No come bet or don’t come bets can not be made until a point has been established!

Noah

Thanks ACPA!

Thought that would be the answer since it would not benefit the casino to let someone bet in this manner but good to hear from someone who knows for sure. Much appreciated!

You can play the pass and don’t pass on the come out roll, you also can play a come and don’t come bet at the same time after the point is established but why if the 12 come up you push on one and lose on the other, there is no way to make money you either push or lose, so why?

Hi BMan,

Long time no hear from! 😀

As I said in my first post. It is just a rule I wanted to be clear about. Also said that I probably would never use it. Knew that you could not put out a Come bet until a Pass Line was established. (And why would you as you would end up with a double loss on a craps roll but more importantly would be on the same number with two contract bets) Just never knew for sure that the rule applied to Don’t Pass bets as well with regards to a Come bet. Knowledge is power and I learn new things every day of my life and that includes things about the game I love!

Dice are Out!

Come, don’t come, pass, don’t pass all the same just with opposite rules one you win on the 7,11 one you lose on it.

One is used before the point one is used after the point is established.

Now there is one slight variance with the don’t side you do not have to go to the number that was established, yes you can wave it off, what I am saying is say you put a don’t come bet up and the 6 is thrown you can leave your bet on the don’t come people do this all the time yes it is dumber than dumb but it is done, also you can take down the contract part of a don’t bet at any time unlike a come bet contract has to stay up.

They will let you take the contract part down simply because it is in there best interest, why? Well when a don’t bet goes up it now wins on the seven so you have the advantage over the house so why not let you take it down.

Say your dc bet goes to the six there is 5 combinations of the 6 but there is 6 combinations of the seven, 5 ways to lose 6 ways to win.

People wave of the 6 and 8 on the dc all the time because of all the combos on it but there are still more combos of the seven so why, who knows.

Now for all the guys out there looking for the perfect way to win here it is, 150 dollar dc when it goes to the number let say the nine you place the nine for 150, now if the 9 hits you collect 210 and you lose 150 60 dollar profit after it hits take the nine down and place another dc.

BM,

You choose to ignore the fact that you will lose more don’t pass flat bets before you get a point established than you will win.

Noah

Guys,
There’s sevelal passages to this in craps books. It is called the Doey-Don’t method. Read up on it as I may not explain it correctly, but I’ll try.

At a $5 table:
Put a pass and Don’t pass bet for $5. The only way you lose is if the 12 is thrown on the cutout.
Depending on the number thrown you can either put odds behind either Pass or Don’t pass.
Therefore you are only playing for the odds portion of the bet since the Pass/Don’t Pass cancel each other out.
I believe the point of this is to increase the total odds you are playing for. Example

Regular pass line bet – Six is the point. 30 odds behind the pass line. Pays 5 for the pass line and 36 for the odds. Total win 35/41 =
Doey-Don’t – $5 both pass & don’t pass and 30 odds behind. Since the 5’s cancel you get 36 in odds = total win 30/36

You can see from the table below the Doey-Don’t (first line) offers a little better odds than a pass line with odds.

Less 12 loss
4 & 10 30 60 2.000 1.972
4 & 10 35 65 1.857

5 & 9 30 42 1.400 1.372
5 & 9 35 47 1.343

6 & 8 30 36 1.200 1.172
6 & 8 35 41 1.171

36 1 0.028

I think that this type of player is hoping to get up on ALL the numbers then have the point made with a come out 7 next for a win on all but one bet .I may be wrong but the DP wins on all his bets and they come down . He then starts all over again .
So even tho he may not look like he wants you to make the point he indeed may only if you have a come out 7 .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Re: Fun betting on ploppies

by Stickman » 18 Dec 2012 21:48

The problem with the Doey-Don’t is the house edge. If you do one come bet for $5 the house has a 7 cent edge regardless of odds placed as there is no edge on odds (7 cents is 1.4 percent). If you place a don’t come bet for $5, the house has about a 7 cent edge. If you do a come bet and a don’t come bet for $5 each (doey-don’t), the house has about a 14 cent edge (7 cents for the come, 7 cents for the don’t come).

The house extracts its edge on each and every bet. You are much better off just picking either a come or a don’t come bet for $5 and just go with that. The house has half the edge it has on a doey-don’t bet.

Re: Fun betting on ploppies

by Skinny » 19 Dec 2012 11:40

Stick is correct, you will lose twice as much betting the doey-don’t for $5 each way than if you just bet $5 on the pass or don’t pass.

I realize it is counter intuitive since the 12 comes up so seldom in a random game. After all, the expected one time out of every 36 rolls seems like it hardly ever happens. But in fact you do not lose all that much with only a single pass or single don’t pass bet either. It only seems like we lose more on the pass or don’t pass because one hardly ever only makes a single wager. It is often combined with odds and other wagers. Thus it seems like we lose so much on a seven out that the pass line appears to be a high loss wager.

But the math never lies. Casinos depend on it. They build multimillion dollar buildings, pay salaries of many workers and make a tidy profit all based on the math of the game. We need to get in the habit of depending on the math the same way the casino moguls do if one expects to have a chance at being successful in this game that is stacked against us by the math. Let us look at how the math works on the pass, don’t pass and doey-don’t wagers in an attempt to show how the pass or don’t pass is really a pretty low risk wager in and of itself.

If you were to make 1980 wagers on the pass line, you could expect to win your bet 976 times and lose it 1004 times. Hence you could expect to lose only 28 pass line wagers out of 1980. As an aside, 28 divided by 1980 equals .0141 or 1.41% which is the house advantage on the pass line. So if you were to bet $1 on the pass line 1980 times you could expect to lose only $28 out of $1980 wagered.

Now if the house did not bar the twelve on the don’t pass and you made 1980 wagers on the don’t you could expect the exact opposite. You would expect to win 1004 wagers and lose 976 wagers. Since the house does not want you to have an advantage on the don’t, they bar the twelve and make it a push when the 12 comes out. You can expect to see 55 twelves in 1980 don’t pass wagers. Thus we have to take away 55 of the twelves from the 1004. You can expect to win on the don’t 949 times and lose 976 times. Out of 1980 wagers you can expect to lose 27 times on the don’t pass. As an aside, 27 divided by 1980 equals .0136 or 1.36% which is the house advantage on the don’t pass wager. So if you were to bet $1 on the don’t pass line 1980 times you could expect to lose only $27 out of $1980 wagered.

But if you were to bet the doey-don’t 1980 times you would have to bet $1 on the pass and $1 on the don’t pass. Since we know the 12 is expected to come up 55 times, you could expect to lose $55 when playing the doey-don’t 1980 times. Those of you who are astute in math may notice that you will have lost $55 out of $3960 wagered. Thus the house advantage on the doey-don’t is also a low 1.39%. But the problem is you have to make two wagers on the doey-don’t vs. only one wager on the pass or don’t pass. So even though the house advantage is about the same you have to bet twice as much on the doey-don’t and therefore can expect to lose twice as much.

You see even though it seems like the twelve hardly ever comes up and it actually does not come up all that often. After all one time out of every 36 rolls is not a frequent occurrence. The pass line or don’t pass line do not lose all that much either. A house advantage of 1.41% or 1.36% means the frequency of loss is fairly low. When Frank says to make only one wager on a random roller for the minimum he is giving you sound advice. Your frequency of loss will be as low as it is on the doey-don’t but you will only be wagering half as much. We get into trouble when we let our "intuition" take over. Our memories are selective. We remember the time we lost a pass line wager 10 times in a row or 20 times out of 25. But we tend to forget when a shooter makes 5 passes before establishing his point or makes 10 passes along with making 4 points. It is a cyclical game because that is the nature of randomness. But in the long run the math will hold up. Over the long haul of your lifetime of gaming you can expect to lose 7 cents for every $5 you ever wagered on the pass or don’t pass on random rollers. Those are the facts and they will hold up over your lifetime if you play as much as most on this board tend to play over your lifetime. Your memory or "intuition" will not alter the math of the game. So stick with the best bets and follow the advice of GTC. They have thought this through and used it in practice. It is sound advice based on mathematics and experience of some very serious individuals who collectively have developed a "best practice" set of guidelines.

what if you are just playing for the comp< does that not make this a successful way to go

"brothelman" wrote: what if you are just playing for the comp< does that not make this a successful way to go

No, it is not even close. Comps are normally calculated as a percentage of your expected loss. You can expect to lose twice as much playing the doey-don’t vs. playing the pass/come/don’t pass/don’t come as single wagers not combined. The comps you may receive will only be a small portion of that loss. That is if they even count your wager in the comp system. Some casinos do not even count a doey-don’t bet for comps because they have the misguided idea that it has a lower risk than a line wager by itself.

Let us say a casino is willing to give you back 40% of your expected loss in their comp system. If you play the doey-don’t and have an expected loss of $100, that casino gives you back $40 leaving a net loss of $60. On the other hand if you bet the pass line by itself, your expected loss would be approximately 1/2 the amount you could expect to lose with the doey-don’t. Thus you could expect a loss of around $50. You would get back $20 in comps leaving a net loss of $30.

Thus playing for comps you have a net loss of $60 with the doey-don’t vs. $30 playing a line wager by itself.

Thank you skinny, so you are saying the only way to win is a great throw with a proper release?

That is exactly what I am saying.

There is a reason casinos make money when the game is random. They did not leave any betting loopholes that can be exploited to the advantage of the player.

The only way to win is to develop a great throw with a proper release and make low house edge wagers which your edge can overcome.