Great topic on the decision. The argument is strong to both sides. But I’m generally on the side you tend to come down on… don’t change a thing. It’ll happen when it happens. I agree with your comment on pounding out the box numbers. At that point, your box numbers are building steam and 2-3 hits covers it. The easiest decision in live play is no decision… hardway set 3’s up….. hardway set 3’s up…. hardway set 3’s up. No thinking on that, just watch the dice and make sure they’re being thrown right. That’s where my energy needs to stay.

Love hearing from my favorite craps couple!

Don

You have nothing to gain by throwing the 12 and everything to loose.

If you throw it you loose the pass line the table will go crazy which will totally change the environment at the table, which will totally change the speed of the game, which will change the speed you get the dice at, which will change your rhythm, that will change your shot.

So I ask you why?

What will you gain if you throw it

Doc,

I have read, but not verified, that if you roll a 7, bringing down your come bets, you can optionally pay the total of your come bets and keep them up. From the casino’s point of view, you would be giving up the 7/11 advantage of the roll establishing the come bet, to the casino’s advantage. To the shooter’s interest, you would not have to hit a point again to establish the come bet.

Then again, if the casino allows rebuying the come bets, why not let anyone buy a come bet to start, with odds, instead of Place bets, right?

Any truth to that? If not, it must have one dealer’s weak moment that allowed that.

Preacher,

Don’t know the exact math, but the house vig on re-establishing the come bets (called a put bet) after an unfortunate come out 7, can be higher. There is a post by Skinny that you need to be able to have a lot of odds–at least five times odds or more comes to mind–to bring down the house vig. Also you need to look at what pays the most on a win—the put bet with odds or simply a place bet to cover the lost come bet.

Hope that helps.

Rose and Doc

Well I agree with most about changing your set . The thing about rhythm of your throw and speed of dice getting back to you . The distraction if it does not bother you would make a big difference .You said that you had 5 come bets up but what if you only had 2 would that change your thoughts about doing this ?
I could see were this may change your thoughts a little .
Since this was practice you wasted some time thinking about this so it is not a good example to use . You need to do it in practice with out thinking about it .Just like practice with chips and not having to think about your bets .
I vary seldom use come bets so on come out rolls I change my set with the 6 and 5 on top .Relax a little and take a breath so to speak . If I do have come bets out I just use the same set .
I thought that on come outs you can bet the 7 for a replacement of them and the odds are the same . thought the put bet was the one that was made after the point was est. and you were not on the passline .
I remember one session at a casino were I rolled 3 times and there was a guy that would go across and take down his bets when they hit . Well I was just betting the 6 and 8 at that time . I rolled all the numbers even the 2 and 12 on all 3 rolls and 7 out after I rolled them all . At that time there was no STA bet and thought that it was real weird that I did this on all 3 rolls . This guy was vary happy with his wins tho . I never did make a point during the 3 rolls and left DOWN .
There was no repeat of numbers .
Good Rolling. 😀 😉

I am of the opinion that if the shooter is going to make the STA bet, then he should attempt to win it if the opportunity presents itself.

Modifying the Hardways set so that the 6s and 1s are on axis on a come out roll should be a trivial modification for the shooter if they are making a high house advantage bet. It should be part of their game plan and practice routine before attempting a STA bet.

If the shooter does not have a STA bet at stake no changes should be made.

Doc

One thing you can do, if playing that bet is something a person does…. is set for craps on your first come out
roll. You throw a 2/12/3/11 great that is one less to hit, a seven does not hurt you since you covered the
ATS bet with your pass line bet.

I have got to the 12 or two so many times I cant count… so I would rather make money the old fashion
way…

gman

I went back and looked at practice throws . I would have hit the small 12 times with hitting the tall 6 times and the ALL JUST ONE time . That made it a bad bet with betting it over 100 times . It is surprising how many good rolls that you can have and not hit that 2 or 12 and even some times an 6 or 8 to not get that win . My lowest hit was on 13 rolls and the highest was on a 44 roll . The all hit was on a 24 roll .
The small went like this . 1 13 roll ,2/14 rolls, 2/15 rolls,1/16 roll, 2/17 rolls, 1/20 roll,1/23 roll ,1/24 roll,1/33 roll .
Tall was 1/13 roll ,1/15 roll, 1/16 roll .1/19 roll .1/32 roll, 1/44 roll .
ALL was 1 /24 roll .
Now I know why I stay away from this bet . Skinnys math did help tho .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Finisher, a great analysis. You are correct. It is a bad bet just like most all prop bets.

Doc and Rose

Keep with the HardSet. When I hit the STA I always see a couple of green chips roll my way from other players, which btw, feel great.

-Mr. PiP

My feelings on this is if you want to play it, play it, but DON"T think about it just shoot and if it comes it comes. Don’t switch sets because you are then thinking about it and when you shoot you want to shoot with what I call and "empty mind" – no thoughts just muscle memory taking over

Dom

"Finisher" wrote: I went back and looked at practice throws . I would have hit the small 12 times with hitting the tall 6 times and the ALL JUST ONE time . That made it a bad bet with betting it over 100 times . It is surprising how many good rolls that you can have and not hit that 2 or 12 and even some times an 6 or 8 to not get that win . My lowest hit was on 13 rolls and the highest was on a 44 roll . The all hit was on a 24 roll .
The small went like this . 1 13 roll ,2/14 rolls, 2/15 rolls,1/16 roll, 2/17 rolls, 1/20 roll,1/23 roll ,1/24 roll,1/33 roll .
Tall was 1/13 roll ,1/15 roll, 1/16 roll .1/19 roll .1/32 roll, 1/44 roll .
ALL was 1 /24 roll .
Now I know why I stay away from this bet . Skinnys math did help tho .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

I bet it and hit it, but again, our throw should not be hitting the 2/12, and the 3/11 is a single yaw of one die. I recall my last Vegas class, one of the students threw a 51. He hit the small but never threw a 7 or 12 in the 50 rolls. Those rolls are technically either a mistake or the pyramids doing their job in identical ways. Most of mine are mistakes :-/, but I hit it enough in practice and in live play to really like that bet. But I never think about it as Dom noted. I throw my hardway, 3’s up, 5’s facing… period. I recall one attempt where I was in the 20’s and could not for the life of me hit the 8! Frustrating for a 20+ hand.

Don

With 5 come bets up (I’m guessing with max odds or close to it), I would stick with my hardways set. 2 "off and on" and the rack looks the same. Plus using the same set means one less thing for me to think about. When I think, bad things happen.

My first question is how do you know you need a twelve for the All bet? Why are you paying attention to this nonsense in the first place?

Next, why are you thinking about this? Even if somehow it was pointed out to you that you needed a twelve, why do you care? This bet has no effect on you so why do you have a decision to make?

When you hear someone betting a yo, any craps, ace-deuce or some other stupid bet on a come out roll, do you stop to think, "Gee, I should set for a ? so that this idiot making some stupid bet wins his dumb wager"???

You have one job when you have the dice, avoid throwing a seven. That is the only place you need to focus your attention. Pay attention to your own betting, keep track of your bets and avoid throwing a seven. Just like Cool Hand Luke, you got to get your mind right.

I don’t care if it is practice or you are dreaming in your sleep. The only thing you need to be doing is avoid throwing a seven.

Any time you are thinking at the tables you are making a mistake. Everything you do should be on autopilot. Every bet you make should be automatic. You should know exactly what wager you are going to make in every situation. The only thing you need to do with your set is look at how the dice are going to be passed to you by the stickman in order to know how you are going to set them in one motion for each die. Grip, aim, throw. No thinking.

AMEN Brother Skinny!

Dom