Your post really resonated with me. I also found the video analysis extremely insightful. Seeing is believing. Having NFF draw a line across my shoulders & say "where do you think the dice are going to land?" really opened my eyes to the fact I need to check my stance from an outside perspective. My performance has sucked, moneywise, but when my hand goes, hard 4, hard 8, hard 6, 7-out (5/2), I know I’m doing something right.

As far as throwing in the towel, I know where you’re coming from. Since 2008 I have considered quiting at least a dozen or more times. The siren song of "just a little more practice and I will have a breakthrough" is alluring. Sounds like you golf so I will offer this personal anecdote. After struggling for some time, I decided to take a different tach. I read one of Chuck Hogan’s books on the mental game. For the next month at the range, I would try to find something positive about every shot. After a BIG banana slice maybe my grip felt solid or my weight shift felt right. The idea was negative thoughts bring about more negative thoughts. The next round I played, I did the same thing. Find something positive about every shot or putt. Not only was it one of my lowest scoring rounds ever, it was one of my most enjoyable because I wasn’t beating myself up for part (most) of the round.

Well said sevenout…and I enjoyed making your acquaintance, BTW.

I seriously doubt I’ll quit the game, but I do think that if I continue, I may need to adjust my expectations a bit. Consider it a hobby, period, even if it is a bit of an expensive hobby. So is golf, by the way! Especially if you travel and try to play all the exotic courses.

What you say about the mental aspect is sound. I think your confidence at the table has something to do with how it turns out. I don’t think there is a video analysis for how to get a person’s mind straightened out, and admittedly, mine is in a questionable place at the moment. But, as they say, ‘this too shall pass’. I’ve thrown well in the past and I probably will, again. The times I have done well, however, have been times when I"ve had good confidence which, in turn, came about because of good practice results. And, to really throw a philosophical monkey wrench in the works, it is possible that I’m just on an unlucky vibe with this stuff. There is a random factor to all this that does not necessarily respond to your throw or your attitude.

I guess all I can add is ‘onward through the fog!’

Alamo

Hey Alamo, sorry we couldn’t get togetherthis trip. It wasn’t for a lack of trying.

Lately (last 2 weeks) I have been in a real funk. Lois finally said that my mental state has to change. She says I beat myself up over every bad shot. She says the negativity has to stop.

Now on the subject of practice and more practice. She practices little compared to me. She has better rolls than me consistently. It must be her better mental attitude.
It also might be that when we roll we bet on what the table is giving up not just the 6 and 8.
Clark

Clark –

Thanks for the post. Did want to shoot with you guys, but I’m sure we’ll make it happen one day soon. I hope people aren’t getting the idea that I’m a gloom and doom kind of guy. Just trying to make a post about my current reality.

Most importantly, I mentioned that I am going to go back to practice and work on the new stuff. Hopefully, there will be some noticeable improvement. It takes a while for bad habits to seep in and I’m sure they don’t correct quickly either.

Very good thought on betting on what the table gives up. Come betting definitely allows that as opposed to the 6 & 8 betting but…if you don’t roll some numbers, none of it works.

Peace my brothers and sisters.

Alamo

Just as an example. On Sunday night Lois had an average 19 roll but she hit no 6’s and only the come out 8. She hit 3 4’s. 3 10’s. 4 9’s. 4 5’s. 2 3’s and an 11 and the 7 out. A good money maker for me.

I too have much practice to do. Until we meet again.
Clark

Alamo,

Seems like 2008 may have something to do with it. I started my journey that year also. Your paragraph 5 reads like I thought and wrote it. There have been many ups and downs and since I’m self-taught there have been some very deep valleys that I thought I might never come out of. I am an unusual man in that I can diagnose many of my own flaws but definitely not always quickly.

I made small but steady wins (My first try at LV was the best win I have had so far and that was in May of 2008) until my wife was diagnosed with cancer. I quit playing altogether and after her death I still didn’t play at any casino until a year had elapsed from the diagnosis date. My play was up and down and I stayed about even until last December when everything fell apart. I was down to the end of the first third of my bankroll and wondered if I should just throw in the towel.

One casino where I had been consistently winning the only win I had was $20. It is one of my favorite places to play, good crew and very easy to deal with the box too. Decent comps, no wins. I was however getting some wins at other houses that was keeping me going, barely. The table is very similar to mine in characteristics and I do well and consistent at home but why not there? I felt that I had to try and discover if I could. It started at the casino and when I got the dice I noticed that I tensed up, then I set them down took a deep breath tried to relax and OMG, what a difference. It has turned out that it was me tensing and worrying about the money. I am a very conservative bettor even on myself and I have had to learn to open up and trust my toss. Still a work in progress.

Now for the past 6 weeks I have won 5 out of 6 and my loss was very small. My son, MrE, went with me for the first time in many months and he said my toss was the softest that he has ever seen me throw and it was quite noticeable. I have won almost a third of my overall losses back and am anticipating having much more consistent wins and while not large by most standards they will get me to where I want to go.

I suspect that your personality is quite like mine and maybe Dom’s in that we are very hard on ourselves thinking that all the practice should make the difference not realizing that that expectation is what is holding us back (not Dom). My advise for you is relax and get a soft throw at home then feel it at the real tables. It was quite a wakeup call for me that I was the problem and not the table. However, my table requires a little firmer grip than tables at the casino and I must not forget that when I play for real.

I hope this encourages you.

Good rolling

OneMoonCircles

Just a little quick report. While I think some of my challenges could well be mental, I’m sure that much more of it may be the bad habits that had been creeping into my game. Last night was the first practice session I have been able to have since learning the new ( for me ) set up, grip and delivery. Had a quick 7 out, then rolled a non-stop 49. No 7s in the middle. So…I’d say that the corrections that the guys made in my video analysis may well work. Of course, I don’t expect to roll like that in every session. The point is that, like it or not, I had slipped into doing something wrong and now I’ve got to work on fixing it. More importantly, if you can do it in practice, you can do it in the casino.

Alamo

Alamo,

I understand your frustration. This is not an easy thing to do. I am wondering what your game looks like. By that I mean do you play alone or with other GTC players? Do you five count yourself, other GTC players, and of course all Randies. What does your betting look like? Not so much dollars but place bets or come bets. How do you collect and press at the tables when a roll begins to extend into something?

From the post I have seen from you in the past I expect you response will be pretty detailed. I think much of the losses are the result of the betting not your toss. You have been at this for a while now and I know you pratice from the post you have made. The shot is really the easy part of this whole deal. The edge one can have is sometimes small at best. You must bet smart if that edge is going to result in more wins than losses.

Advantaged play is the only way to go so don’t give up on this. People on this board have a lot of information to share and most as you know will if you ask.

Good rolling
JRC

JRC –

I appreciate your concern. However, I think I was mostly simply airing out the frustration not looking for a fix. It is not as though I have never won at controlled shooting. I’ve had numerous rolls in the teens and twenties and many in the 30s. Have not officially broken 40 yet. Best I’ve done in practice is a 72. So, the physical skill is present…at least sometimes. I’ve played alone and with others, and they know my game. I"m not sure there is an ‘answer’ for my post. It was basically a trip report that said ‘I’m getting to the point where I’ve about had enough of this crap [pun intended]’. However, sometimes it is just about getting back to work. You may have read that I just rolled a 49 in practice using the modifications that No Field Five and Billy The Kid gave me. I was betting $10 units and would have made almost $1500 had that session been ‘live’. Such a win would have seriously re-supplied the 401G. This has also been a terrible year for me with sports betting, my other game in the casinos. So, there is just the possibility that lady luck has been to blame for a lot of this. And ‘Clark’ made a good point about the mental dynamics of shooting. You’ve got to be confident when you take the dice. I’ve got to work on that. Mas tarde.

Alamo

I am glad to hear you are just blowing off some steam. I have been where you seem to be and it is not a good place. The skill comes and goes on a day by day basis so sometimes the problem is one of confidence. The advice you got from the instructors will be right on the money. They are very good at what they do so I am sure all will be fine.

JRC

I am now age 56. When I was a kid with my family, we moved around every 1.5-2 yrs, so by the time I’d form friendships it would be time to move…again! As an adult until my late 30s I also had some reason or another to relocate myself. I always hated moving and have now put a huge stop to it.

A byproduct of this nastiness was having few or zero friends, and the living of a more than less solitary life. Some periods *totally* alone for years at a whack. I am not looking for sympathy, in fact it did something good for me I think. Being perpetually curious, I learned how to be good teaching myself new & complex things, precision dice control the most recent. I hear all the lamentations from others and do agree it is one hell of a difficult thing to do in any consistent way. But for me I felt I was learning neither fast nor slow, just at an avg. rate of improvement (and have seen the GTC public tapes, e.g. The 8 Elements of Dice Control, & read Frank’s books, but have taken no classes ’cause I’m pretty poor financially).

It is only after reading a thread like this one that I think maybe I’ve been progressing superfast. In 5 months of practice, tho, I know *for sure* I have a long way to go til I feel "good enough." My main thought is some people may be overthinking their throws when in the process of throwing the dice. Just blank out your mind and keep putting up with mistakes without emotionally beating yourself. One throw or another, eventually, you will "accidentally" do it right. Now stop then and sleep on that. Next practice, REMEMBER and COPY that breakthrough toss. You’ll do it, but blank out your thoughts first. Repeat, do the throw again, and try for a second instance of it. Did you make it? Try for no more than 15 min. either way. Sleep. Repeat next time til you duplicate it again, or til you’re tired. Etc., etc.

See what is happening? You are trying to let out and give control over to your inner subconscious mind that ALREADY KNOWS THE GOOD THROW. You are trying to make the inner you also the outer, performing you as well.

At least that is my method.