Berto,

Since Hardnine hasn’t responded yet, I will … I thought you said you were done with the rant LOL …. it’s all good. 😀 I agree with some points that you make.

Yes, I do play the ATS, Fire, Repeater, usually whatever they got. The reason, you never know when lightening will strike. But, I will not play much on them. Sometimes I do prefer to play a plain crap table with none of those on it. Most others will shy away, leaving you the most room.

Even on myself, I generally won’t play more the $2 each. This is due to, like you say, if your dice are staying on axis, you should never get any of the horn numbers, thereby, never hitting the ATS, unless you change your set on come out rolls to try and get those numbers.

I would much rather bet an any of the original box numbers, and have someone hit that number 10-15 times. Guaranteed to make more off that then the feature bet. I do see many people that just play the feature, and get upset because you just threw 5 come out 7’s, and they were betting $15 – $35 on the ATS. But their money, their loss.

The one thing that I am kind of confused about, is the first statement of hitting 9 points more often than 10. I’m not sure if you mean points, or if you mean just numbers, I’m assuming numbers. The thing with the ATS is, you can throw the dice 11 times, never make a point, or repeat a number, but still win on the ATS. Basically roll the numbers in the following order 6,4,2,8,10,12,3,9,11,5,7. Does this make it a good bet, absolutely not.

From some of my playing time, I agree with the box people hating it. I think this is due to when there are a lot of come out 7’s, people changing their bets, or when someone gets the dice to scatter all the chips. When everyone keeps those bets the same, they can set them realtively fast, imo, so they don’t have to think about it. That’s why I try to keep mine the same, so they can set it up quickly, and not ice the shooter in the middle of their roll.

EYEZ

Sorry that I didn’t respond quick enough, I was interrupted on the first read making sure you didn’t make any changes. So I’ll say it again….

AMEN!!!

PREACH IT BROTHER BERTO!!!

For crying out loud. A single hit on a $30 6/8 makes up for the Small or Tall, let alone the later ones after pressing and making more than the all. There is no way in this world that I’m setting for the 12, which on several recent outings I’ve not thrown in live play; once in IN on a long roll, and once in the Poconos where this lady HAD to hit the 12 as she kept putting her money there. It’s just not a number that I’m going to hit if I can help it. I’ll hit the ace-deuce and yo if one die flips, but usually not both to hit aces or midnight.

At any rate, those who make it to the team tourney tomorrow night will have an interesting philosophical and team play discussion on the topic of changing sets to make the TSA feature. I just don’t want my $$$ at risk when you go after it like that.

If I am playing with anyone, anywhere, anytime where you are changing your dice set to try to make the STA, please yell out "ROSEBUD" so I can turn my bets off!!!

Thanks Berto, I’m right there with you. Will miss you tomorrow!

Don

Bonus bets

Some are better than others, but that does not mean you have to fall
in love with them, or bet so much it wrecks your edge.

Sunday I hit 3 sides of the bet, I was ahead for the day on the
ATS bet, but three times I had only 1 more number to hit
for it all, and that would have provided a nice profit.

For the GTC guys, the best bet I have ever seen is on the west table at
the Gold Coast….. 2,3,4,5,6 repeater bet. $5 bet covers $1 on each, get
2 aces and you win $30, 3 threes $40, 4 fours $50, 5 fives $60 and 6 6’s
I think is $80 or $90. One $5 and you have a chance to win all. If you
think you can hit the 4, only bet on the 4, you don’t have to bet all
five numbers.

If we are on, 4 4’s is not out of line , nor is 5 5’s. or 6 6’s. You don’t need to
change sets .

We work so hard at this game, bonus bets add some fun and we can make
some money if we don’t get so goofy we mess up the effect of our advantage.

gman

"Eyez" wrote: Berto,

Since Hardnine hasn’t responded yet, I will … I thought you said you were done with the rant LOL …. it’s all good. 😀 I agree with some points that you make.
…
The one thing that I am kind of confused about, is the first statement of hitting 9 points more often than 10. I’m not sure if you mean points, or if you mean just numbers, I’m assuming numbers. The thing with the ATS is, you can throw the dice 11 times, never make a point, or repeat a number, but still win on the ATS. Basically roll the numbers in the following order 6,4,2,8,10,12,3,9,11,5,7. Does this make it a good bet, absolutely not.
…

You’re right, "points" is the wrong word. 9 numbers more often than 10 is what I mean. Yes, you’re also right, there are certainly cases where the ATS will win and place bets won’t. You get that it will be exceedingly rare, right? People betting on lightning strikes is how the casino improves its edge.

I want some math here, gonna do some Googling.

Edit: here we are Better than 7% house edge. So, it’s still not as shitty as a hardway bet, but you’d be better off just throwing your ATS money on the Field.

This means I may be wrong. It may not make the most money, but I still guess that it does. Why? Because a) the casino has their most highly paid employee on the table booking it and b) I am always asked by the Box if I want to bet it at the beginning of a session.

This goes back to Dom’s rules of betting. It may seem like fun, but losing isn’t fun. That’s what you will do most often. Your brain will remember the times it paid you big, not the times the PSO took your fun money.

This is indeed a great thread. Rose will bet a little on the ATS, and FIRE on GTC players only—the fire bet is preferred, since a come out 7 will not take down your bet. Only the final seven out on the fire bet takes your money down on those "super bets."

Doc want make these bets as the casino edge is too high. I know a win can be exciting and fun, but in my humble opinion winning is not only the most fun BUT THE BEST AND ONLY FUN!!!!

Doc never make the bonus bets at table games such as Pow Gai Poker when and if he plays.

When I have my casino, my box people are going to ask new players at the table if they’d like to hop the hardways. 😆

My favorite is the fire bet

But, I love the sharpshooter bet in Colorado — it’s a bet that all of us GTC-ers should be able to crush

On my southern trip last month I was BSing with a the Box the last night I played.

This casino has the ATS. Bet and he said i see you never make a wager on it, he then said I was smart because the casino makes a fortune on it.

Stay away it is a looser

I just got back from Laughlin were one dealer was talking to another about how the new lay out will take up the whole table . He said it was a new bet that they will be getting he did not say when tho .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

It’s interesting that there isn’t agreement / standardization on this within the layout. NW Hoosierland casino has been adding it. The first layouts have it all the way on top, right in front of box. Besides them hating it for the work it causes, it’s completely in the way when the bank is being re-loaded and incoming $$$ are being counted. So now they’ve gone to a second attempt and squeezed down the hop bets and put the ATS on top of that, shifting the work for the bets to the stick. They now have 3 layouts, without ATS, ATS on top, ATS on top of HOP. The 3 14′ that always open first all have it, and either 3 or 4 of the 6 12′ including the Diamond and Seven Stars tables have it.

At the casino just to the east where I played some on Monday, there was one hand where the ATS was reset with come out 7’s no less than 5 times, every single bettor on ATS reset their bets…. AMAZING foolishness!

You said Diamond and Seven Star tables .Are these for that type of player only ?
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Yes Finisher, those tables require the stated status to play on them. However, they’re usually only opened at relatively busy times, and the 3@14′ will be opened first before they dig into the 12′ pit.

This line in the original post had me in stitches for a few minutes:

It encourages camping the table by players who think scratch-off lotto is a square deal.

On the other hand, I have a question. If one is using the hardway set it would seem to me that the chances for a 7 are not greater if you set 6-6 on top than if you set any other pair on top. Yes?

Hit the All today during a 36-roll hand. I’m never going to hear the end of it. 🙄

How much on?

Zero! Read my original post! I only bet the ATS when it’s the emphasis on a sarcastic joke.

At least in Indiana, it’s gotten to the point where the ATS is the game and traditional craps is this weird bet that only a few people play. After a player threw an All Small and then sevened out this weekend, a dealer said "at least we made one". I pointed out that the shooter hadn’t thrown a point and we both laughed.

Ah. Commonly "hit" means you bet and won. "Made" would be throwing them all.

Never got an answer on why setting 6-6 as a hardway would be different from just the regular hardway set. Anyone??

Love the 6-6 set on come out rolls because I bet the C&E when I shoot and can hit them and make money —

After point is established, I go back to regular hardway to hit box numbers

Think about the 6-6 set ….if you are on total axis, what box numbers are going to hit ??? — from my knowledge of the dice, it would be a HARD 4 and a HARD 10

forgot …..a 6/2 …..and a 5/1

you’d be "on" — but a bit of a pitch going on

I like the hardway set 99.9% of the time, unless I’m trying to hit a specific box number for the FIRE BET

The question was relating to the ATS bet and someone who said that setting for 12 or 2 would increase the chances of a 7.

the 12 set will generate more 6/1 or 5/2 than 4/3 if your shot is good ….i like the 12 set because I can hit horn numbers on come outs if I’m really on that day ….gives me a chance to pick up some bonus $$$

the hardway set will generate more 4/3 and 5/2 than 6/1, if you’re shot is good

6 out of 36 combos make a seven

Good Luck

"TheLion" wrote: the 12 set will generate more 6/1 or 5/2 than 4/3 if your shot is good ….i like the 12 set because I can hit horn numbers on come outs if I’m really on that day ….gives me a chance to pick up some bonus $$$

the hardway set will generate more 4/3 and 5/2 than 6/1, if you’re shot is good

6 out of 36 combos make a seven

Good Luck

Not for anything …… but jezzzzzzzzzzzzzz …… Are we trying to hit horn numbers which will only happen if you are hit primary numbers or or we trying to avoid the 7 and be a constant winner using the hardway set that if yo are "on" hitting hardways.

Not trying to be a dic*& here but people please remember what you are trying to do …. WIN …. and WINNING comes from doing the right thing at the craps table all the time.

I’m just saying 🙂

Dominator

That 36 was a thing of beauty, and the table went absolutely berserk on the ATS win! Berto and I just looked at each other (neither of us bet it)…. then waited the 10 minutes to pay the **** thing off and reset part of it.

Good shooting Berto, let’s stick to our guns! It’s getting harder, I know, after I hit it for the table at A* last visit. Still just trying to pound out the box numbers.

Dom …. thanks so much

Here’s what I do…..

I only use the 12-set on my INITIAL come-out roll on a FIRE BET table BEFORE I have the first point set-up. I try to take advantage of the power of the come out roll. I could care less about hitting a box number on my FIRST come out roll on a FIRE BET table ….I want to hit a 2, 3, 7, 11, 12 ….I will win some money on any of those numbers and I have 12 out of 36 (33%) chances to win something. If I hit a box number, the little loss is negligible, it does not matter to me which box number it is as I need to hit that number to have any chance to win the fire bet anyway. If I hit my first point, I NEVER use the 12-set again as my strategy changes to now trying to hit a different point in order to get closer to the fire bet win.

And, from what I’ve heard about the fire bet, my strategy to win a fire bet will be put into a museum and won’t matter anymore

I feel obligated to chime in on this topic.

In my experience the 2 and the 12 are doable numbers to hit. (I will explain later). In a normal hardway set the 1’s and 6’s are on the outside. Thus if we (GTC-ers) are throwing to PERFECTION those numbers will not appear often. Let me ask all the GTC-ers, which one of us always throws to a PERFECT toss? The pyramids at the end of the table insure we don’t always.

When I am shooting (and betting on the bonus) I always set the standard hardways for my shoot. As my shoot progresses and numbers are hit, I am conscience of what numbers are needed for the S-T-A bonus bet. Let’s say for arguments sake one of my throws are off and I hit the 1-2 (3) after I’ve hit the 4-5-6. Now I only need one number (the 1-1) to collect on that high odds bet. How about using another hard way set? Try setting the 1’s & 6’s around the barrel with say the 2’s and 5’s pointing out. This is a hard way set and produces the same protection against a seven as the standard hardway set. What this does is provide a way to hit the 2 & 12 just like any other hardway set using the standard hard way set.

Yes – the S-T-A is a high vig in the houses favor. When taken as a whole, especially with chicken feeders / random rollers this bet is a house favorite. With a controlled shooter the odds on this bet are severely reduced by our ability to influence the dice, avoid the seven and target specific numbers.

I do not know the math well enough to present an equation, but going from hitting six 6’s out of 36 rolls to five or four 6’s out of 36 rolls changes the odds dramatically. Now factor in the GTC-ers ability to target numbers lessens those odds even greater.

Case in point about controlled shooters – many of my fellow shooters have experienced on more than one occasion of the ability to target numbers. At a recent team shoot the 4 was established as my point, I put a hardway bet up for the crew ($1), one for me, changed my odds from $30 behind to $100, set the dice to hit the hard four, then immediately through the hard four (2 x 2). Again another example at a recent team shoot six 8 points were made on a roll of 22. When an eight was established the dice were set and the 8 was made.

The point I’m trying to make is with sufficient practice our skills can be honed to greatly reduce the house edge. Reducing the house edge factors in to proper mechanics, proper betting and not betting on chicken feeders.

I AM A BELIEVER IN BETTING THE S-T-A bonus on controlled shooters. Hope this give others pause for consideration.

Scooter (The Chicago Wrecking Crew) and organizer of the Assault on the HMS Majestic a few year back with Mike Eyez and Hard-Way Joe.

Scooter, I know we’ve talked quite a bit on this topic, but this came to mind. If you’re setting the 6’s in your HW set, you’re intentionally, as you’ve stated, setting to hit the craps and not the box numbers. As in your tremendous pounding of the 8’s last Saturday, if you’re suddenly setting to hit the ATS, and I now have 140 up on the 8 but you’re not going to hit it as much with the 6’s set, I am indeed at more risk as I don’t have nearly as many chances of getting my 6/8 as I do with the true HW set. So although I’m not necessarily at more risk of SO, I am at less chances for my 6/8 and other box numbers.

Oh, and welcome back to the forum! Nicely done, Berto!

Don

Don,
You are absolutely correct. You are less likely to cash in on the 8 if I’m setting the 6’s & 1’s in the hard way set. That is why we should develop some "table language" between us to alert our shooting team members.

Scooter

It’s not as bad as you think if you set with the 5s as the other side hardway. You will not get the 4-4 but you will still get 6-2 from a single pitch (unless it is a 5-1, 1-2 or 6-5) However, the point was to get the 12 and the 2 for the ATS and then change back.

If you are shooting for the horn numbers, why bother? Just figure the numbers you would have with your hardway set and hop them. It is the same thing. Put your $20 horn money as $5 each on the hard 8 and 6 and the 5-4 5-3, or 2-4, 2-3 That way you still hit your 8s and you hit a hop every once in a while.

This is not rocket science guys…

Oh, keep in mind that you give away a lot doing that.

The hardways should be 36-1 and you get 30 and likewise for the others, would be 18-1 and you get 15 Plus, you have to divide that by 4 because you miss the other three. Unless you are really pounding a single number it really is not a good bet at all.

Having said that, yesterday a guy bought in for $50 at the $25 table ( I learned later he had lost 1500 or so previously) Anyway, he hit with the guy before me on two numbers parleying the pass line once with small odds and a hardway before the 7. I was next. That was the roll I hit the 5 Fire and just pounded the 6. He parleyed the line bets a couple of times with single odds and hopped the soft 6s for half the time I hit them. AND, he hit them for his $200 hop sometimes but hit them as much for the $400 hop after losing on a $200 hop. After my roll he cashed out for $20,650.00 (yes those are the correct numbers after that $50 buy in.) I had kept joking with him that I was going to charge a commission. On his way out he tossed the dealers $250 and me a black. My rack was filled with black so I was happy and not jealous at all. But, keeping it jovial as I do I of course yelled, "That’s it? I was talking a decent percentage." Everyone laughed.

LMAO, was that a 140 dollar 8 or was a 150.

I already have the 3 and11 looking for the 2 and 12 but I use the 1,2,5,6 as the primary faces instead of the 2s and 5s replace them with the 3 and four at least then you are still throwing box numbers and not the 3 and 11 which you already have.

How about learning about your partners shot so you can look at it and see what is going on that way he only has to think about his toss and not try to keep you up to speed that is team play.

Now you all have some great ideas for gamblers but you can not win being a gambler even a very smart one with a great shoot the house edge is just way to big to over come, but maybe you are here for fun and that is out of this world.