I’m new to dice control. I know I need to take a class. I’m planning to take a class soon, but I’ve read one of Frank and Dom’s books ( I’ve got 2 more on order) and I’ve been practicing for about 3 months now. I’ve always been able to pick up on athletic skills fairly quickly on my own, but I also know the value of having a pro breakdown your technique as well so I’m going to take a class. I hope I’ll be able to do it soon! However, with some practice under my belt and a little bit of confidence I went to the casino with slightly different expectations in how things would go at the craps table than how it did when I was a COMPLETELY RANDOM roller. In my practice sessions, it is not uncommon for me to have rolls in the 20s without a seven showing. Very consistently, I roll 12 to 15 times without a seven. I know that I have some level of control over the dice, but I know I can be better. Of course, I also know that the casino will be different from my practice, and that their tables will be different from my practice rig. They were, but I was able to adjust my throw to each table…..except for one where the dice behaved like magic. The problem was that the magic was on the wrong number. I don’t know why, but throwing the hardway set I rolled 7 after 7 after 7 on my come out roll at this one table. In fact, I rolled eleven or 12 7s or 11s in a row. My sevens were mostly double pitches. After finally making a point, I quickly sevened out and got away from that table. I don’t know if the table was a bad combination with my throw or if it was just something I was doing on my own, but regardless, that table got into my head and I had to get away from it. I probably should have gone back and started betting the wrong way on myself, but there’s something about seeing that many 7s that starts to destroy your confidence. There were some wrong way bettors that were betting heavily against me on my come out roll. They were not amused, the crew thought it was amazing, and I was becoming borderline distraught because it seemed that after all my practice of staying away from the 7, the only thing I could throw was a 7!
Anyhow, I’m digressing. The thing that really has me wondering what went on was what happened at a table that I liked. I had several hands where I just couldn’t make my point. I had about four hands of twelve to fifteen rolls where I lost money. On other good hands I either broke even or made just a little money. I was betting conservatively too! I didn’t want to get too much money in action because I hadn’t proven to myself that my little bit of confidence was deserved. I bet the pass line with 3 to 4 times odds on a $15 table. Sometimes I placed the 6 and 8 as well, but I never rolled them enough to offset my losses when I couldn’t make my point. I was using the hardway set, and about 50% of my rolls settled pretty nicely. The others had a little more roll and bounce when they came off the wall, but most stayed behind the pass line. The guy beside me whispered to me to compliment me on my throw, but I am definitely not satisfied with it.
As a side note, I’ve seen the videos of how the dice stop when they land after hitting the wall when Dom throws them. I mean…..they don’t bounce or roll at all. That is my goal, and I will never be satisfied with how I throw until I can do that every time. It really amazes me how Dom can do that so consistently. Is that something that you more accomplished folks can do every time, or is that something unique to Dom?
Anyhow, back to my story. I ended up losing only $300, but that’s because I made money on other shooters. I 5-counted everybody except for one guy that was attempting controlled throws, and he had passed the 5-count on his two previous turns. I started betting him on his come out, and I did well when he threw. However, I expected that with a few 12 to 15 roll hands, I should have been a little ahead on my own throws. Was my betting too conservative?
I always used the hardways set but I didn’t hold them in the same position every time (for example, I didn’t always use 5s up or 2s up). Is that a problem? In practice, I never focus on predicting the number I’m going to throw, I just focus on not throwing a 7. Should I start focusing on throwing a particular number?
My confidence has taken a little bit of a beating, but mostly I’m just lost in trying to figure out what just happened, how it happened, and if there’s a way I can either fix it or take advantage of it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Replies:
Posted by: Timmer on May 13, 2013, 8:37 pm
"lococraps" wrote: I’m new to dice control. I know I need to take a class. I’m planning to take a class soon, but I’ve read one of Frank and Dom’s books ( I’ve got 2 more on order) and I’ve been practicing for about 3 months now… As a side note, I’ve seen the videos of how the dice stop when they land after hitting the wall when Dom throws them. I mean…..they don’t bounce or roll at all. That is my goal, and I will never be satisfied with how I throw until I can do that every time. It really amazes me how Dom can do that so consistently. Is that something that you more accomplished folks can do every time, or is that something unique to Dom?… I always used the hardways set but I didn’t hold them in the same position every time (for example, I didn’t always use 5s up or 2s up). Is that a problem? Should I start focusing on throwing a particular number? …My confidence has taken a little bit of a beating, but mostly I’m just lost in trying to figure out what just happened, how it happened, and if there’s a way I can either fix it or take advantage of it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Hello Lococraps,
I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks for contributing to our craps message board!
It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. Bad sessions happen to all of us, so remain confident and think positively about all that you’ve accomplished thus far.
Understand that it is very hard to diagnose from a post, especially without seeing your swing mechanics and other aspects of your setup and throw. But that will come when you take the Primer class.
Your frequent sevens may be the result of your grip being off, tossing with unequal energy on the dice, varying rotation die to die, or too much or too little skin adhesion from one or more fingers or from your thumb.
Or, it could be none of these things and more a problem with your swing path and hand postion at release. With so many possible flaws that may need correcting, perhaps now you better understand why diagnosing on the boards can cause more harm than good. But I do hope this helps you.
If you are using the hardways set and double-pitching with mostly on-axis sevens, changing what pips are facing you, what pips are "up" etc., will simply result in a different double-pitch seven. (i.e. 5-2 instead of a 4-3)
We all have a goal of trying to get our dice to hit the back wall and then land quietly without randomizing. You’re right – Dominator is a master of this!
At this stage, the best advice I can give you, Lococraps, is to back off on your practice for the time being until you take your Primer class. Grooved-in swing flaws or building other bad habits into your throw are very hard to unlearn and time-consuming to change during class. I’ll suggest that for now you read and re-read the two new books you’ve ordered to best prepare yourself for your upcoming class.
I’ll also recommend that you save your money in your 401G account and stay away from the the casinos for the time being, until you’ve taken your Primer class and can then hit the craps tables with a proven edge.
Maybe others will have some different advice for you…
Lococraps, Stay positive, keep asking your great questions and let all of us know what class you sign up for. I’ll look forward to working with you!
😎 😎 😎
Posted by: Eagle Eye on May 13, 2013, 11:35 pm
Posted by: The Griz on May 14, 2013, 1:54 pm
As for the Rolls of 12 to 15… Read up on the betting strategies because those are the roles that you should be making money on. Don’t look for the 30+ roles as usual you will more than likely be rolling into the teens on a consistent basis, remember Dom’s advice, bet into your advantage!
Posted by: AlamoTx on May 15, 2013, 3:16 pm
If you’re like me, you can have great practice sessions, but be shakey as hell the first two or three times you show up at the casino and throw for real money. 90% of this is mental, just like it is with any sport.
Second, your betting strategy is not divulged. You merely said you were conservative.
Third, luck. Yep, you gotta have it even as a controlled shooter. Sometimes I roll a string of sevens to begin a 20 or 30 roll hand. Go figure. And many of the long hands I’ve had and seen have a come out 7 in the middle of them somewhere.
Fourth, how were the conditions? Crew attitude, wait time between throws, length of table.
Just about everybody who posts on this board says they read the books and saw the video and went to the casinos…and then learned they needed to be physically coached on this stuff. You ain’t alone. My girlfriend and I toured Vegas after reading the books, handing out a little money everywhere we went. This dice controls stuff takes WORK. Sometimes, I think I’m completely stupid for doing it. I own a 12 foot craps table which takes up furniture space. I practice every day and go to VEgas about 5 or 6 times per year….and I’m a $10 player! Maybe I am crazy now that I post this.
My advice would be this: Keep playing without taking the course, if you want to, but don’t expect to be this big shot dice controller. You won’t learn this on your own. In the meantime, consider taking the course. It is serious money, but no more than you’ll lose on your own. And, if you’re like me, you’ll still lose for a while after you take the course. It takes time to get any good at this. You can do it. Just make the committment to do it the right way. If you are not a green chip player, realize that you are a hobby player and that your hobby costs money. The reason I say ‘green chip’ is that if you’re a $5 unit player, it’s going to take you a long time to recoup your learning costs. So think of yourself as the guy who loves golf and doesn’t mind spending $5000 for a week of golf and coaching at Pebble Beach. Translate golf into craps and voila, there’s your mental expectation!
Good luck and keep posting. We’re all learning here and everybody will try to help you.
Alamo
Posted by: Finisher on May 15, 2013, 7:09 pm
Golf clubs cost ?
Shoes cost?
Clothes cost ?
Green fees cost ?
Practice golf costs ?
Do you get free rooms when you golf ?
Do you get free meals when you golf ?
How about drinks .
My last family outing with craps the husbands went to bar for free drinks .Wound ply machine when bar tender was looking and got plastered . While the others and I went to craps table . Were we had FUN winning.
So it all depends on what you like.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀
Posted by: lococraps on May 16, 2013, 6:16 pm
I know that right now I shouldn’t expect much because I haven’t had any personal instruction, but I am super competitive, and I hate to lose. I’m not a bad loser because I know that it will happen. It’s just that I always expect to win. Losing a few hundred dollars isn’t a big deal, especially considering the amount of money that I bet through the night, but losing, no matter how much or how little is something that just rubs me the wrong way.
Anyhow, I want to thank everyone for their advice. Hopefully I’ll see some of you in a class soon!
Posted by: Dominator on May 17, 2013, 10:50 pm
Dominator
Posted by: TheWall on May 22, 2013, 9:50 pm
Be REAL CAREFUL. I have had the 7 popping up problem in the past due to one super small issue. Make sure you DO NOT keep your three forward dice fingers tightly together!!!. They need to be loosely barely touching each other. If you throw with your fingers together with ANY pressure they will split the dice and you’ll see that 7 popping up. Believe me, I learned the difficult way. I figured this out after playing 22 hours over 3 days in Vegas about a year ago. By the way, take the class, buy a throwing and receiving station and start throwing every day until 3 seven outs. Good luck!
