At the risk of backlash, I do like to have bets working on come out ON MY OWN ROLLS. I start my roll with 25 to the 6/8 working, dealer’s choice on the penny under my control. As long as my dice are looking good, and no one is in my head, I’m good until my bets are built up. Nothing crazy, but I like to have the number help fund my odds! I know the math works the other way, but if I’m confident in my throw, I’ll keep them on until their value gets in my head.

If I were to do it, it would only be on my rolls. I certainly wouldn’t leave odds at risk on anyone else. Again, I am a huge fan of the come-out, but am open-minded enough to explore any possible ways to squeeze juice out of that lemon.

"Wirenut" wrote:
Quote: "However, it does reduce the overall house edge to keep the odds on your come bets working on the come out roll."

Yes, this is a true statement. Look at is this way. If you make a come bet without odds, the House Advantage (HA) is 1.41%. If I take single odds after establishing a point, I can reduce the HA to 0.848%. This is because my expected loss is .01414 times my base bet and my average bet will be 1.6667 times my base bet. .01414/1.6667 = 0.848%. But if I call the odds off for the entire roll, I am not really taking any odds and the HA would not get reduced at all. My average bet would get reduced to my base bet and in that case the HA would be .01414/1 = 1.41%.

The typical calculation for the HA is based on a pass line wager with odds. Since we take odds on the PL after the come out roll the odds are always working in the normal course of play unless we take action to call them off. We tend to use the same HA numbers for come bets. But to be completely accurate, one needs to have the odds working on come out rolls in order to get the same HA as one would get with a PL where the odds are typically always working. If you leave the odds off on come bets during come out rolls, which is the typical situation for come bets, you will reduce the average size of your bet and correspondingly reduce the HA.

In either situation, your expected loss on an RR will be the same 1.41% of the base bet. The HA is calculated by dividing that expected loss by your average bet. If the average bet gets reduced by leaving the odds off on come out rolls, the HA will be reduced as well. You will still lose the same amount of money but it will be a lower percentage of the total wagered because the total wagered is reduced when you don’t work your odds on come out rolls.

If you have an advantage when you roll because of your skill, it is to your advantage to leave your bets working on the come out rolls.

Now that explains the math behind the game. It does not take into consideration the human elements that are also part of the game.

Here is my BIG disclaimer. From my personal experience and knowledge I would not recommend having the odds working on come out rolls, even for an advantage player.

Once a point is made, the entire rhythm of the table changes. While you are in the middle of a come out roll, the dice are being passed to you at a fairly regular pace. You get into a rhythm that feels comfortable. When your shot is working, you are able to concentrate on your target, control the dice and repeat the pattern on a fairly consistent basis.

When you make your point, the timing changes dramatically. The dealers stop to pay off all the PL and collect DPL wagers as well as paying/collecting other wagers. The players make new PL wagers and may make new prop bets for the new come out roll. The game slows down, there may be some chatter, applauding, congratulations to the shooter, etc. The adrenaline level in the body tends to change slightly as well. One may relax a bit and start getting prepared for a new come out.

All these changes may have an effect even on the best of shooters. Furthermore, if you work all your come bets on the come out roll and lose your odds with an errant seven, the loss can be devastating mentally. Not to mention how it can impact your bankroll. That loss could seriously affect your attitude and future rolls.

For all these reasons and more that I am sure I am not remembering right now, I would not recommend working your odds on come out rolls even though the math shows that you can reduce your HA slightly by doing so. I don’t think the risk is worth the reward. The reduction in HA is slight but the downside can be far more disastrous.

Skinny, thank you for your time in putting the summary together. It seems like one of those, "even though it sounds like a good idea, that doesn’t mean you should necessarily do it" type of things. The risk versus reward of the errant seven would be one of my biggest hang-ups, especially when it’s not a guarantee that any one of your wagers gets paid out.

When I’m at the table and have the dice, it’s a mistake to keep your Come bets working on my Come-out roll. That’s because, on the Come-Out roll, I take the opportunity to relax. Consequently, a Skinny is more likely to show.

Skinny, thank you for your detailed reply on that math concerning keeping your bets working or not working on a come out roll.

Rose and Doc never have their odds working on a come roll after a point has been made. We do this for several reasons:

1. It is not what most players do and it makes us look like regular dice players.
2. As Preacher said we may tend to relax a bit and the ugly 7 just might appear.
3. Should you roll a seven on a come out roll with the odds working, you lose much more money and this can certainly be a devastating blow to your confidence and you still have the dice. It is bad enough to have that final 7 out and you lose all the money on the table, but you have time to relax and regroup until your next turn with the dice.
4. Lastly that come out roll after you make a point may be just an indication that you may make another quick 7 out.

To illustrate this 4th point during a session in AC recently, a good friend and GTC player had the dice. He got into a good roll. We were all come betting. We were all up on a bunch of numbers when he had a come out 7. This was probably on his 18th to 20th roll. All the bets came down. We then begin to make come bets and got up on several numbers with max odds and after several more hits he made his point and you guessed it, another come out 7. We begin making come bets again, had a couple of hits, and with only 2 box numbers covered he had his 7 out. He had a roll in the low 30’s. He all had between 16 and 18 bets in the rack will full odds and only 2 bets on the table. A net win of 14 to 16 each a very profitable tune with the dice.

And that my good GTC friends and buddies, that is why we come bet. The very best way to bet in the long run.

Rose and Doc

Now this doesn’t have to do with working the come bet, but working bets in general. Before I had taken the GTC course I was trying different betting methods, one thing I did try was working my bets during come out because I would hardly ever show a 7 during the come out. Yea it worked a few times but eventually the 7 showed during one of my come out rolls, and since I had done this a few times before with good results this time I went heavier on my bets for the come out, a $128 across from a usual $64 across(Yes everyone I know now after taking the course this was an absolutely retarded bet). As Doc said that is a serious blow to the confidence when you have the dice and that happens, on top of that the amount of the loss vs the wins doing it did not equal out, the 1 loss on come out trumped the other wins during come out. And also as Doc said that 7 may be an indication that you may also make another quick 7 out, when your confidence takes the hit from the loss of your working bets during the come out that next 7 out is coming and sooner than you expect, in my case it was only the 3rd roll after the devastating come out roll, box number to craps to 7. You can get away with it for a time but eventually the math will catch up to you and when it does it likes to bite. So not just for the reasons listed by Skinny, Preacher, and Doc but from also personal experience I have to say it is not worth the risk to work bets on come out.

Skinny, thanks for the math lesson.
Now that I know that working your bets on the come out rolls will lower the house edge I had to rethink my advice on this issue,
As Skinny so wisely stated,
"If you have an advantage when you roll because of your skill, it is to your advantage to leave your bets working on the come out rolls."
This is a big point of contention for me. Knowing that you have an edge and what it is, is first and foremost.
Now that I know that we can lower our edge, and potentially make some more money I can’t continue to dismiss working bets on the come out out of hand.
That being said I still have a couple of things that I have to remind everyone about.
#1. The edges that Skinny was talking about were on come bets NOT place bets. You will not gain any advantage working place bets on the come out.
#2. Working bets on the come out is not a normal way to play and I must caution you that doing this only on your turns with the dice will draw attention. Some scoff at my concerns about getting negative attention shooting dice. This is a real problem at many places and you will have to consider how this attention may affect you, both during your hands and how it may affect your longevity at that casino.
Those are my cautions. I also want to remind the place bettors that the easiest way to make money is tossing 7’s on the come out, which is exactly my play when I’m shooting and making place bets.
Good luck everyone.
BTK

Great points Skinny and Billy!

Dom