Glad you both got lucky, or do you think it was more than that?

Noah

Eagle Eye,

Rolling consistent 38 hands in practice is truly remarkable. Quite a feat… Kudos to you!

I think ACPA’s question is spot on. Do you think the "secret" end of the table shot success was from influence and is repeatable? Or more from good ol’ luck?

If you think it has merit, perhaps you’d be kind enough to share the "secret" with us. I would love to learn more about it.

Again, kudos on the consistent 38’s!

😎 😎 😎

Brings back memories of the guy that had an SRR OF 24 . Who is no longer on this site .
Cll posted one time the % for rolls . Like 10 -20 30 40 50 etc. I should copy some of the stuff that is posted for later but am LAZY .
WHERE IS HE WHEN YOU NEED HIM .
You are doing good if you are in the consent 30s I would love to be able to do that .
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

Here are the probabilities of a random roller getting to 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 rolls.

[pre]Rolls Probability

10 27.6%

20 6.3%

30 1.4%

40 0.3%

50 0.07%[/pre]

Well I got to say this using the old expression ….. even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then ….

There isn’t a secret to beating the game of craps:
1. learn the throw
2. Calculate your edge
3. Beat into your edge

Everything that GTC teaches is based in math and science. We deal with keeping the dice on axis, releasing energy from the dice as you throw them and the six freedoms of movement that any moving projectile goes through in the air. We try to reduce or eliminate three of them to give us the edge.

Throwing from the end puts more energy on the dice … a bad thing …. throwing into the hook will throw the dice off axis … another bad thing ….

I don’t mean to pick on this post, but the posting does go to the heart of what so many craps players think. The table was "cold" and all the darksiders were winning. There aren’t any trends on a table, period, end of story. Now I am not saying that if you just don’t like the feel of the table, "the movie test" leave. I say this to card counters as well. The math of the game says that you are playing with an edge and so even though the dealer is getting the 21’s or pulling to a 20 when you are sitting with a 19 and losing, you are playing with an edge and because of that there is no reason to leave. BUT, sometimes you just should leave and call it a day.

Two days ago, I had a person call who had bought our book and wanted a little information. The conversation got to biased dice and how in a session he didn’t see an 8 thrown. I said to him that the casino would be a fool to lose their gaming license by bringing biased dice on the table. I then asked him a question …. "Is the a POSSIBILITY that if you flip a coin 100X’s could it lands on heads those 100X’s. His answer was NO. I explained that I said possibility not probability , but he just wouldn’t listen to the math of a flip of the coin or the throw of the dice. I gave up!

So i just said to myself … you can lead a horse to water, but not make the horse drink!

Dominator

I’m sorry but I am not buying into trends, throwing from the horn, darkside trend bets, consistent high number throws, etc. I think that there was something good happening, and it is something to behold, but I would be surprised if it is consistent over time at that level at an actual game.

Consistent 38’s and I quit my day job for full time craps. Seen too much, been around too long . When it comes to craps, I am from the great state of Missouri: The Show Me State. EE, let us know the trick to the recent win. I would like to try it and I am sure some others would also. Please share it here so we can analyze it.

Second, there is a great difference between practice play and actual game play. When I was growing up, I knew guys that were great practice players. They made everyone on the team better. But they were not game day players. On game day they did not start. They came in to spell the game day players. So, I am happy, but skeptical,that consistent 38’s at practice will turn into consistent 38’s at the real game: Its "possible" but not "probable" and if it is happening then the trick is to do it at the actual game, with game pressures, money on the line, and the scrutiny of the casino.

GTC has always been about the math of the game, the throw, the betting. This is not something that came about through chance. The GTC method came about and developed over many many years multiplied by many many players, multiplied by many many throws, and a gazillion outcomes of the dice. Nothing out there can compare with the statistical analysis done and utilized by GTC. I know. I have seen many many people play this game and go bust time and time again.
I don’t want to be one of them.

At my last outing, I made a few thousand using the GTC method. I trusted the throw, I knew my edge, and I bet into my edge. There was a guy at the table who bought in for a few thousand. Bet like crazy and won 25g on my roll. He had $500 hardways, and big pass line bets. I happened to throw 4 hardways (I had no bets on them because often I throw the number without a hardway, but on this day, at this time, it was different. All of a sudden the throw was very very good and the hardways came). I colored up after my throw and was content with the win. An hour later, I went by the table to see what the big roller was doing to find he was gone. The dealers told me he went bust. What a shame. He squandered a gift. So who was better, smarter. The guy who won 25g and lost 28g. or the guy who bought in at 300 and walked away with a few grand. It was sobering to be reminded that craps is a brutal game at times. And to be reminded that it is better to take what you earn and leave.

"Eagle Eye" wrote: I have been hitting 38 numbers pretty consistently at practice. Having trouble getting pass that 40 number. Maybe I need more help with my throw/toss. Saving for Vegas Class.

I had a little fun yesterday at a casino. The table was bad and the darkside was winning big. Someone I knew was receiving the dice at the table and he shoots from in the hook position. I didn’t shoot the dice yet. I was just watching him shoot and his manner in which he shot. He did something so simply and it made him a winner at the table when everyone else was sevening out within 7 tosses of the dice. Horn numbers and sevens. Sevens and horns. Well, I asked him what he was doing to give him so many numbers and no one else at the table could hit a point number. He told me and now I know. He rolled those dice for 20 minutes. I was next to him at the table and the dice came to me. Well, I was thinking about not shooting because I wasn’t in my comfort level in distance. But, I had 3 drinks in me and I said what the hell. I did the same thing he did with the dice and what do you know. I rolled number after number for a good 25 minutes. Nobody else at the table could get past 1 point. My friend make me money and I in return made him money. I now know how to beat these guys at their own game when the darkside shows.

There are many things that disturb me in this post. I have highlighted a few of them.

Dom has already said what needs to be said and he did it quite eloquently. But I want to reinforce some of what he said for a few reasons. I have read all your posts Eagle Eye and liked what I saw in many of them. You recently took your first class and it sounds like you are doing well on your journey to advantage play. I am interested in you doing well and want to see you be successful. I also do not want others to be misled by some of the things you wrote that I consider to be very dangerous thinking.

he shoots from in the hook position

One can not be more successful throwing from the hook than from SL1 or SR1. It defies the laws of physics. You must throw the dice with greater velocity to reach the end of the table from the hook than you do from SL1 or SR1. That will cause the dice to land with more energy and they will be harder to control. I don’t care how he sets the dice or tosses them from the hook. Your advantage from the hook is greatly diminished when throwing from the hook.

Horn numbers and sevens. Sevens and horns.

These bets have some of the highest house edges against the player on the craps table. I can say categorically, from years of experience teaching new students, you are not good enough at this stage of your development to overcome the tremendous house edges against you to win these wagers on a consistent basis. These bets should be avoided like the plague. There is no system or way of throwing that could be giving you an edge on these bets at this point in time.

I had 3 drinks in me and I said what the hell

You need all your wits and faculties at peak performance in order to bet properly and execute a controlled throw, a demanding physical endeavor. You prove my point about diminishing your judgement by your statement here. I do not think you should be drinking at all when you match your skills (note I did not say gamble) against a casino. But if you must drink, you need to be certain it is not to the point where it diminishes your judgement or physical skill in controlling the dice. There is plenty of time to drink after you finish a session at the tables. Sitting with friends over a drink or several is much more enjoyable with the casino’s money in your pocket after the session rather than licking your wounds after a poor session because you impacted your abilities and judgement by drinking at the table.

He rolled those dice for 20 minutes.

I rolled number after number for a good 25 minutes.

So what? These sound like rolls in the 15 to 25 range. Did you see my chart above?

Rolls of this length occur 3% to 13% of the time for a random roller. That means the odds of a random roller doing that has odds of between 7-1 and 32-1. It is not unusual for that to happen!

I now know how to beat these guys at their own game when the darkside shows.

This is very, very, very dangerous thinking. To attribute any certainty based on the results of a single session is bad enough. But to think there is a "method" or "system" of wagering that can predict how to bet when a table is in some "fictitious" state of being (hot, cold, choppy) is absurd and completely defies all science and math of random events. There is no way to predict the future for random events. The very word "random" should dispel any belief that one can predict the future of randomly thrown dice based on what occurred in the near or distant past.

One can only say with certainty, after the fact (ie. after the rolls are completed), that a table was hot, cold or choppy. One can never predict how future rolls will occur in a random game. It is not possible mathematically. So anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is either being disingenuous or foolish. Either advice would be a bad one to follow.

Remember what I said at the beginning. I am interested in you doing well and want to see you be successful. Stick with the science if you want to be a long term winner. The math tells you what bets to make and physics tells you how to throw the dice to get an advantage over the house edges against those bets.

Skinny Thanks for the % record. You do a great service for ALL of us.
One time I was at a casino and a large group came to table and threw from the hook. They almost took over the whole table. I was just getting the dice so there was no problem with a delay in game .I had a good roll and all went well.
Then the dice went fast to the other end of table. The guy next to me said that I should bet on the next 2 rollers . So I made a pass line bet which I usually never do and the roller rolled for some time and I made some money but I bet vary little on others .
The guy next to me tells me that they just are coming from Vegas were they made several $$$ from 4 casinos and are now hitting all down the river.
The next roller had one arm and He held the dice for a good 45 min and the bets were high and when he finished they ALL colored up and left . They did ask if I wanted to come with them. I thought it was nice of them to ask me .But I did not bet any were near what they had on the table. Also the wife would say NO.
EVEN THO i SAW AND UNDER STOOD WHAT THEY DID i KNOW THAT i WAS NOT THE ONE DOING IT . Just like any thing there are some that may be great at it and make it look easy at times.
The whole group bet a lot but only two threw the dice then they left. At the end were on my side there was no pass line bet or few if any. They placed the numbers and the hard ways no crap bets.
I was surprised at how quick they came in to the game and how quick they left. Even the dealers were saying did you just see what happened.
I hope I get a chance to see the one arm man roll again but you never know.
It can happen from the hook but I trust what you and the rest on this site say much more .
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

This thread reminds me of one of the times I wound up on a table that Dom and other GTC players were at.

There were 4 at SL/SR, a guy who had taken 3/4 classes next to one of the dealers at the far end.

I was at the spot next to the dealer at the other end.

I had played with the guy aAt the end numerous times in Tunica and he could be a decent shooter, but often went his own way in playing/betting.

He and his friend bought a full sized used table from Dom and before he took one of the classes I sent a private message to Dom describing the guys erratic playing/betting so that Dom com impress on the guy what to do correctly.

Well at this table in Vegas the guy threw from the end of the table, didn’t do too well either.

I passed the dice myself and even though the AP player didn’t put anything together and I lost a little, it didn’t upset me.

Don’t know what happened to the guy since I left Tunica but he had been losing money before I left and his partner that had bought the table together said the guy wasn’t playing much.

He was a great guy to know and I’m sure he could have been a good player, if he had paid attention to what Dom said.

Noah

God bless you Skinny. Looking forward to Vegas. Can’t wait to show you my beginners roll and have you critique it. Been practicing and avoiding anything that smells like what I call "Magical Thinking".
It’s not easy, being easy. Love the math and GTC. DoughBoy

To all who have read the Post Timmer/Dom. I want to clarify a few things. First, I practice for about 3 hours everyday. I shoot into a wooden box with felt and rubber diamond at the back. I have always shot the GTC way since my first class in April of this year. I have been consistently hitting approx.38’s in my practice for the last two practice sessions. So, I posted it. Now, maybe I’ve been lucky or maybe it’s my skill level improving. I am looking for further improvement. I have been lucky enough pay for my first class on my first trip to the casino. Since April, I’ve only lost once to the casino’s. I lost $100.00 once. I have been beating them out of $100.00 to $1300.00 each trip and I play small. Call it what you may

P.S. Shooting from the hook topic. The dice would come to me and then I would rub the top edges of the dice towards me until I saw the point number at the back of the dice. Then, simple toss them at the passline near the 6,8 even money numbers on the felt. Still using the GTC shot. I guess I was lucky Skinny. I have been receiving money from
everywhere and everyone lately, so I guess I have been getting lucky. I sometimes wear my Italian Horn to ward off the evil eye too. Skinny, where would one find some of this math for craps. Interested in knowing some of this stuff. Sincerely 🙄

"Eagle Eye" wrote: …I sometimes wear my Italian Horn to ward off the heal eye too.

Hahaha Eagle Eye! Too funny on the "heal eye" and wearing the Italian Horn…

You were a great Primer student and it seems you also realize that all who have commented to this post are here to help. Ours is a friendly group who always do their best to help. Don’t take it any other way than that!

I’m glad you’ve contributed with this post, Eagle Eye. It has already generated a lot of discussion and great wisdom offered from Dom, Skinny and others.

Keep us informed if your progress and keep paying it forward with more of your interesting posts. They are appreciated!

😎 😎 😎

😆 Old Eagle Eye Here Again. I Just went to the casino tonight and guess what? I hit all the point numbers again with the exception of the 4. Shot for the 4 and hit a 10 instead. I was thinking about quieting my day job but I don’t think my wife would be happy. 😆 A friend of mine had $500.00 on each number the whole time I was tossing the dice. He also had $500.00 pass-line odds the whole time. Nothing magical/Just Sweat. I shot from left stick/ first position/GTC way of course:lol: I was a loser at craps at one time but not any longer. The only way the casino will bet me now is if I have a bad day and beat myself. One thing I have learned is you can not be scared to win if you want to win. You must have total confidence in your abilities and let the chips fall where they may. Nothing is 100% certain but the manner in which you shoot is and will give you an advantage over the house. Everything I was taught is coming into play now and making a big difference in my shot. I have alot of people to thank and could never thank enough. Most Gracious

I just want to say ….well said Skinny!

Eagle Eye …. keep up the good work!

Dominator

This was a good discussion. I will write more often. But, leaving out anything about a hook position at the table. Eagle Eye 🙄

Eagle eye ONLY play the hook position at 16 FOOT tables that’s what it is all albout. 😀 😀 😀
Just kidding. Have you shoot from that position on a 16 footer. If you were in the air force you could give it a try. 😀 😀
It takes an eagle eye to see the dice after you roll them.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

"Eagle Eye" wrote: I sometimes wear my Italian Horn to ward off the evil eye too. Skinny, where would one find some of this math for craps. Interested in knowing some of this stuff. Sincerely 🙄

A paisano too and you would like to know about the math of craps. This is what heaven must be like. It does not get better than this 😀 😀

The book, Casino Craps, Shoot to Win has a lot of the craps math in it. I reviewed all the math in that book for Frank and as I recall it was pretty thorough in covering a wide range of topics. Chapter 1 gives several charts and discussions regarding the house edges for different odds bets in craps. Chapter 2 covers how you can push the house to lower the house edge on buy, lay and odds bets. The best bets are explained in Chapter 3, while the bad bets are in Chapter 4. Chapters 17 thru 20 go over more of the math of craps.

The wizard of odds has a lot of charts that give the math for craps on his website. But he just covers the basic wagers that are on the tables. He does not go into how you can get an extra edge over the casino as Frank does in his book.

I am not too sure what you may be looking for with your question. Why don’t you go over the sections in Frank’s book and let me know if there is anything you are not sure about or want more information about. If you have something more specific in mind that may not be covered in what I have given you ask the question on the website. I will do my best to answer anything you want to know.

stata buon e buona fortuna

Here is a bit more on the math of craps that will be helpful to those who have an ability with numbers. It is the last article in the wisdom section of this forum. It was copied from the old message board. Some of the code from the old board which used HTML did not translate to the code of the new board which uses BBCode. That is why you see a few things that look like hieroglyphics in the post.

How can you tell if you are influencing the dice or not?

Taking notes and reading more.

"Eagle Eye" wrote: Taking notes and reading more.

By doing so you are destined for success!

Keep us posted…

😎 😎 😎

I call B.S. to the poster.

Timmer, I thought you said this was a friendly group. Boy was I mislead. ❗ 😆 😀 😆

I don’t have great days all the time. Some days I do poorly and leave. I am going to stay away from the casino’s for now and just read, practice tuning out people/meditation, learn to call out bet increases, etc.

Some people are born loser’s and some are born winners. I have been a winner at just about everything I done in my life. I have had to earn everything in life myself. Nobody gave me anything. I grew up poor even though my grandfather was a millionaire.

When younger, I use to shoot archery. I was not very good at first, but later I was taught what to do and how to do it. You may not believe what I am about to say. I was instructed by an older man on how to shoot and what equipment I should be using to shoot. Even down to the size arrows with explanation on why. I practiced for a few months on everything he said. I used a PSE bow/40-45lbs, 4 power scope, and release. I could put one arrow into another arrow anytime and anyplace at 20 yards. I would shoot in tournaments when I was younger. I beat the state champion one time in points but it didn’t count because we were in different classes and I was just a young kid. I was taught by one of the best archers around. Mr. Kenny. Nobody could beat this guy with a bow and arrow. He could shoot perfect 300 almost every time. I learned by slowing your heart rate down and slowly exhailing on the release one could have an almost perfect shot along with proper stance.

I started two businesses on my own with no help from anybody. I studied very hard to pass two state test and receive my licenses. I passed one test on first try and the other on the second try. Life has not given me roses. I work hard at everything I do because I know that there will be no joy without it. Sacrifice.

This site is much more friendly then years before. I think it is getting better all the time . But that’s just my .01 worth.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

Finisher, how are things going for you. I was just messing with Timmer.

Being friendly and welcoming to posters this site is, however, there are folks that are going to throw the BS flag when they think there have been to many chunks of it flying to ignore. From time to time we have seen recent grads and non-grads who have make remarkable claims. Most here know just how difficult being one of Dom’s 10% really is. Claims of repeated big wins time and again hours after taking the class or reading the book, day after day, are tiresome. And some really aren’t impressed by unsubstantiated claims, however, being politically correct and responding in astonished, supportive tones seems to be the norm.

As followers meet you at the tables and report on your prowess with the cubes doubt will recede. Until then there are going to be those that throw the BS flag. Most will not do it on the board though, they’ll turn from the monitor and tell the dog or cat instead.

Yes and point well taken. I will show the doubters in a casino one day if things progress well for me. You know I talk alot because I have had people in the past put $200.00 on a hard six and $200.00 hard eight and I then I hit them over and over again. $1,800.00 a pop. I told this older man one day to parlay his $1,800.00 hit on the hard six. He didn’t and I hit it again. I bet he will think about that for many years. He would have won $16,200.00 on one roll of the dice. I am not always lucky or so skillfull. Whatever you want to call it. I know when to leave, and if I am doing good I stay.

Eagle Eye Thanks for the thought .I wish to have 2 30 roll hands in the casino coming up so may be able to see my Grad child first birth day. I will be going to see her in Aug. It is a 20 hr. flight with a 3 hr. drive after getting to Moscow.
I think that I need to practice a little more before I go to the casino tho.
Just hate it when I throw those good 7s 5-2 3-4 . 😀 😀
I had a cousin come over and explained how to bet and he went to a casino after he got home and did not roll the dice but won more then he ever did before and had to call and thank me for the advise. I guess I should follow my own advise which seldom do . 😀 😀
Keep posting . 😀 😀
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

Wow, that’s a long flight. I don’t know if I would be able to fly that long but understandably so. I hope you’re able to get those (2) 30 or above rolls. I have confidence that you will do well. Don’t try to hard. Like Skinny said, do what you have been taught and TRUST the outcome. Don’t toss them to hard. Just enough energy to get there and when they fall and die you’ll be happy. Mr. Finesse said, work on the grip it is so important. Doc said, practice hitting a spot over and over. Slow and smooth motion/ make sure dice are level when you are going back with them per Mr. Finesse and Doc. Dom said, when you go back with the dice/ don’t go back to much. Timmer said, take notes of what you are doing so when you are doing it/ you know how to do it again. I am not good enough to give advice but I will tell you what other more advanced players say. You see for me it is my shoulders/ If my shoulders are not square I don’t last long when shooting the dice. I hope everything goes well for your family and you. Sincerely

[quote="Eagle Eye"]Timmer, I thought you said this was a friendly group. Boy was I mislead. ❗ 😆 😀 😆

Not sure what you meant by this line Eagle Eye. I know that everyone here is friendly and only wants for everyone to get better

Dominator

Dom, just messing with Timmer. I have learned a great deal by posting to this sight. It has helped me in my development in many ways. Dom, I know that you want us all to follow what has been taught and be successful at a game you obviously love. I will be working hard to develop as an advantage player. I obviously have a great deal more to learn then I initially thought but I am still new and very impressionable. With that being said, I would hope that you still feed me information that may improve my game and make my shot better. Hoping to see you in Vegas/or Tunica next year to do a refresher and video analysis of my shot.

Happy Fathers Day To Timmer,Dom,Skinny, Chuckman,Noah,ACPA,Finisher,Doc,Mr.Finnese,Marksman,Bill The Kid,No Field Five,KirkM,TommyC,Doughboy,StephenC,Stickman, and all the fathers out there and wishing you all the best. Enjoy Your Day In Doing Something Special For Yourself. 😮

Timmer/ Doc, I followed your advice about shooting into a cup or Tupperware container with cushion at the bottom. I have not been nerves about throwing short anymore. I shoot about 10 sets of dice repeatedly into the cup for practice. My shot has improved and I hit the spot that I need to hit more consistently. Thanks to Skinny as well. Skinny, I used Doc’s practice routine and you pointed out #1 of the routine. It works. I think Doc got it from Timmer. I have been reading and studying more on some of the things you pointed out to me. My betting is getting better too. I corrected a dealer the other day on my press bet where he made a mistake and tried to get more money out of me for the press. He apologized for his mistake. Skinny, Casino personnel have been putting the stick infront on me and clapping for no reason and doing different things while I’m shooting. Usually after I hit 3 or 4 point numbers. I am working on that toning out thing but I find it’s a visual thing too. I had one stickman jumping up on his toes over and over again and he was in my peripheral vision and I sevened out.

Please be more specific when you state that the Dealer was trying to get more money from you for a Press. What were the circumstances and what were your words to him when asking for a press.

As for the apparent heat from the Stick. Were you tipping and bringing the Crew into the game along with you or were you simply playing as most do forgetting that the crew likes to be winners as well. Seldom do we get heat from crew members when tipping on a longer hand, not saying it doesn’t happen. But the instances where heat is brought are more from the Box than Crew when tipping.

Did little experiment the last time we Denver guys got together to practice. While we were throwing with chips and betting as we would in the Casinos, I placed an extra buck on my Pass bet. While counting out at the end of the session I alone would have contributed 20+ dollars to the toke box over two or so hours. Not much, but if all three of us are contributing at the same rate that makes them fairly friendly to our cause as it helps theirs too.

I am not so ready to accept that the crew was trying to give you heat. In the beginning (and sometimes even after a long time) of becoming a controlled shooter most folks think that all eyes are upon them and get paranoid about common occurrences they attribute to the casino going after them.

Dealers are doing a repetitive job 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. They are human beings who get bored (especially after a number of years) and try to find ways to keep from getting bored or tired. A stickman rocking up and down on his toes sounds very natural to me. Something that a dealer might do out of habit, to keep awake or to keep his feet from falling asleep. The other actions you described could also be regular habits the dealers are performing. Don’t be paranoid and think they are all out to distract you because that is not the general rule. You can become your worst enemy under those circumstances.

If they truly are trying to give you heat it should be pretty obvious and in that case the best thing to do is to walk without any comment. Real heat can come from a specific individual dealer or pit crew member, a specific shift because the pit crew on that shift want it that way or an entire casino. The first case is the most common. Often you can go to another table and things will be fine. If it is the entire shift, then play at a different time with a completely different group of personnel. When the casino takes umbrage, you have to stay away.

But these are very rare exceptional situations and I do not want you to focus on the previous paragraph. Pay more attention to the one before it because that is the most common situation.

Be sure to tip as Stephen C states and be friendly to the crew. Try to engage them when you are not shooting with friendly banter. Most importantly be a good player. By that I mean, bet in turn, know what you want to do when it is your turn, be aware of what bets you have on the layout, understand where your bets are on the layout and be sure the dealer’s place them in the proper place after you make a bet with them. Know the order of the payouts so you know when it is your turn to receive a payout for your place, come and prop (which you should not be making) wagers. These things go a long way to having the dealers treat you with respect and paying a bit more attention to you as a player.

I once had a stickman waving his stick in the air a bit in a circular fashion. I knew he was not doing it to distract me. He was just doing it out of habit and probably did not even know he was doing it. Plus I recognized him as a fairly new dealer. He had experience but had not been dealing a long time. I had been playing at the table for a bit and this was a casino where I was known to most of the crew. I noticed the stickman doing this when I was on my come out roll. Then on the next roll I saw that he was still doing it. So I put the dice down and started looking up in the air above his head. I was looking around from side to side. Since it was my turn to shoot, he asked what I was looking at. I said, I was trying to find the fly he was trying to swat. The other dealers and boxman all cracked up and started laughing at him. He had a confused look on his face and had no idea what I was talking about. Finally the boxman said, "You are waving the stick in the air in front of his face". The guy’s face turned red, he was so embarrassed. He did not even realize what he was doing. We all had a good laugh and the guy backed away giving me plenty of room to shoot with the stick down at his side from then on.

I could do this because I was known as a good tipper, a good solid player who was friendly and polite to the crew. It is best to deflect problem situations with humor. In the case of the guy going up and down on his toes, I might have mimicked him and asked if this was a new dance and what was it called? But you need the other things I mentioned (tip, good player, friendly) to get away with this for it to work.

I find it hard to accept that casino personnel are going out of their way to distract you. I think this is more in your head and you are not yet able to block out some of the regular distractions that can occur at the table. Try to focus harder on your target. Look at the area where you want the dice to land. Concentrate on that area and let your throw go to the target. See the dice in the air. Are they rotating together, side by side? Watch them land on the table. Did they land on the target? Did they land together and bounce straight back to the back wall, then die close to the wall after they rebound off the wall? These are the things you need to be able to focus on entirely with complete concentration. Basketball players make free throws with fans waving objects and shouting trying to distract them. They focus on the basket and the mechanics of their toss blocking out all other distractions. You won’t be perfect, but by striving for perfection, you will improve over time.

I know there are a lot of distractions at the table so I have taught myself to be able to carry on a conversation with the crew even when I am shooting. This is not recommended by GTC and there are not a lot of people who can do this. I am only saying what I have done because I have found it helpful for me. It makes me seem like more of a regular player and it avoids all the silence that can be "deafening". I find the silence causes everyone to focus more on me because I have the dice and they can not do anything else. The silence makes me more self conscious so by talking I deflect a lot of that attention. I don’t do it all the time, it depends on the circumstances. But I have no problem talking when the dice are in the center of the table or while I am setting and gripping the dice. But once I pick them up and focus on my target I am all business, completely silent and focused. I block everything out other than the target. That is my trigger to "clear the mechanism" (If you have seen Kevin Costner in For Love of the Game). I look intently at what I am trying to hit and keep the image of the dice landing on my area in my mind. Then I trust my throw and watch what happens. Based on how the dice react in the air or seeing how they land, I may make slight adjustments. But usually, I just try to repeat what I did on the next toss.

Let me know if this helps.

I will let you know if it helps, Skinny. My wife was behind me watching me toss the dice and she even said she couldn’t believe what the stickman was doing. He was sticking his head in middle of the table while I had the dice in my hand and getting ready to throw them. Another one at stick was going up and down on his toes because I was going up on my toes to get over the table better. He was laughing the whole time because of what I was doing. I never really had to much trouble in the past. After I was finished shooting, my wife told me that those dealers were real idiots. She said, she saw what they were doing and they did not know she was watching.

No, I wasn’t tipping at that time. I usually do tip by putting a dollar on the pastline and a dollar in odds.

Stephen C, I was pressing my $18.00 six to a $42.00 six and dropping $2.00. I told the dealer, take me to $42.00 and then I dropped $2.00. The dealer told me to drop him $5.00 dollars. The plan was to take the first hit and then press to $42.00/drop$2.00. Then, go to $60.00 with $31.00 change. Then, go to $72.00/drop $2.00. Then, go to $90.00/with $61.00 change. Then, take the money on each hit.

You were coming up short.

$18 six pays $21.

$18 + $21 + $2 = $41.

Chuckman, you are correct. It’s $41.00. I was short $1.00. The dealer said he was wrong for trying to get $5.00 out me. He apologized after the boxman told him that I was right. Thanks for clearing it all up.

"Eagle Eye" wrote: I will let you know if it helps, Skinny. My wife was behind me watching me toss the dice and she even said she couldn’t believe what the stickman was doing. He was sticking his head in middle of the table while I had the dice in my hand and getting ready to throw them. Another one at stick was going up and down on his toes because I was going up on my toes to get over the table better. He was laughing the whole time because of what I was doing. I never really had to much trouble in the past. After I was finished shooting, my wife told me that those dealers were real idiots. She said, she saw what they were doing and they did not know she was watching.

No, I wasn’t tipping at that time. I usually do tip by putting a dollar on the pastline and a dollar in odds.

Your wife is right. Those guys were idiots. Unfortunately you will run across them from time to time. Tipping might have made a difference, it usually does. If it is a place you play at often, you want to tip on a regular basis so they get to think of you as a "George".

If you were tipping and they treat you like this all you can do is walk away. These guys sound like wise guys who are unprofessional. If the management lets them get away with this you don’t want to play there.

I didn’t read every post in this thread, so I apologize if this question has been asked: I heard rumors some time back that GTC was experimenting with releasing a reliable throw from the end of the table. I have actually rolled from the end of the table a few times while blocking and messing around. It is a long throw, but you can get in the center of the layout with no difficulty and you can line up real nicely. The throw feels like a SR throw for a right hander in that you can’t get much of a backswing.

Just curious about whether or not GTC had toyed with the idea of an end of table shot. The physics does seem to be an insurmountable issue, however, but if you can lean in, you might actually be releasing somewhere near the #2 position along the rail.

And…my two cents worth after reading this thread: Craps and fishing. Those of you bothering to read this can finish the rest of the idea by chewing on those two sports a while. I trust my throw…period. I will also trust yours after I’ve actually seen you play and roll a nice hand and comport yourself in all the other ways a true GTC trained player will demonstrate. Some shooters, of course, have trustworthy shots by well known reputation, and that is a different story.

Keep On Rollin’

Alamo

PS….I roll 80+ hands consistently in practice! 😆

No Alamo, I think that long shot was just luck. I have made a few thousand dollars from playing since April’s class. I bought a pool for my girls. Payed for the class. Bought a craps shooting station. Gave my oldest girl $$$ for graduating pre-med deans list. All from money I won from the casino. My uncle told me if I want to win at a casino stay away. He should know he owned a casino on the old strip in Las Vegas.

My sincerest apologies. You seem to have led, and continue to lead, a very accomplished life…and me…I’m just a fool. I would probably never have a legitimate shot at shooting with someone who plays at your level, so I won’t look for that opportunity.

Alamo

No, sometimes I don’t shoot good at all. You must not be reading what I have been writing. Sometimes I do good and I was only giving you my .02 on your post. It sounds like you don’t want my opinion and that is ok with me.

Trust me Eagle Eye, your ideas and posts are most welcome on this board. I do hope you will continue to post any ideas you may have. Rest assured you may not always agree with some one, but what else is new. Alligator Rose and I don’t always agree whether it be on this board or other areas of our lives. . That is what is great about this board we welcome posts such as yours. I consider you as asset.

We hope to see you in the casinos soon.

Doc and Alligator Rose

Thank you Doc.

Eagle Eye…

Looks like you edited out the earlier part of the post where you referenced me as a ‘fool’. I"ll accept that edit. And, I never said I did not want anyone’s .02 worth. We all have a lot to learn. Peace my brother.

Alamo

I roll lots of point 7’s when I practice, I need to practice with you two. 😆

[quote="AlamoTx"]I didn’t read every post in this thread, so I apologize if this question has been asked: I heard rumors some time back that GTC was experimenting with releasing a reliable throw from the end of the table.

Yes, in the advanced class we teach an end shot. It is a shot that we developed that actually is released from position #2 on a table. You really get up on your toes and really reach out. it is not a shot that we tell people to practice unless they shoot with many GTC’ers and instead of just passing the dice which looks kind of weird, for someone to take the shot.

Dominator

I’m not sure I understand. You said position #2, but are you talking about a really long shot from SL or SR #2 or actually from the flat part of the end, past the mixing bowl?

This shot is indeed from the flat end of the table and as Dom mentioned, is taught as part of the Advanced class curriculum.

Also as Dom described, the "S2" release takes a lot of effort. It is meant to reduce axis and correlation decay as much as possible. BTK and NFF cover this in detail and also teach the unique grip and arm swing challenges of the "end" shot during the Advanced class.

Keep in mind that this shot is intended to be used mostly for camouflage, when S1 and S2 positions are already filled with skilled shooters.

To be clear, for those approaching a table where the preferred S1 and S2 positions are occupied by chicken feeders or by those you don’t know, attempting an end of the table shot in this situation is not the smart advantage play.

Waiting for your preferred S1 or S2 position, going elsewhere, or saving your bankroll for another day is the smart advantage play!

😎 😎 😎

Very good post Timmer. I glad I had you as my coach.