had on the number. That is a total of $305. You take $250 in odds put up a new come bet of $30 and $25 goes into you rails.

With all 6 numbers covered you would now have $1380 on the table. You would have $945 in profit in your rails.

Since each hit pays $330, four more hits would bring an additional $1320 into your rails for a net profit of $2265.

At this point you could increase your come bet to $75 and follow the same pattern as above.

This is one way that you can increase your bets if you want to do it that way.

Nice moves Skinny!

Dom

When I count collections, I am counting points made as well. Is that correct? Points made with a $10 PL with full odds pays less than my $15 come bet with full odds. Nevertheless, I have been counting a point made as a collection. N’est pas?

You should be making a $15 PL with full odds as well. You are giving up the chance to “push the house” for an extra.12% in house advantage by making only a $10 PL with 5X odds instead of a $15 PL.

With the $10 PL you only collect $110/$85/$70 on the 4&10/5&9/6&8 instead of $165 on all numbers with a $15 PL.

But if you feel more comfortable with a $10 PL I WOULD count it as a collection. The reason for counting collections is so you know when you have won enough to start increasing your bets. Since you only have $60 in total on the PL the reduced collection still gives you a bit of a profit. So I would therefore count it as a collection.

Totally agree with Skinny Phil.

Dom

Dom and Skinny,

May I ask. This probably comes down to personal preference, more than anything else, but in order to play $15 PL and push the house by maxing the odds, is there a recommended session bankroll?

I have been playing $10 PL with max odds simply to stretch my total bankroll as far as I can until I can get some good wins under my belt to build the bankroll up some. I am using a benchmark of 3 turns at the dice. Three hands of 3-point PL/Come bets plus 5X odds equals $180. I have been buying in at $600.

Using that same thinking, PL/Come bet 6&8 would equal $140×2= $280 plus a third point (5 or 9) for an additional $115 equals $395. So I am figuring I would need around a $1200 buy-in to push the house.

I do have that type of bank available, but I am doubling my buy-in and a good clobbering at the tables makes it hurt a little bit more in longer term bankroll management.

This question really goes to the heart of bankroll management. and really should be a separate topic but it is such an important topic. I say in class, betting and how you bet can be and probably IS more important that learning the throw.

Your question goes into "lifetime bankroll" versus "session bankroll". What you buy in for really has nothing to do with your life time bankroll. I buy in for different amounts all the time and it has nothing to do with how much I am going to bet. What I have in my pocket or in my lifetime 401G has nothing to do with my buy in at any session.

I hope you are building a lifetime bankroll with your wins and that is really what you should playing against.

Right now with what you said, tick at your $10 PL until your lifetime bankroll grows

Dom

Does the amount of your buyin effect the casino’s rating of you? Secondly, it is difficult to play a $15 PL bet and two to three $15 come bets to satisfy a host. In my Place bet days, three place bets of $60 on the 6 and 8 and a third for $50 on a different number added up to $180 including the PL bet. With come betting, I am at $45-60. That does not warm the cockles of a host’s heart. What does a come better do?

"Philham" wrote: Does the amount of your buyin effect the casino’s rating of you?

It does not specifically factor into the formula for determining your rating. But it does have an impact on the people doing the rating.

Secondly, it is difficult to play a $15 PL bet and two to three $15 come bets to satisfy a host. In my Place bet days, three place bets of $60 on the 6 and 8 and a third for $50 on a different number added up to $180 including the PL bet. With come betting, I am at $45-60. That does not warm the cockles of a host’s heart. What does a come better do?

I just came back from AC with another successful low loss and high win trip. My first trip as a come bettor was at Xmas time. I did a little under 2K. Yesterday morning I bought in for 2K and left with a $2300 profit.

In other words, make more money with come betting than place betting or please your host. The choice is yours to make.

But if you are playing The Big Skinny you would be making place bets after 8 collections. If I were doing $15 line bets, my objective would be to be able to go to $150 line bets with enough on the board to fund my bets without having to take any money or very little out of my rails. In order to do that I would want to have $300 buy bets on the 4 & 10, $600 on the 5 & 9, $900 on the 6 & 8.

Thus after 8 collections, I would start making place bets of $150 on each number that hits. Each hit pays, $165. I put $150 on the number and $15 in my rails.

If I hit a number after that with both a place and come bet, I put the total win in my rails and count that as a double hit. 4 double hits would give me a win equal to double the amount of new money I put on the table. Thus after 4 double hits I have made my profit from the new bets and I want to put more money on the table. I start to press my place bets with the full amount I collect trying to get to $300/$600/$900 on 4&10/5&9/6&8 respectively.

It never works perfectly so you may not always be putting the money on the number that hits. But just to demonstrate how it would work, let us say you have all 6 numbers covered with line bets and $150 in place/buy bets. Also, say you have collected on 4 double hits so you are ready to press your bets again.

Your point is the 10 and you now throw a 6. It pays $165 for the come bet and $175 for the place bet ($340 total). Press your 6 from $150 to $450 and put $40 in your rails. Next you throw an 8 and repeat the same thing.
Next you throw a 5. It pays $165 for the come bet and $210 for the place bet ($375 total). Press the 5 from $150 to $450 and put $75 in your rails. Next you throw a 9 and repeat the same thing.
Next you throw a 4. It pays $165 for the come bet and $300 for the buy bet ($465 total). Press the 4 & 10 to $300 each paying $30 for the vig and put $135 in your rails.

You now have pressed all your numbers to the next level which I call triple numbers. You want to get 4 triple collections to give you a profit equal to the new money you have put on the table and then you are ready to go to the next level of presses.

Let’s say you hit the 5,6,8 & 9 in succession collecting $795, $690, $690 & $795 respectively ($2,970 total). You put an additional $1,500 on the table when you pressed your place/buy bets. This give you a profit of $2,970 plus the $365 you put in the rails when you pressed your bets for a total net profit of $3,335. You see how the 4 triple hits give you the desired profit. You put $1,500 on the table and $3,335 in the rails.

You now have $300/$450/$450/$450/$450/$300 as place/buy bets across the board.

Let’s say you now hit a 5. It pays $165 and $630. Press the 5 & 9 from $450 to $600 each, press the 6 to $900 and put $45 in the rails.
Next you throw an 8. It pays $165 and $525. Press the 8 to $900 and put $240 in your rails.

You have now put an additional $1,200 on the table so you want 1 or 2 hits at this level to cover those bets.
The 4&10 pay $765 less $15 vig = $750.
The 5 & 9 pay $1,005.
The 6 & 8 pay $1,215.

If you throw a 6 or 8 you put $1,215 in the rails and you have the necessary profit. If you hit an outside number it is up to you if you want another hit or not before going to the next level.

To get to the next level, change your $15 come bet to $150. Here is what you do as you hit each successive number.

You throw a 6. It pays $1,215 and the dealer brings down your $15 come bet with $125 in odds ($1,355 total) putting your $150 come bet on the 6. You give him $1,250 in odds and put out a new $150 come bet. This takes $45 out of your rails.
You throw a 5. It pays $1,005 and the dealer brings down your $15 come bet with $125 in odds ($1,145 total) putting your $150 come bet on the 5. You give him $1,000 in odds and put out a new $150 come bet. This takes $5 out of your rails.
You throw a 4. It pays, $750 and the dealer brings down your $15 come bet with $75 in odds ($840 total) putting your $150 come bet on the 4. You give him $750 in odds and put out a new $150 come bet. This takes $60 out of your rails.

After throwing all 6 numbers you have the board covered with $150 line bets and $750/$1,000/$1,250 in odds on the 4&10/5&9/6&8 respectively.

You have put out new money of $6,000 plus taking $220 out of your rails. Each hit at this level pays $1,650. 4 hits at this level will put $6,600 in your rails. This will give you a profit slightly greater than the new money you put on the table and you are now ready to get to the next level.

If you are ever fortunate to get this far you would want to start making place bets of $1,500 with each new successive hit.

If you get on a really great roll, you would continue at this level as you did before. But instead of trying to get from $15 come bets to $150, you would now be trying to go from $150 come bets to $1,500 come bets.

A 40 – 50 roll hand could get you to the $150 come bet level. A 50 – 70+ roll hand could get you to the $1,500 come bet level.

But even a 25 to 40 roll hand should get you quite a bit of money on the table as place bets. This should happen often enough to more than satisfy your host. While I admit that is not my objective, it is a by-product of playing TBS when you get decent rolls.

"In other words, make more money with come betting than place betting or please your host. The choice is yours to make."

This sentence is what everyone should think about

Dom

The reason casinos rate place bets higher than come bets with odds is because they know they have a bigger house edge on the place bets. That bigger house edge makes the casino more money and they are willing to give you a small piece of that profit back in comps. But they only give back 20-30% of the profit. The 70-80% they keep is money that can be in your pocket instead when you do come bets with odds.

Casinos are not stupid. They have the math figured out. It costs you $3-$5 for every $1 the casino gives back to you in comps.

You can put the money in their pocket with place bets and get a small piece back in comps or you can make come bets with odds and put 100% in your pocket. Once again, the choice is yours.

The problem is even with 25-35 roll sessions, I am not getting even 5 numbers covered. Often with a bet in the come box, I hit a come bet already up. Covering 6 numbers with come bets has not happened yet. I am making money with the new come bet betting plan, but the real does not comport with the plan. I think the most come bets that I have had up was 4.

The best words spoken by the dealers are "you’re off and on". I am happy if I never get 6 bets in action as long as I am repeating them.

NFF

I agree. But, Skinny’s betting strategy is aspirational. Twice, I have had 11 and 12 collections, but not on the same visit. Once in December and once in February. Tis a rare event for me.

I could not agree more with NFF. Plus if you are only getting up on 3 numbers and repeating those numbers you only need a 7-9 hand roll to make reasonable money.

If you are up on the 5,6,8 you will have $410 on the table out of your rails, $395 on the numbers plus the $15 come bet you have out. 4 collections will pay you $660. Counting the $15 you will collect when you seven out plus getting your last come back, you should have a $280 profit with a 7-9 hand roll. It will take 7 rolls if you don’t throw any garbage numbers (2,3,11,12) or 8 – 9 rolls if you throw 1 or 2 garbage numbers.

If you are up on 3 or 4 numbers and repeating those numbers, you should only need a 15 – 20 roll hand to get 11 or 12 collections. Plus after 8 collections you should be double dipping. The last 3 or 4 collections should be double hits.

A 25 – 35 roll hand should net you a very handsome profit, especially if you only get up on 4 numbers and keep repeating those same numbers. Let’s look at a sample hand of a 30 roll. If you throw 5 garbage numbers that leaves you tossing 25 box numbers. I will ignore making your point because that makes it a bit more complicated to explain. But I want to focus on how this sample hand could evolve and how much money you should expect to make when you throw 25 box numbers.

Let’s say you get up on the 4,5,6,8 plus a $15 come bet on the table. That would be an outlay of $500 with 4 rolls. Another 8 rolls that yield 8 collections brings in $1320. At this point you want to increase your bets so you increase your come bets to $30 bringing your initial outlay to $515. 4 more rolls to hit every number and you would add more money to your rails.

You hit the 4, the dealer pays you $165 plus the $90 you had on the 4 and moves your $30 come bet to the 4. You take $150 in odds, put out a new $30 come bet and $75 goes in the rails.
You hit the 5, the dealer pays you $165 plus the $115 you had on the 5 and moves your $30 come bet to the 5. You take $200 in odds, put out a new $30 come bet and $50 goes in the rails.
You hit the 6, the dealer pays you $165 plus the $140 you had on the 6 and moves your $30 come bet to the 6. You take $250 in odds, put out a new $30 come bet and $25 goes in the rails.
You hit the 8, the dealer pays you $165 plus the $140 you had on the 8 and moves your $30 come bet to the 8. You take $250 in odds, put out a new $30 come bet and $25 goes in the rails.

You have now thrown 16 box numbers, laid out $515 and put $1495 in your rails for a $980 net profit. You may notice you have $1000 on the table and a net profit of $980. One of the basic principles to TBS is that after you recover your initial outlay (initial amount at risk) your net profit will be at least equal or greater than the amount you have out on the table. You still have 9 more box numbers to hit and each hit will pay $330 at this point. So at this point you have a profit equal to what is on the table and it will be increasing with each successive hit.

The next 2 hits will yield $660, an amount approximately equal to the new money you put out on the table. You could now start to increase your come bets to $75 but the money you win will not be enough to cover the new bet. So I would wait for 2 more hits before increasing to $75 come bets. So with those 4 hits, you put $1320 in your rails bringing the total you put in the rails to $2815 with an initial outlay of $515. You have now thrown 20 box numbers. You increase your come bet to $75 bringing your initial outlay to $555. You now hit every number with the next 4 rolls and it goes as follows:

You hit the 4, the dealer pays you $330 plus the $180 you had on the 4 and moves your $75 come bet to the 4. You take $375 in odds, put out a new $75 come bet and $60 goes in the rails.
You hit the 5, the dealer pays you $330 plus the $230 you had on the 5 and moves your $75 come bet to the 5. You take $500 in odds, put out a new $75 come bet and $15 comes out of the rails.
You hit the 6, the dealer pays you $330 plus the $280 you had on the 6 and moves your $75 come bet to the 6. You take $625 in odds, put out a new $75 come bet and $90 comes out of the rails.
You hit the 8, the dealer pays you $330 plus the $280 you had on the 8 and moves your $75 come bet to the 8. You take $625 in odds, put out a new $75 come bet and $90 comes out of the rails.

With the additional $135 you had to take out of your rails to cover the bets brings your initial out lay to $690. You have now thrown 24 box numbers.

You hit the last box number which pays $825 and then seven out paying $75 for your last come bet and you get your $75 come bet back. This brings the total you put in your rails to $3790. Subtracting the $690 you laid out from your rails gives you a very handsome net profit of $3100.

When you sevened out you had $2425 on the table and made a net profit of $3100. You need money on the table to make money. But TBS does it in a controlled manner that should yield a profit approximately equal or greater to the amount of money you have on the table when you seven out. The more money you have on the table with TBS, the better off you are because it means you have at least that amount in your rails as profit.

I have always been fairly decent at math, but watching Skinny’s calculator-like brain just blows me away.

LOL. Yeah it scares me sometimes too. I have no idea how it works. I just know I have always been good at math and I enjoy it.

For example, I don’t bother to memorize stuff that I can calculate pretty easily in my head. I would be riding in the car with Dom and the guys and we would be talking about the house edge on various bets. Someone might ask, what is the house edge on the hard 6? That is one that I don’t have memorized so I would figure it out as follows:

There are 6 ways to throw a seven, 4 ways to throw a soft six (1-5,2-4) and only 1 way to throw a hard six (3-3). So there is 1 way to win the bet and 10 ways to lose the bet. Thus, you can expect to win the bet one time for every 11 times you make it. The house pays 9-1, so you will get paid $9 plus your $1 bet for a collection of $10 each time you make a $1 bet. You can expect to lose on average $1 for every $11 you bet.

1 divided by 11 is 9.09%. Thus the house edge is 9.09%.

It took me a lot longer to explain than it would to do the calculation in my head. I just figure it is easier to calculate stuff like that than memorize a bunch of crazy numbers.

You got me thinking about this stuff and I just thought of one more thing that will really make your head explode.

I like to walk for exercise and I would usually do it several times a week for about an hour each time. When I first came up with TBS, I did it while I was on these walks.

I would play games of craps in my head while I was walking. Tried several different methods and would keep track of all the bets, wins and losses in my head over the course of the hour walk. It would be exactly like what I explained up above with the 25 box number roll hand. I would try one method per walk and then compare which ones seem to be the best. Once I narrowed it down, I would use a computer and spreadsheets to compare the different methods to validate what I had done in my head. It probably took me about a year trying a variety of different betting methods before I finally came up with TBS.

Once I developed TBS I would try different scenarios on my walks to make myself proficient at being able to make the bets at the table quickly under a variety of conditions. For example, what do you do If you are up on 4 numbers, have made 5 collections, make your point for the 6th collection and then throw a 7 on the new come out roll bringing down all your come bets while getting the odds back. How do you handle the presses when you are double or triple dipping? What is the easiest way to tell the dealers to increase your bets so that they know what you want to do and can do it quickly?

I would keep track of all this in my head because I wanted to be able to do it at the tables automatically, without having to think about it. Playing games of craps in my head and keeping track of my bets enabled me to do this quickly and smoothly at the tables.

It is similar to how people practice at home with chips simulating a real game during their practice sessions. I found it easier to do in my head and it gave me a good way to pass the time while exercising.

Skinny Exercising both body and mind at the same time sounds GREAT .Keep up with the young guys . 😀
Good Rolling.

I love to use formulas when trying to figure these things. So for an AC table X5 odds. I calculate the "Odds factor" and use it to calc the 3-4-5 odds limit

1) I first figure out the odds factor:

Odds Factor = (Table minimum * 5) / 3

2) If the Odds Factor is an integer a number that has no decimal point then use the following calculations.

4/10 = Odds Factor * 3
5/9 = Odds Factor * 4
6/7 = Odds Factor * 5

Payout = Table Minimum + (Odds Factor * 6 )

Now, why is 60 excluded (Scratching my head) ?

Skinney-Going on a cruise. Table has 3,4 an d 5X odds. What is the betting strategy?

Most casinos in LV were 3-4-5X. I would play TBS but increase my line bet to get the same odds as I would at a 5X table with a 3 unit bet.

In other words, at a 5X table if you are comfortable with $15 line bets and pushing the house with $75/100/125 in odds on the 4&10/5&9/6&8 respectively, then you should use $25 line bets (PL & Come) with full odds at a 3-4-5X table. Each hit will pay $175 instead of $165. So while you will have $10 more at risk for each wager, you will get paid $10 more for each hit.

With TBS you hold at 3 line bets (PL and 2 CB) until you start to get hits. You decide when you want to go to 4, 5 & 6 line bets. Some will go to 4 bets after 1 hit, 5 bets after 2 hits and 6 bets after 3 hits. Others will wait for 2 hits before going to 4 bets, then either 5 & 6 after each successive hit or every 2 successive hits. It all depends on how aggressive you like to be. Personally, I just keep putting out come bets regardless of how many hits I have. It is rare for me to have the board covered with 6 line bets without having any hits. You roughly need 2 hits to cover 3 line bets. So 4 hits give you enough to have the board covered. If you have all 6 numbers covered you will have $750 on the table. 4 hits pay $700 and 8 hits give you $1400.

After 8 hits it is time to put more money on the table. You can do this by increasing your line bet to $50. The money you collect on the next hit plus the money you get back because they will bring down your $25 bet with odds will be enough to cover the new money on the table with a slight profit.

For example. When you hit a 4 or 10, you get paid $175 and they give you back the $100 you had on the number. Your $50 line bet will go to the number and you put up $150 in odds and a new $50 come bet. Thus you take in $275, put out $200 and $75 goes in the rails. For a 5 or 9, you get paid $175 plus $125 had on the number. You put $200 in odds and $50 come bet. You take in $300, put out $250 and $50 goes in the rails. For a 6 or 8, you get paid $175 plus $150 you had on the number. You put $250 in odds and $50 come bet. You take in $325, put out $300 and $25 goes in the rails.