Well, I always thought the dealers at this property were kind of surly anyway. This sure won’t help their mood any!

I am trying to think of a reason why this casino would want to go backwards to just double odds and I just can’t come up with any common sense reason why they would. Maybe it is just another case of bean counters in control! 😉

Probably Steve Wynn simply wanting to make more money by lowering the odds and making the game less player friendly. One can go all over the Vegas valley and find 5, 10 and even 20 times odds.

The sad part is that most players don’t understand the difference in the math between double of 3/4/5 times odds. Just like 6/5 blackjack a terrible game but most gamblers don’t realize the difference in the math. The commit I hear so often from players–most having consumed too much alcohol–is something like "what difference does it make, you hardly ever get a natural anyway." Still they flock to the 6/5 tables. As BTK says "it’s the moron factor."

Just my $.02 worth.

Doc

The rumor goes that Wynn was hit for over $300,000 and this was the reason. If this were the case that would mean that the people in charge are among the dumbest casino management anywhere.

Like I said this is what I have heard and until I hear it from someone that I know and trust I will take it with a grain of salt. If a big hand or a hot table that lost 300K was the reason how much difference would a 2X odds game have made? Since most players make place and buy bets my guess is not much.

I recall playing a hand years ago tossed by our long time friend and instructor Tenor at the Gold Coast when they had 2x odds. He made lots of points, perhaps in the teens. I had black chip line bets on those points toward the end of the hand and can’t remember a hand since that my line bets have been that high. When I play a 2x game I usually double my line bet after 2-3 wins and then keep doubling it every other win until the hand is over. I don’t do that in higher odds games since the variance of those higher odds games are so much higher. I progress slower, and I assume that many players do also.

The edge on line bets woks on the flat bet not the odds so the expected loss will not change unless players raise their line bets to get more action down. I don’t think that this will happen. Vegas is no longer a gambling town as it once was so most players don’t care about how much action that they have. It is a vacation town with high end restaurants and other attractions. Most Vegas visitors are not gamblers, they come for the experience not the gambling which for most people can be done within an hours drive of their home now. The average visitor will simply make their usual line bet with lower odds which will only affect the variance not the dollar win/loss.

Here’s why it may even be very bad for the casino.

#1. Casinos started offering 3x4x5x odds because the payoffs all pay the same amount which promotes game speed. More decisions per hour is how the casinos make more money. More decisions per hour breaks players faster. I think that most players will still play the table minimum line bets with the 2x odds which will of course increase the overall edge against them but it will also decrease the variance too so it will probably take longer to break the average player since their average bet will be lower. In truth casinos sell variance to the gamblers by offering gambling games and in this business variance is the casinos best friend since their bankroll is much larger that the players bank. It seems to me that the bean counters don’t understand why higher variance is good for them. This move decreases the player variance AND the hands per hour which is bad for them.

#2. Dealer mistakes. The dealers now have to calculate every payoff in their head which they didn’t do before. With 3x4x5x odds they just paid the players $70 when a line bet with max odds hit. They will make mistakes which will cost them money. How you ask? Mistakes decrease game speed. When the dice are in the middle the casino makes no money. The players may not "notice" being over paid but will certainly notice being underpaid. I have never noticed being over paid. Game stops, the dice don’t move, and the casino loses that opportunity to make money. Just like a hotel room, once that time period expires, and room goes un-rented, when dice don’t roll for 5 minutes, that opportunity is lost never to be recovered. Dice not rolled is like hotel rooms not rented. Win or lose the casino makes money every roll since the edge always works against the player on every roll.

#3. Customer dissatisfaction. Players know that higher odds reduces edge. They will see it as the casino chiseling, which it is. Gamblers hate anything that disturbs the action. How many players turn their bets off when the dice go off of the table, or there is a stick change or there is an argument. The players will react to this change by either playing elsewhere or superstitiously turning their bets off any disagreement over a payoff not being correct. I believe that there will also be dealer dissatisfaction, which can lead to more payoff errors and poor customer service. Snooty dealers being pissed off is a bad combination.

I can’t see how this change could possibly be good for the casino in any way. We will see how long it lasts.

BTK,

Might I say that I am really happy that you are finding the time to post now! You have a wealth of information to share and I am just happy to receive some of that knowledge. Just sign me grasshopper! LOL! :ugeek: 😀

BTK, we have one of our West Coast guys going next week, we’ll check it out.

My opinion as to the lowering of the odds; I think this is done because Steve Wynn has lost his gamble and no longer needs to gamble. He has made his billions and is now a corporate guy who no longer is worried about his personal wealth but rather worried about beating Sheldon Adelson and the Venetian.

By lowering the odds from 3x4x5 to double he is decreasing his own variance, after all the odds bet is free bet to the player. At this point Wynn is making so much more money from Night clubs, drink service, food sales and baccarat in Macau that he can care less about giving a good game in vegas. As a reference, the article about Steve Syr in the Latest Casino Page http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10028 shows how much casino revenue and its importance has dropped.

On the other hand, I have never heard of Wynn sweating the money. A $300K loss is an a one shift swing, it’s nothing on those tables where guys play yellow chips on quarter tables. It’s very weird.

I’ll second Pit Boss’ point about how these establishments make money these days; the data he cites bare that out. For at least those casinos on the strip, it’s not a gambling business anymore; it’s an "entertainment" business. The clientele they are catering to is expecting to lose whatever they bring with them; the suits think they are just accelerating the time line. That type of logic is static analysis; just goose up the vig, it’s straight line up on profits from there.

Who cares if someone that understands basic math might not play; no sense in wasting valuable table space on someone trying to load up odds on a number anyway. And who gives a damn about the attitude of the dealers; there’s a waiting list dealers that can’t get steady assignments due to the decline in table games on the floor.

BTK’s point about idle time costing the casinos money, trying to figure out the math on every combination of odds, is dead on. And, as has been pointed out on this board for eons, so does idle time chasing dice that fly off the table.

There used to be people in the business that understood these undeniable truths, and the importance of welcoming the gambler’s action. I miss Jack Binion.

I miss jack as well!

Let us know PB

Dominator

Just called the Casino manager at the Wynn; he did in fact verify that they have gone to double odds on their "main floor casino" but are still at 3x4x5 times at their high limit VIP room. I have a call into their PR dept as the reason and why they did that. The person at the pr department could not answer me at the time I called. They said someone will call back.

You are the man PB!

Dom

I am tall and I consider the tables at the Encore to be unplayable. They can make the odds whatever they want. It is so player unfriendly.