Jes, you are one funny dude. LOL SORRY HAHA

Thanks… I think.

Anyway, just been out to the table to practice. "Lob" does not work for me. When I think "lob" I keep leaving it short. "Swing" seems to do it.

That does it for me too, Jes. I like swing.

The first definition of swing works well:

1. to cause to move to and fro, sway, or oscillate, as something suspended from above:
to swing one’s arms in walking.

I think so.

Swing arm and hold the dice loose enough to let the dice come out of my hand is the way I have been thinking about it. Had the "swing" but not "let the dice exit."

I will let you know if thinking of it that way that helps my throw. Enough of these 20s, I need a 50. Of course, then I will need a 60 etc. 🙂

Thanks.

Always strive for a longer hand, it is the competition in all of us.

IMHO, the word release is the correct word. You release a ball in pitching. Releasing iswhat we do, but you should not think of releasing the dice. In our very first lecture we talk about how you should’t think about the release. it is a natural thing. As we swing our hand backward we are creating energy, and then as we go forward on our swing we are creating forward energy.

We say in class that your thumb will "release: from te dice naturally and the forward energy that has been put on the dice will continue through out and naturally roll off your fingers. Then we talk about how your follow through needs to be exactly as you pick up the dice with your fingers together. The tooth pick trick works to help in this. Put a tooth pick between your index finger and middle finger, and between your middle finger and and your ring finger. From the pick up to the release and through the follow threw those tooth picks shuld stay between your fingers.

All this should be natural without any thought involved. No flipping of the wrist at the end as the dice are released. We always say in the lecture and through out the seminar to "Trust the GTC Throw". What we mean is that if you pick up the dice the way we say, and follow through with a straight line to the back wall, you do not need to add anything to the toss. All the forces of nature will take over and od the right thing. That is why you need to ne 110% perfect with your grip. We stress grip because that is where it all starts and ends. The grip creates the fulcrum for the energy that is created with the forward swing to have the dice stay on axis and get to the bak wall. No need to do anything extra.

As you can see Iused the word release in my write up. Using the words like exit, or lob or anything else in thie discussion just wouldn’t fit.

As we stay in class, stop thinking so much and just throw those dice the way you are taught 🙂

Dominator

Wow Dom, great explanation. I have read what you wrote several times now and I really like what you said.

It is funny. This entire topic reminds me of the discussions we used to have over lunch where we would talk about different aspects of the game ad nauseum. Everyone would assist in the analysis and in the end we would have a solid basis for the subject being discussed.

Reading this thread and what you wrote has made me give a lot of thought to the mechanics of the swing. You know how I love the cerebral aspect of pondering these type of issues.

I believe you are spot on in your explanation. Especially when you say there is a release involved. Specifically, I appreciated your opening,

IMHO, the word release is the correct word. You release a ball in pitching. Releasing is what we do, but you should not think of releasing the dice. In our very first lecture we talk about how you shouldn’t think about the release. it is a natural thing. As we swing our hand backward we are creating energy, and then as we go forward on our swing we are creating forward energy.

We say in class that your thumb will "release" from the dice naturally and the forward energy that has been put on the dice will continue through out and naturally roll off your fingers.

I only have one subtle change to suggest but I think it is significant and I will explain why. I believe rather than saying "your thumb will ‘release’ from the dice naturally", we should say "the dice will ‘release’ from your thumb naturally".

You see when I analyzed the mechanics, we know the dice are gripped primarily by the thumb and middle finger with the ring and index fingers lightly touching the dice for stability and to get the proper rotation at release (there’s that word again) as you also explain later in your post. You want the thumb and index finger to grip the dice as lightly as possible so that they do not fall out of your hand but no tighter than necessary to prevent that from happening. We also know you do not want to open your fingers or lighten your grip throughout any part of the swing of the dice and especially not at the release. You want the grip pressure to be the same while the dice are in your hand and after they have left your hand.

What that means is your grip remains constant (no change in tightness or pressure on the dice through the entire swing) as the energy created by the forward swing cause the dice to "release" from the thumb first and then roll off the fingers second. By looking at it this way I think one is less likely to open up ones hand because it is the dice doing the "releasing" not the thumb.

At the moment of release it is the dice that release from the thumb and then they gently roll off the fingers.

See by describing it that way one does not have to think about releasing the thumb. The only thing necessary is a consistent grip and the dice will release themselves naturally from the forward energy generated by the swing. I believe this accomplishes exactly what you describe when you say,

you should not think of releasing the dice

and

stop thinking so much and just throw those dice

.

The reason being that you are not actually releasing the dice, the dice are releasing themselves!

And thanks for getting me to change my opinion about what word to use. IMHO, the word release is the correct word. 😮

Thoughts?

When I am throwing I do not think about the release. I check my grip every throw and if I am in a zone the target is my next thought. The release just comes naturally.
I believe that if you think too much about release it breeds a problem. As someone has said here "trust your throw". Give in to the moment.

OMC

I do appreciate all of the responses that the use of the word release has generated. It has, once again, given me another couple of little nuggets in the struggle for a better toss. To assume that anyone of us has a corner on all of the insights is the journey of a fool. This will always keep me humble and questioning. Thanks guys.

If I order a pizza for delivery and tell the driver to step on it.
A, will he get it there quickly?
b, Will he step on the pizza with his foot so I now have a cheesy mess with dirt for texture?

Lousy assemblage.

He will likely step on the gas pedal a bit faster, deeper and maybe harder than otherwise… If you offered him enough or were previously a big tipper.

If not, he will probably ignore the comment.

🙂

JJJ

Sorry, been away.

After all that and a few long throwing sessions Dom, of course, has it. "Release" is indeed the word that fits.

However, the talk involving "thinking of… release" is the issue. As Dom noted, you do not "release" the dice in the sense of an action. The word is not a verb in this usage — see below.

In this case the word "release" is not the verb form. It is the noun. The definition applicable (silly not to have looked this one up first — I can hear Tommy C laughing at me all the way down in Shreveport – sorry I could not make it. Miss everyone.) From merriam-webster.com "Release" the act of allowing something to escape

So, the grip is so loose that when the arm swings (Hi Skinny) and, hopefully, the angle is correct, the dice release or escape from the grip.

Now back to the original, from Doughboy, "Now what I detected in my release using the three finger grip was that my index finger wants to point on the release."

So everyone, me included, maybe me especially, missed that the issue is not the "release" but the change of the grip before the dice have already released. Notice it is the dice that release not, we release the dice.

If you watch the video from the GTC site in slow motion, (yes, the throws are shown in slow motion and you can slow them more or all if you have the software) Anyway, if you watch them in slow motion, you will note that the grips of the throwers on the video (starting with Stickman at 30:08) do not change until AFTER the dice have released. The instructions are, "hold them gently and let the forward momentum take the dice from your grip."

THAT was what I got and led to my big wins. I had lost it. Glad this conversation occurred — I now have it back. Grip stays the same dice "release" from that grip.

This makes Dom’s point even more accurate. It also makes the point that I and others had a misunderstood word in "release." It is not a verb. It is not a release — as in an action. It is the release — a noun — the point in time when the vector (which is both, force and direction) is just right so the dice escape the STILL IN SAME POSITION grip.

Which is funny because that is what I concentrated on before and during the Vegas trip in June. A consistent winner there until the last day when, like the silly guy I sometimes am, I assumed it was working well on automatic and I stopped doing the things I need to do to have the dice come out of my grip (release) correctly — the main thing of which for me was and still is,

I cannot put it on automatic because it does not stay that way. I have to concentrate on keeping that grip the same all the time — at least for me, for now. That is the thing to practice. Of course, I can hear Finesse laughing ruefully because that is the point he tried to make and that I was a bit too thick to get at the time. Thanks.

KEEPING THE DAMN GRIP THE SAME UNTIL AFTER THE DICE ARE GONE. Golfers baseball hitters and pitchers as well as tennis and table tennis and every other good athletes recognize this because to create a consistent shot or action — which is the key to success in all those areas, the components of what must be the same until after the ball is gone is the same basic principle.

So, what Dom says, and Mr. Finesse has reiterated more times than should be necessary except to people who have a basic misunderstanding is, practice that grip to get it right. Then, keep the grip that way until well after the dice are released (gone).

If you need a different angle at the release tilt your front shoulder down or up

Here is the point over thinking the shot is bad.

Trust is good.

Muscle memory is the best so learn good habits in the beginning, so you do not have to go back and change them.

The best hitters in baseball have a pure swing nothing complicated, as Kevin Costner says in bull Durham get out of your head meat.

They teach you to stay home and practice for 6 months to a year why, muscle memory so you do not have to think at the table.

Thinking at the table is tuff it causes doubt, doubt causes 7s.

Trust is something created over time at the practice table.

Good luck this is a great thing when it is working.

as·sem·blage
/əˈsemblij/
noun
noun: assemblage; plural noun: assemblage
a collection or gathering of things or people.
"a wondrous assemblage of noble knights, cruel temptresses, and impossible loves"
synonyms: collection, accumulation, conglomeration, gathering, group, grouping, cluster, aggregation, mass, number; More
assortment, selection, array, miscellany
"an assemblage of protestors"
•a machine or object made of pieces fitted together.
some vast assemblage of gears and cogs
a work of art made by grouping found or unrelated objects

Assemblage- your point?

That is the point this is so over thought what is the point. Mike trout has never complicated hitting like this never LMAO

This is the most entertaining post I have ever read

You must lead a dull life.

OMC

The little saying I used about the pizza guy was used in the seventies to show how English was the most difficult language to learn do to slang because it had so many ways to be interpreted that is the throw many ways to be done.

We are all not built for the perfect cookie cutter throw like doc, stick,and dice pilot, the rest of us have to adapt a little.

When I say I find it entertaining that means I appreciate it.

I remember one of the biggest complaints from newbies was that each instructor had something different to say, very few of them looked at it like wow I got all these different answers what one works best for me, that is this thread someone out there looking for what works best for them but all the answers here are funny yes very funny.

You really think Mike and every other player at that level has not worked through this type of process at some time in his career too get where he is?

Your think players at that level are just lucky our working in natural talent?

Ha!

Love ya

In different ways, from the many interesting replies to this post, I gather that:

A word spawns a thousand pictures.
We each get a different image from a word unless the word word is defined.
Recall the saying that a picture is worth a thousand words, or someting like that.

Each one of us must internalize, visualize and execute their own unique grip and throw as
a single integrated and fluid process and not as separate factors.

The thumb does not actively ‘release’ the dice but it allows the dice to escape the grip.

The forward accelerating swing with its rotational centrigugal force in your upswing
to achieve the 45 degree arc will allow the dice to fly away with rotations toward the target,
with their center of mass below the finger tips which are acting as a fulcrum for the ratation.

An interesting and very useful topic this is.
At the heart of the GTC throw.

Because of my hand issues at birth, I WILL NEVER ever ever be able to get the "correct" GTC grip — it’s physically impossible for me.

Therefore, I’ve had to work around the issues, find what works best for me "grip-wise" — and, through perseverance and my competitiveness, I did what I can do and have achieved some level of success

But, wow, it’s a real journey, without a doubt