After the last class in vegas of 2012… Is it supposed to happen this way??? let me explain..
I have been practicing throwing from SL1 for about 5 years now. I have had moments of real brilliance with many turns of what the heck was that… I have had a 52 shoot and 53 shoot without a seven. But the last year or so my SRR ratio has dropped well below 4. A couple of tosses then a seven is there…. I know I am doing something wrong just haven’t figured it out yet… Now for the twist… A couple of months ago I moved to shooting what I call "long ball" or shooting the full length of the table. I have flirted with this every once and a while just to be able to play at the a table… Well I have won over $12K in the last 6 outings. I rolled for 45min. can walk the line hitting numbers or points. I use what I have learnied dice sets grips and so forth… In fact by changing trajectory, higher for hard tables and lower for soft tables can play almost anywhere… I feel it is easier to disguise the fact I am a controlled shooter… The pit boss will watch me throw intently by I hit the back wall so there is not much for him to say…
SO I have applied all of the information.. set, grip, keeping the dice parallel to the table the back and a nice soft but directed toss… The control is good the landings are just about the same place every time…
At home I still practice SL1 but then hit the table for coast to coast play… I went last night it took me two or three throws to test the table …. Adjusted the trajectory for the bounce then it was an $1400 dollar win..
So is this OK? do I fail the course but win the prize? I am wondering how the controlled shooters feel about such a switch?
Dom Comented on this……
First:
Something is wrong if your SRR has dropped to 4. How many rolls are you using to come up with this number? What was your SRR before this dropped and the number of rolls used to arrive at the number. You might want to think about using Smart Craps to really know what your edge is while you shoot.
Second The end shot:
Gary when you say that you won 12K in your last 6 outings, that is terrific. … BUT , ( isn’t there always a but) … The amount of money you won is not the point in this. I don’t know if you were betting more than usual, or if you felt lucky and threw out some hardway numbers and hit them. What is important is are you throwing with an edge from that distance. You MUST know this. We teach an end shot in our advanced class but most of us only use it during a table take over. If you are not shooting with an edge from the end of the table, then you were just lucky in those last 6 outings. Now you did move luck to your side of the table because you were using the sets we recommend and that is a good thing. Remember that this whole dice control started because the Captain through observation saw that people that took "care" with the dice had longer rolls, so by doing the right thing you move the luck factor closer to your side.
But without knowing if you are shooting with an edge, you shouldn’t shoot from the end or any other spot at the table. And to figure your edge you need to have 5000 throws recorded. Now this might sound harsh, but if you truly want to be an advantage player, you need to know if you have an edge.
Dom
My response to Dom
Practice habits… I average about gennerally 120 toses a practice session. This makes the math simple. I practice virtually every day and two sessions on the weekend. That makes for alot of tosses. Some practices are practice games so that betting and other stratagies can be worked on. But those I try and simulate by a specific buy in and play until I would normally quite in the casino.
So in a statisic session 120 tosses I am anywhere from 24 to 30 7’s out of 120 tosses… This can happen 4 or 5 days in a row. The seven is 95% a 5-2 I use the set from class which is thumb on the hard 10, 6’s out. I have looked at lazy index ot ring finger as the cause but can’t seem to correct and make it stick. The last time I had a reasonable 7 toss was before the October class… where I threw 10 7’s out 120 tosses. At live sessions at the casino lost money, lost money and never really had much fun when you set the point and with in two or three throws seven out.
I know that personally I do have some performance anxiety. I am afraid of hitting the stickman in the face with my toss, The pit is up my sights because I am or pretend to be a "controlled shooter" and an overall lack of confidence because of the quick seven out.
As far as historical throws go…About 4 years ago right after my first october class I had back to back sessions of a 53 and 54 roll without a seven. Table play was always I made more money for others then I made for myself. But decent rolls with 30 to 40 min with a couple of hundred… profit. As a comparison to the current statistics, about 14 or 15 sevens for a 120 rolls session.
Comments on the end shot play…
Some advantages for me it is much easier to disguise the technique. People may be close but once the shooting starts they back off a little, its not like the stickman… I feel that I can control the tempo better shoot when I am ready. It shouldn’t make a difference SL1 or on the end but it does… My throw to me seems more fluid and like spot bowling I can put the dice in the spot I want, so as the chips clutter I can move around them. There is no doubt that the second outing hardway success with a little aggressive betting contributed to the winnings.. But shooting for 45minutes hitting 5,6,8,9 helped as well. It seems like it takes a roll or two to feel the table, bouncy, hard then some toss adjustment and I can shoot at least 20 min. One session I only won about $600 but I was setting the point maybe one number then hitting the point, for a total of 8 points.. I am not sure if that is luck when the set and hit is the same results. e.g. a 5-3 sets the point and a 5-3 wins the point.. I changed my toss a little on come out and threw 5 sevens in a row. I typically am not a lucky person but if shooting long with the application of some simple adjustments swings the luck to my favor…. I can make a few buck for a change and have a lot more fun.
At this point It is a little frustrating I see signs of being really good at this… but the physical results indicate something else…
open to the forum…
aka The Grip
Replies:
Posted by: Skinny on January 30, 2013, 12:45 am
I have the feeling your emotions are getting the better of you from SL1. Things are getting in your head and effecting your performance. You stated you have performance anxiety, the pit folks worry you and you are afraid of hitting the stickman from SL1. You are also concerned about the attention being brought because of our technique which makes it obvious you are attempting to control the dice. You do not feel the pressure of these concerns from the end of the table. With the amount of practice you do, I would not be surprised that you have a great deal of control over the dice when you are relaxed. That makes it possible for you to make a decent toss from the end.
So let us discuss this end shot. Now here comes that "BUT". Are you able to get the dice to land softly, gently kiss the back wall and die within a few inches of the back wall with your end shot? Or do they rebound with more energy and roll out further than they do from SL1? I suspect it is the latter. It is very difficult to get the dice to settle softly with an end shot. The best most can do is to get them to stay on axis in the air and rebound straight back pitching along the lateral axis resulting in a primary or secondary hit. This is where I would agree with Dom. I suspect your success from the end has been a bit of luck along with a degree of control.
Even if you have an advantage from the end, (and we do not know if you do because you have not posted your end shot sessions into SmartCraps) you should still have a bigger advantage from SL1. I think you need to work on the issues that are causing your SRR to drop from SL1.
Posted by: brothelman on January 30, 2013, 1:53 am
Post both throws the close one and the end shot help us learn to help you.
Posted by: Dominator on January 30, 2013, 2:13 pm
Skinny is so right on, please re-read what he said. Emotions are a big part. Maybe even move to SL1.5 so you won’t think you are going to hit he stickman.
Really, 120 throws doesn’t show anything. You need 5000 throws to get any kind of statistical analysis unless you use Smart Craps. Again you are looking at your win loss the last few outings to make a determination and not what the math says.
95% of 5/2 seven outs is really a good thing. That result in smart craps will give you a positive score because you are on axis. Your problem to me seems to be all grip and again I am going to say to really look at your finger alignment in the front, but also make sure your thumb is perfect centered as well. The thumb is where so many people have a little more skin on one die versus the other.
I am going to make another suggestion, try the 3V set. Now I am not saying that people should change a set to correct a problem, but in your case it just might be that you are a great axis roller if in fact 95% of your 7 outs are 5/2’s.
Dominator
Posted by: Timmer on January 30, 2013, 5:01 pm
You’ve already gotten some great advice here and plenty to think about. Thanks for taking the time to post this!
Skinny’s excellent point about being relaxed at the table is so very important. With the many distractions and other nonsense going on in the casinos, staying relaxed at the table is something I struggle with as well.
You mention making 120 tosses in your daily practice sessions and twice that on the weekends. Do you approach each practice session with a plan and a specific aspect of your throw that you intend to work on?
Be sure you are "practicing with a purpose" and not thoughtlessly playing "throw and fetch" in your sessions.
Dominator’s wise advice to you was that the culprit likely has something to do with your grip. Grip issues are what show up again and again in the classes, especially in returning students.
Getting your focus in practice away from the dice outcomes and more on identifying and correcting what may be unnoticed flaws that may have crept into your grip and swing mechanics could help.
It certainly won’t hurt!
😎 😎 😎
Posted by: GaryK on January 31, 2013, 12:45 am
To address all of feedback issues…
I am not sure about getting over my performance … When I do get relaxed it seems like its only for a couple of throws, then my arm will get off track. Then if its a seven within six throws thats statistics anyways.. I have played by myself at the tables and sometimes that has a better affect on a SL1 throw, but it may take 4 or 5 point seven cycles to get something started.
I have payed alot of atention to the grip after all the grip is everything. I am almost positive that one of three things is happening to contribute to the failure. A slight twist in the wrist. I can’t figure whether this is a mistiake or genitc … by that I mean as I do slow motion studies with my arm It looks like the bone muscle connection pulls the wrist to the inside when making a relaxed pendulum motion swing. The second is the ring finger slides a little or the third is the index pulls a little.. Holding the dice in the best position is not comfortable at all to hold… I have used rubberbands, strings I came close to using super glue just to prove the geometry problem. So not being comfortable causes the hand to make that adjustment in flight. Or I can hold it only for a couple of throws. I have tried to grip a little deeper. It seems like in all cases any adjustment works for awile but in the longer haul the results curve back to the same ….. so is that a simple case of being lazy… or the grip reverts back without thinking….. So that is why long ball feels more comfortable to the hand because the motion is all in front of you, not as a side arm throw…. When my dice hit the wall on long throw they are where I want them and the scatter is minimal.. The die stop together or are in that line that you want parallel to the back table. I want to say that I don’t see any bounce back past the 10 place box. So why isn’t the excitement or the proformance bugging me from that end of the table… I am tuned into the local setting because I have to shoot "downstream" that is a superstion but the main flow of the people by the table determines throwing left to right or right to left…. It makes a difference for me getting tuned in…. silly I know…
I agree that 120 samples is a small size but when the numbers are fairly consistent grouping to grouping the central limit theorm validates the sample size and grouping. I do have smart craps so I am going to start loading data from the practice sessions. I think the first couple of times that I loaded blocks of numbers a few years back the software said that I "sucked"…. lot of ones were in those results. see that tells me that the wrist is not staying in place.
I should make more of a concious effort to practice with a purpose…. But when those sevens come out the focus can waver…
I am planning a casion outing this thursday… I have some real testing that I am going to perform.. I think I am at a point where I need a fullsize table at home to practice vs. the tub that I have…
thanks
Gary "The Grip"
Posted by: Finisher on January 31, 2013, 1:45 am
Good Rolling. 😀 😀
Posted by: Dominator on January 31, 2013, 8:55 pm
Dom
Posted by: GaryK on January 31, 2013, 10:41 pm
Posted by: Dr Crapology on February 1, 2013, 11:31 pm
I was your mentor at the October class for the refresher. You probably still have the notes from the refresher but it might help others as well to review some of the finer points:
Gary – reach out
Gary– Stay with follow through. Make sure no whiteness in grip (means you’re holding the dice too tight). Reach out. Don’t rush.
Do the same thing every time with your grip, backswing and follow through.
Pick up the dice – acquire the target – 1,1000,2,1000 – start backswing and forward momentum toward your target with a smooth back-forward swing.
Soft landing. Follow through not too high. Not above shoulder height.
Whatever side bounced to means other side is not square on dice (check your grip).Practice with the gripper until your dice are looking really good together.
Gary – Keep shoulders level — you don’t want one shoulder higher than the other.
Gary – 3’s up 5’s facing you to check your grip
Don’t open hand at follow through.
Hold dice loosely.
Hold the “C” at the follow through.
Keep thumb centered on 5’s.
If see white on fingertips you’re holding the dice too tight. Hold dice loosely.
Gary – Get on the pads not the tips with the dice.
Stand up straighter and reach for the shot – demonstrated shooting dice over Randman’s arm to get the height and the drop down
Gary – Smooth one motion back to front
Gary – Keep the “C” at follow through
Gary – good!
Gary, I would suggest either the Elite Video which I think is great and you have a disk to reference back to, The Tune Up which is great, or another refresher.
After the two days of refresher before, you notice the last instructor’s comments were "Good!".
You’ve got the discipline and dedication and it’s really fun to win but it takes a lot of practice done correctly.
Thanks for posting on the web — I’m sure the answers have benefited many different people as well.
Good rolling
Alligator Rose
Posted by: sevenout on February 3, 2013, 5:29 am
1. Opening my hand on release. If I keep my fingers closed my dice look much better.
2. Shorting my follow though (quitting on my shot). When I extend my follow though I get better results.
My thought while reading how you shoot better from the end was that because of the distance you are forced to have a full follow though to reach the back wall.
