It is GREAT that you replied to a student . Now here is the But . I thought a little less said is better on this site . You could have left out a little more and still got your point across . I always advise for new students to go back and read ALL old posts .It helps to answer most questions they may have .
Then if they have any to bring them up .I did this when I first started just to not ask what has already been said more then once . You also learn a lot from them .
This site has had its up and downs threw the years that I have been on it ,but it is getting better with the instructors in their replies .
When I first got on no one wanted to say anything till you took the class .Not all can take the class right off the bat .
Keep up the good work and Good Rolling. 😀 😀

Hi guys, well where i throw at i always tip the dealers. And they ALL, I mean All appreciate my tipping. It always looks as if I’m the only one that tips the dealers. As of right now, they know my name. And yes I do get special treatment. They don’t give me any grief of any kind. I always get a "thank you" from all four people working at the table. Yes, even the box person likes it and is kind to me. They do let me get away with things that other players would get a little hell from. And when I’m throwing from SL1 the stick person leans away from me to give me room to shoot. In which I deeply appreciate it cuz it sometimes looks as if I’m going to hit the stick person with my throwing hand.

Fourten,

You response to this good thread brings me to a question that I have never seen any numbers put to.

Yes, I believe in tipping also, but I have never seen any numbers as to what it costs me percent wise and/or what mr SRR has to be to overcome both the regular house advantage and the cost of my tip.

Has anyone ever seen those statistics anywhere?

I know I could compute them but don’t want to reinvent the wheel if someone has already done the math.

I’m a $5 bettor if that is available with a dollar on top and know the answer will be different if the deal only get the winnings or if he get the $1 also.

Dom/Doc maybe I should have started a new subject and not hijack this thread. If so, feel free to move it.

Thanks.

Noah

Noah,

What a great question. But the math of computing those numbers would be way above our pay grade!!! SKINNY HELP!!!

Rose and Doc

Just a thought on this and I most certainly am NOT Skinny! 😀

Seems to me that a person’s SRR would not really need to change if you include a tip. The same HA would be working against your Passline bet no matter the amount you place on the Passline—1.41%. If you put your tip on the feature bet then the HA is much greater on that dollar than on the Passline. Your skill has to overcome the HA on any bet. If you can overcome 1.41 on the Passline with your skill with $5 then you can do it with $6. I think the betting amount including the tips has to do more with the bankroll issue of each individual player. I certainly do agree that there is a cost of doing business with each tip but I think it can just plainly be computed in a dollar amount and not an issue with shooting percentage.

These are just my thoughts and I have certainly been wrong before. Look forward to this discussion!

I have often wondered this as well. I place a white chip on top of my line bet and another one beside it. When I win, I take the winnings from my line bet to replace the dealer line bet so, theoretically, I am only risking the initial $2. Doesn’t always work out that way with come-out craps throws. Anyway, Getagrip’s thoughts seem spot on. I don’t think it changes your edge, just the amount you are risking.

I, too, am very interested to see what Skinny and the other math-savvy GTC’ers have to say about it.

Yes, I don’t really care to much what are the HA or any kind of percentage this may affect my bank roll. This is how Dom thought us. So I really don’t calculate any kind of that nature.

I guess there are two ways of looking at this.

I tend to agree with getagrip who views the $1 as a tip and not as a wager. In other words you are tipping the dealers in order to reward them for good service to you. It is up to you to determine how much you think their service is worth. I have found in general, tipping has provided a worthwhile benefit to me. I appreciate the service I receive from the dealers (how I am treated) and believe they deserve to be tipped for going above and beyond what is required of them in the performance of their duties. I do not view any tips I give them as part of my wagers. That being the case, I do not take the tips into account when determining the house advantage. I only consider the wagers I make for myself and what they pay.

Now another way of looking at it would be to take the opposite view. You could consider the tip as part of your wager. In other words you are wagering $6 on the pass line and only being paid $5 when you win that wager and lose $6 when that wager loses. Proponents of this viewpoint would consider it necessary for one to wager $6 in order to win $5 on the pass line. Opponents of this viewpoint, of which I am one, would consider it tantamount to saying you are betting an extra $1 for which you do not receive any benefit. You lose that dollar when it loses and don’t win anything in return when it wins. I think you do receive something in return for the extra dollar but it is not possible to quantify it in monetary terms. Hence I do not like to include it in my calculations of house advantage.

However, to satisfy those that want to know what it means to calculate it as a strict wager with no benefit this is what it would mean. Winning $5 for a $6 wager on the pass line would increase the house advantage significantly from 1.41% to 9.63%. In order to overcome a HA of 1.41%, you only need an SRR of 6.23. But to overcome a HA of 9.63% you now need an SRR of 7.91.

Of course this would be the worst case scenario. The numbers would decrease if you had $10 or more on the line with a $1 tip on top. That is because you would now be betting $11 in order to win $10 which is better than $6 to win $5. It would also change if you had $1 on top and $1 on the side. That would be because you would be betting $7 initially to win $5 but on subsequent wins you would only be betting $5 to win $5 since the $1 on top would suffice to replace the $1 on the side and remain on top. Of course you would lose $7 when the wager lost.

Thanks Skinny,

I thought our tipping had a big cost if you are a $5 bettor, but had never thought it through.

Noah

I have never thought about the change in the house advantage with the one dollar added to my line bet with a dollar on the side . But this sure does change it more then I thought that it would .Even more so with adding a dollar in odds to dealer bet after each win I would think .
This may change the way I bet for the dealers .If I have a few point 7s out in a row I do stop betting for dealers till I have some wins to make up for those losses .
I like it because it is easy to just take the added dollar and move it over to the side instead of taking out of rack .As for a loss I just take that as part of the playing .
Good Rolling. 😀

Finisher,

Your response was why I asked the question. I believe in tipping and do so every time I’m rolling, however I don’t tip if I go down on someone else rolling usually until/unless I have a natural winner on the come out.

Noah

The first time I ever read anything about the cost of tipping was when Doc was a reporter for the now retired Blackjack Forum by Arnold Snyder. There was an article concerning the cost of various playing decisions in blackjack and what the cost was in terms of house advantage (HA). The question was "what is the cost of a $5 bet for the dealer?" Obviously the cost is (a drum roll please) "$5.00." DUH!!!!!

Doc kinda uses this as a gauge. If I go to a restaurant and the meal cost $25.00 and I leave a $5,00 tip the meal costs $30.00. It is simply the cost of the meal–or the cost to play craps or blackjack. In both cases if you get good service.

By the way here is how Doc tips the craps dealer–something a little different that what Dom teaches in class, yet very very similar. Not a better or worse way to tip–just a little different. It words for Doc.

Assume a $10 table. I place a $1 chip on top of all my pass line bets. I like to get the dealer in the game with an odds bet so here what I do depending on what number is my point:

If the point is a 4 or 10, I place an additional $1 on top of my line bet. If the bet wins the dealer gets paid $1 on the pl bet and $2 on the odds bet for a total win of $3.

If the point is a 5 or 9, I place $2 on top of my odds bet. If the bet wins the dealer gets paid the $1 on the pl bet and $3 on the odds bet for a total win of $4.

If the point is a 6 or and 8, I place $5 on top of my odds bet. If the bet wins the dealer gets the $1 on the pl bet BUT only $1 of the $6 win on the extra $5 odds bet for a collection of $2. I put the $5 in the rack.

It words for Doc and the dealer always appreciate the bet.

Not if I get into a really great roll—defined as 25 to 30 rolls with a nice win in the rack, I may place the 6 and 8 for the dealer for $6 each–telling him that I control the bet–and I will give him the win. If the pit boss says I cannot control the bet–in effect telling me the dealer will win the bet and the win. I say no problem, No bet for the deal I simply place the 6 and 8 for $6 each and when win I simply pay the $7 win to the dealer.

Also in AC, in many of the casinos you can place any of all of the box numbers for $1 and the bet will pay the dealer 2 to 1. This is a great advantage over the house for the dealer—especially on the 5,6,8, and 9.

Doc

Ummm… Thanks for taking that diversion from student inspiration to "what does it cost to tip " 🙄 Now here is my response to doc. Jan. 15th @ 12:54am

Hi Doc,

Thanks so much for the email. As a student, we need all the inspiration to keep us moving. An example, I made a roll tracker for another student and he was averaging a SRR slightly higher than 7.0 in the thousands and he just stopped practicing. I did not ask why, I try to keep focus on my own objective. But I know one thing, I still have the fire in my belly, My hunger? probably the challenge more than the money and this just really keeps me motivated along with reading the wisdom on the GTC board from the masters and seeing the positive results.

I would normally be hanging out at this time kicking back some drinks and doing what single guys do. Instead I found it more fun to save my money and practice on my rig, simulate my betting strategy with a make believe bankroll and study the results.

I believe self-discipline and self-awareness are very important qualities to have in this DC journey.

I still have that trip report from the beginning Jan. and maybe a post on my practice rig repair.

As always, I will look forward to seeing you and Rose in the next class I will most likely be in the AC April 2017 class.

I started a new practice roll-set for 2017

Date session ID IN out Bal Win/Loss hands Notes
===== ======= === === ==== ======= ==== ======
1/13/2017 10 600 780 3455 180.00 10
1/14/2017 11 600 120 2975 (480.00) 3 * First two hands, I was wiped out on the 4th throw. Third hand I hit my point, but wiped out before I can hit another come or point.
1/14/2017 12 600 845 3220 245.00 10 "Rolled many teens before sevening out
1086/SRR 6.07"
1/14/2017 13 600 550 3170 (50.00) 10 "Rolled some high teens and twenty but alot was not hitting my come or point more often but noticed alot of throws was on axis.
1174/SRR 6.21"
1/15/2017 14 600 595 3165 (5.00) 3 Rolled one 10+. Felt a little back pain. Sort of even out, Dice more on axis. SSR went down a bit couple of sevens on the come out.. 1201/SSR 6.19
1/15/2017 15 600 545 3110 (55.00) 10 "Took a couple of good beatings where I SO early or Wiped out.. Some double pitch SOs.. Last hand came back some.
1260/SRR 6.15"

– Mr. PiP