The simple answer is do not count horn numbers even in crapless craps. Play the five count as if it were a regular craps game and only count the standard six box numbers as box numbers.

The reason for this is very simple. The purpose of the five count is to give you a technique that helps you avoid betting on random shooters. Any bet on a random shooter is a losing bet. The house has an advantage on those bets and you will end up losing money on all the money you bet on random shooters over the life of your craps playing career.

The five count as designed for a regular craps game will eliminate 57% of the random shooters. Thus it will enable you to save 57% of the money you would have bet if you bet on every single random roller. But if you count horn numbers as box numbers you will be betting on more random shooters because you will eliminate a much smaller percentage of random rollers.

Dr. Don Catlin did a computer simulation of 200 million random shooters. One player bet on every random shooter and another player employed the five count before placing his bets. In the end, the player using the five count wagered 43% of the amount wagered by the bet-all player. The five count player also lost 43% of the amount lost by the bet-all player. Both players lost because they were betting on random shooters. We would not expect the five count to show a positive expectation against strictly random rollers; after all, no betting system can change a negative into a positive. But the five count player lost 57% less money.

For more information on the five count you may be interested in some of the articles I wrote on that subject. click on the following links to read those articles:

The 5-Count Changes the Odds of the Game!

Part One: The law of large numbers

Part Two: The 5-count is not a charting method!

Part Three: Bringing it All Together

If you Think the 5-Count is Too Complicated…

Skinny,

Thanks for the articles and the input, but I’ve been using the 5 count since I read "Beat the Craps out of the Casinos" in the ’90s.

Rich in Mich

Good for you Rich. You asked a good question. I answered it in such a way that others who are less experienced than you might learn something from the answers.

Skinny on other players is there a point were you say to yourself that you are going to pass on this roller ? Say it is past 12 rolls before the 5 count comes into affect .
I get a little nerves when they throw a lot of crap numbers .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

There is nothing that requires you to make a bet after the five count has been met.

The best bet on a Chicken Feeder is always no bet.

Noah

Finisher,

I agree with Noah. I seldom want to make a bet on any random roller regardless of the count. Unless I have seen the player before and know they take care when they throw. There are a few RR’s that I have seen try to be consistent with what they do and sometimes have decent rolls.

Those players I may do a come bet or two after they complete the five count. But most others I will pass on completely no matter whether they pass the five count or not.

"Finisher" wrote: Skinny on other players is there a point were you say to yourself that you are going to pass on this roller ? Say it is past 12 rolls before the 5 count comes into affect .
I get a little nerves when they throw a lot of crap numbers .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Any reason to NOT BET on a random roller is a good enough reason for me! Remember in the long run you will lose on a random roller even with the 5-count.

On the crapsless craps game, if those horn numbers come in the middle of the 5-count, count them …. if the shooter establishes his point as a horn number, the count is still 0. So on a come out roll the shooter establishes a point of 12, that is still a count that hasn’t started … example… first roll a 12 (his point) … no count …. 2nd roll an 11 …. no count …. third roll a 6 ….. the count is 1.

Dom