When I first started playing craps 1981 it was in Vegas at a small casino just north of the old Sands on a .50 table. I knew almost nothing about the game but endedup winning a few hundred bucks. After that I lost a few hrndred several times and it usually did’nt take long. Since learning and using the 5 count bad sessions don’t happen very often. I believe that learning a controlled toss and developing even a moderate level of skill can take time and is a journey many of us are enjoying.As for how long it takes, I don’t think I am there yet so I may be the wrong person to respond. There have been some sessions where I thought I was getting close but never consistent enough to say I had arrived. For me the key here is consistency. Stance, grip, target,mental focus, backswing, forward swing trigger, release and follow thru. I don’t think there is an answer to the question of How long? Just keep on working with a consistent approach and I think you will see some positive results.

lylastar I tell people that if they bet the opposite way they will have a better chance at winning. The more you know the less chance you have of winning. 😀 😀
I still remember when I know nothing and went up to the craps table with 16.00 between the two of us and walked away 6 hrs. later with 312.00 go fig. 😀 😀
That was back in the 70s .
How do you feel today ?How did you feel last Sun. The same goes for craps . It is a day to day thing.One day you are right on the next throw it is all gone . Be-live it feel it DO it .
Don’t forget about Murphy s Law.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

Even a squirrel finds an acorn every now and then. The assumption of this post is that everyone will make money playing craps if they don’t learn dice control. At least that is the way I am reading this post. WRONG!

Every bet on the table carries an edge so it is impossible to beat this game without learning dice control.

The three things you need to beat the game of craps:

1. Learn our controlled throw
2. Calculate your edge when you are throwing the dice
3. Beat into that edge

IN answer to your last question, yes, it is typical to go up rapidly in your learning curve at first and then down slightly as you progress. It will then turn around again and your edge will steadly get greater

Dominator

I like the analogy of golf to playing craps. Take a golf lesson and your game will be in the toilet until you work what you have learned into your game. The same is true with craps. Take the course and your results may not be great for a while until you work the GTC principles into you game.

Remember you can learn the throw, but if you make bad bets even the great Dominator can’t beat the house edge.

The good golfers that I know (especiqally the pros on the PGA gour) take lessons from time to time and they practice. As dice controlers we need to do the same thing.

I see way too many students who take the course and automatically think they are experts when they are only a novice. It takes time, patience and lots (many lots) of work daily.

Doc

Every craps player has had wins on a random game.
Most never see these wins for what they are.
A random event sometimes swings in favor of the player.
In the long run the math will always win.

As a random player you bet on other random players.
When you win playing this way you or your skill have nothing to do with the win.
It is just random luck.

As you learn the GTC method you begin to play different.
You practice a controlled shot.
You make only smart low house edge bets.
You 5 count other players (or better no bet at all).

All of these things change the game.
Of course if you are an advantage player that is the goal.
The wins are more satisfying because you made it happen.
The losses are your fault.

Walking away when your shot is off is the hard part of this whole thing.
Time and experance will teach you this is the only way to keep the losses small.
The combination of a controlled shot and smart betting will make sure the wins are much larger
than the losses.

JRC

More progress on the self-teaching front!

Dominator it seems the tape of you throwing is serving as the main influence to my zeroing in on the GTC throwing method. The dice launch I had perfected from earlier basically resulted in a fast FORWARD spin along the Z-axis toward the +x backwall (backwall to the boxman’s direct left with me standing at SL1 or SL2 [using the coordinate system in use by the creator of SmartCraps, where +y is the ceiling, -x is backwall to boxman’s RIGHT, and +z the axis pointing from boxman to stickman – so all backspin and forward spin are spinning along the z-axis]. Being Righthanded, my throw is from just left of the stickman, to his immediate LEFT, along the positive x-axis to impact in front of the +x backwall). Only via the coordinates can I get the description straightly described, and I think I have the system of coordinates used by SmartCraps author correctly employed. If not tell me.

So about a week ago the question of why was it that Dominator bent his wrist so far back, to bring it quickly straight and then slightly raised as his arm moved from its prethrow backpendulum position to its extended and then followed through with end position as he launches his throw. I knew it was somehow related to how Dom imparted backspin to the dice. It took me a full night to work out the almost real magic and power of his spin in my own live performed emulation into my practice rig. I (since that night) have played with varying the spin power from a superspin down to a slow or very slow backspin, and varied the spin against the swinging forward of my arm/hand (like a pendulum) noticing that with a very slow backspin I needed to use a faster arm swing so that the dice make it to the landing zone without falling in front of the rig to the real apartment floor. And its opposite, using a superbackspin my arm barely has to move at all for the dice to just fly straight out of my hands into the rig backwall without hardly falling into the inverted parabolic arc that such dice throws take (making the superspin parabola like a very flat bowl upsidedown). And of course their is a narrow range of the right amount of spin together with a soft and slow arm swing so that the dice arc a bit and impact the rig without much energy.

So this caused me to have to totally redo all of what I learned before in how I should throw the dice and seems in results (tho I look different doing it) to mimic a beginner’s version of Dominic’s throw style (I wish I had his results record but that is the fun of a journey of 1000 miles I guess!!).

So everything has been redone….hopefully in time to make some kind of effect when I next visit ACY at the Claridge tower of Bally’s Dec10-13, since I was able to book the room 3 mo. ago @ $24/nt. Definately GTC is the best of the teachers of precision dice control. Wish I could take their course but I face the truth of being a poor person so: can’t afford to pay $1500 for any endeavor! Sorry.

–lylastar

It is great that you are trying to be self taught and asking questions all the time. We have our books out there, our DVD, and this forum so that there is a place to ask questions and books to read so that for those that can’t take a class can learn.

Dominator

Like any sport you need to adjust. I think that golfers wish they only had to practice one way one distance but unlikely .
We all need to realize that shit happens.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

"Dominator" wrote: It is great that you are trying to be self taught and asking questions all the time. We have our books out there, our DVD, and this forum so that there is a place to ask questions and books to read so that for those that can’t take a class can learn.

Dominator

Yeah, Dominator. Other improvements on order rolled into my PO Box 2 days ago, too. One is the refreshingly not-just-a-pen-name-for-Frank Craps book "Get the Edge at Craps" that I ordered thru amazon and not you (otherwise wanting to give GTC my business) since orders at amazon >$25 get free SuperSavings shipping, which kills you at often $9-$18/shipment) by the author Sharpshooter who I believe is also a GTC compatriot. The other amazon items were chips (nice superhigh quality chips that were themselves expensive (Eclipse 14 gm. clay-ceramic) so that my mind would look at them and be tricked into thinking them as valuable as real chips (almost 🙂 ). Final item was a slightly smaller than regulation craps layout, so I could conduct full simulations of playing craps on a casino table at 4:30am by myself and test how well I can do under these well-simulated conditions, with full buyinns & payouts etc by the other 1/2 of me that would act as the "casino" against the playing 1/2 of me testing my skills. So I have Sharpshooter’s cool book (I say that right away because, like myself, he is a science/mathematics-minded person and his very technical explanations are MY LIFE BLOOD not some crazy way to bore me to tears as it is with most,

So yeah big Dominator I’ve caused to happen the best non-class scenario I could put together. Now we mix in 2-5 years of practice plus at-casino playing, and maybe someday I will pop out as someone worthy of your respect as a dice thrower and not just an unusual person!

–lylastar

p.s. Thx Sharpshooter for endeavoring to toil at such a supremely cool book. You too Frank Scoblete, your stuff was what sold me the prospect and documented those two oh so cool people who are too far back in time to be with us now but who you, at least, had such a privilege to hang out with for so long: the Arm and the Captain. I am a few weeks away from staying at one of their original casino hotels, now the only historic hotel in ACY, The Claridge.

You should read "casino craps Shoot to win" great book, I’ve read allot of them including "sharpshooters Book" which was very good as well, but no offense to anyone but I prefer the Shoot to win book, it has a DVD that comes with it, plus I use it to refer to often I think be read the book like 6 times by now.

You know I don’t mind people buying things else where, like your purchase of the books from Amazon, but really annoys me is that each time you mention buying or looking for things … this time the books and the last time for a practice rig, you have to snip in some comment about our costs. Do have something against a company making a living and people getting compensated for the work they do? This time is is the cost of shipping…;.

Sorry we are not as big as Amazon and can offer free super shipping. Do me a favor unless you don’t want me to answer or look at anymore of your posts… STOP THE JABS ABOUT OUR COSTS PLEASE. You are not the only one that research price and look for a deal. Heck I do as well but I don’t go on the store’s website and jab them for their costs

Dominator

Dom, you could not be more right.
Everyone has to make a profit or why do this.
Price is not always the absolute best thing to base a purchase on.
The service or knowledge that comes as part of the deal has value.
In the case of GTC it is worth many times the cost.
Keep up the good work you guys do.

JRC

🙂