Obviously those pyramids randomize the dice and prevent any control or influence, right?

Cutting Edge Craps puts all the criticism to rest about the back wall. It ain’t what it seems to be.

I’m shocked!!!

I am extremely surprised that on a forum dedicated to Dice Control, only one individual took the time to defend their belief!

Did anyone read the article against dice control?

Did anyone care that it directly attacked GTC.

It stated:

Excerpts from the dice-setting website: "Craps can be beaten—. There is only one way to beat craps in the long run and that is through precision shooting and dice control—. Craps can be beaten by changing the nature of the game from a mathematical and random contest, where the casino has built in the edge for itself, to a physical contest, where the person who shoots the dice can gain the edge by skill—. Dice control is a physical skill that can be learned by disciplined players who are willing to practice and perfect the techniques we teach them… Our teachers are the greatest dice control specialists in the world, many with books and major publications to their credit, all with years of winning casino experience behind them—. This craps strategy is called dice control, precision shooting, or rhythmic rolling—. There are no ‘board certified’ dice controllers yet. Everyone is self-certified; that is to say, you have to take them at their word—. The [name redacted] board of directors wanted [name redacted] to have the highest standards of excellence in the budding field of dice control. To do this, we set up tough criteria for our instructors and coaches to meet. They had to be skilled shooters and good teachers—. These criteria have been established to standardize and elevate the teaching of dice control by subjecting our teachers to a rigorous certification process that makes sure they understand, can demonstrate and can effectively teach all the essential areas of our curriculum."

Analysis: For analysis of this claim, and all other claims about the merits of dice control, read the free sample chapter of my eBook. In the sample chapter, I don’t go into detail about the certification of so-called dice-control specialists, so I’ll talk a bit about it here. I must admit, this guy’s website is well-written and I respect the writer, not because I agree with the message, but because I like the writing. The author did a particularly wonderful job dreaming up and explaining the certification process. The idea actually sounds legitimate. However, in my opinion,it’s simply a well-crafted and well-written part of an elaborate scheme to separate you from your money. The author goes into a lengthy excuse for the fact that the certification program for their dice-control instructors was developed, executed, and managed by the same people trying t osell you the product. The sophisticated excuse does a fantastic job of explaining why no independent authority exists that can administer the certification process. I suggest that you think twice about the validity of the explanation. Any certification process not developed, executed, and administered by an independent organization should immediately raise a red flag in your brain. If the certification authority is the same bunch
who’s selling the product, it’s like sending the fox to guard the hen house. In my opinion, the reason an independent organization still doesn’t exist after so many years since the idea of dice setting was born is because dice setting can’t be proven to be legitimate over the long-term.
(Read the free sample chapter to find out why I feel this way.) In the 30 or 40 years that so-called dice-control specialists have been around, surely some entrepreneur somewhere would have formed an independent organization to test and certify dice setters. However, according to the excerpt, no such independent organization exists. Makes you wonder doesn’t it?

The author has directly attacked GTC. The portion of the quote in red is taken directly form the GTC home page.

You have the right to ignore direct attacks against your belief.

[list=square]I for one, believe in Dice Control!

[*]I have learned about it.[/*][*] I have tried it.[/*][*] i have lived it. I am not the best of dice controllers, but I believe![/*][*] I am pleased that others do not believe and write against it to provide cover for those of us who do believe. [/*][/list]

CIII, interesting article. I like to read what others are saying even if I don’t believe it. I am conservative but I do read what the liberals have to say, so I know what is going on in their minds.

In the last class I was mentoring a student who commented that he always makes an any craps (craps check) on every come out roll. He asked " don’t you think this is a good bet?"

I responded "no, it is not a good bet and here’s why. Remember the any craps bet is a one roll bet. You have only 4 ways to win the any craps bet (2,3 12), and 8 ways to win if a 7 or 11 shows. However that’s only 12 combinations to win or lose on the come out roll, but you have 24 ways to set a box number–4,5 6 8,9,10. Since any craps is a one roll bet you only have 4 ways to win yet you have 32 ways to lose that $1 on that one roll. Not much of a sweat??? (after all its only $1) but they do add up. You should be paid 8 to 1 and they pay you 7 to 1. Sounds like a losing proposition to me."

He responded "I’ll never make that bet again."

No great math analysis but simple logic to me. I find this type of analysis is simple on all the "prop" bets and other high HA (house advantage) bets.

Thanks for all you contribute to this web page. Hope to meet you in the casinos soon.

Just my $.02 worth.

Doc

Hi CIII and everyone, including the writer CIII quotes:

I appreciate the guy saying I am a good writer. He at least got that one thing right! 😉 But all the rest of his stuff is wrong; totally, completely wrong. The very doctors who charge you for your visits are the same doctors who can sit on the American Medical Society boards; the same holds true for lawyers; real estate brokers; teachers and others. The members of the community create the standards (yes, with debate and interplay).

Now outside testing of dice control? My lord, every single one of you who has taken the class and/or read the books and/or seen the DVD or have done all three knows two things:

1. If you have an SRR of 1:6.3, you can overcome the house edge on certain bets
2. If you pass the SmartCraps tests you have axis control

Those are our "outside" verifications. You can’t fool yourself into thinking you control the dice when your SRR shows you aren’t or when your SmartCraps tests show you don’t have enough axis control to use sets other than the Hardway set even if your SRR is decent.

Every single one of our students can test themselves. Again, you can’t con the SRR or the SmartCraps tests. So dice control is firmly proven by the players who are passing these criteria. There’s no bullshit here. You think you can control the dice? Great – test yourself and see if it is true.

I just hope the guy who wrote that bought my books….

The writer states it’s:
Distribution Variance
Not:
Dice control

http://www.learnthesecrettocraps.com/sample3.html

Why would Frank reveal his secrets to the rest of us???

He wants to sell books, of course, and the writer of these articles wants what?

CIII

The silence on the question of dice control on this board speaks volumes
about what we beleive…you dont have to defend something that you have
proven to yourself is true. Look at stickman and the throws he has had, do
you think some one could say to him, you know this stuff does not work….and
really expect an answer????

Remember the old saying….. a man convinced against his will, is of the same
opinion….still…… if i have to "convince" a person that dice control is real
it is not worth effort. Its like a person saying to me that they feel the world
is still flat….. hey good for you buddy,,,good luck.

The truth is many people believe in dice control even of they are not GTC, just
watch at the tables.. they stand in the same place, they throw into the corner.
they throw high etc… the only difference is they dont really know what makes
dice control …….dice control.

I indicated months ago about a guy i met at the table, he was maybe 75-80
years old, and i was throwing and doing ok, he nodded to me…when he got the
dice the threw exactly the same way every time… not exactly like us but the
same basics and he did well.

He then walked over to me and whispered in my ear…" most people dont
believe in dice control, you and i know better"

gman

Don’t miss any parts of this authors rhetoric against Dice control and his disgust with Dice Setting,

http://www.learnthesecrettocraps.com/sample.html
http://www.learnthesecrettocraps.com/sample2.html
http://www.learnthesecrettocraps.com/sample3.html
http://www.learnthesecrettocraps.com/sample4.html

This guy is a loser and is content to stay a loser. He should take the course, practice, watch the instructors throw and see for himself that it works.

I took a dice control course in Pleasantville NJ back in 2002. It really opened my eyes. Since that time I have read books and articles authored by Sharpshooter, Frank S., Sam G., Yuri K., Zeke F., and a host of others. Is it possible? For me it is. I realize that it happens to be a skill set I have been able to achieve a certain degree of proficiency in as opposed to others (darts, golf, basketball) that I have a low degree of proficiency in. That’s what’s true for me. I would speculate that 99% (or more) of craps players do not have the dedication or discipline to train themselves in dice control. You can’t take a pill or apply a lotion or study a basic strategy card and expect wonderful results. Practice, patience, and continuing to learn and train is what has worked for me.
I do not drive a Rolls Royce and never will as my comfort level is at or below having $30 each Place bets on the 6 and 8. If I wager any higher, my comfort level is gone and I drop out of my zone. Someday I will increase that level but for now, I live with it and win with it.

I just noticed that the authors name had not been mentioned:

http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=William_Enslen_Jr

Also interesting:
http://www.google.com/search?q=William+Enslen+Jr+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Rubber material lines the inside wall of the bed and is called Rail Rubber. Below the rail rubber on each inside end of the table is a 6-to-8-inch wide piece of Pyramid Rubber. This is the part of the table with all the little pyramids or spikes that are specially designed to randomly deflect the dice. Casinos have a rule that a player must "hit the back wall" when tossing the dice. This rule ensures the dice hit the pyramid rubber, thereby, preventing anyone from controlling the outcome of a dice roll. Regardless of what you hear, read, or see at a live craps table, no one (NO ONE!) can consistently control the outcome of a craps roll when the dice hit the pyramid rubber. They just can’t. (Please read my other articles about the silly notion of "dice control" or "dice setting.")

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/3183878

http://ezinearticles.com/?Learn-Casino-Craps—What-Are-the-Pieces-of-a-Craps-Table?&id=3183878

In researching this post, I just realize that i know this author. I had no clue until I posted his picture!

I met him at a craps table and was questioned by him as to my knowledge of the game. He gave me a rapid fire quiz on the house advantage of numerous bets. I answered them quickly and accurately. He told me that Dice Control did not work(quess he had seen me toss a point seven).

As he left the table, he dissed me to the dealer on his end of the table.

It’s a small world.

I agree that reading Cutting Edge Craps takes the wind out of this guy’s sails.

I also think Frank decimates him with SRR and Smart Craps references. We do have proof that it works! You can’t pass these tests of you don’t have dice control.

This guy you are quoting is just one of these self published know-it-alls and he seems from your description CIII to be an obnoxious one too!

CIII,

I must admit when I first read your post, I did not read this guy’s stuff for the reasons given by gman. I did not feel like reading a bunch of stuff by some guy, who probably does not know what he is talking about, who is trying to convince me that something does not work when I have evidence to the contrary. But now that I have been prompted by you to take a closer look at this I find it both sad and humorous.

It is sad because, this appears to be a fairly intelligent individual who is wasting his talent jumping to conclusions about what he has misinterpreted because of what appears to be a preconceived or developed notion without the proper research and analysis to back up his assumptions. It is humorous because I found myself laughing out loud at some of his findings based on his picking sections of a paragraph or two and misconstruing or actually distorting the intent of the section because of his lack of knowledge and incomplete information.

This man, who obviously has an agenda for promoting himself, appears to have no desire to gather knowledge about dice control in order to make an informed decision about its viability or not. He appears to be making some claim to have developed a way of beating the game of craps using math. He seems to be claiming short term variance can be used to overcome negative expectation. I will not jump to conclusions about his strategy the way he did about dice control. I have no desire to read his methodology to see what he is actually saying. But I know for a fact it is not possible to get a positive advantage when betting against a negative expectation if one plays for any serious length of time over the lifetime of ones gambling career.

I think the way he treated you at the tables speaks volumes about what he is all about. First he grilled you about the math of some of the wagers. That seemed to be an attempt to either impress you with his knowledge or show that you as a dice controller did not know anything about math of the game. When that did not work he walked off in a huff and made disparaging comments about you to the dealers. He did not know you from Adam and had no reason to treat you the way he did. But civility and common decency did not seem to enter into his order of business for that encounter. He seems to take the same approach with dice control from the little I have read of his "opinions".

Skinny,

Haughty, was the description that went through my mind at our first meeting.

He bought in at the right end of the table with a flair while the dice were out. His buy-in was pretentiously large and he covered all of the numbers with Place Bets, but turned them off. I believe that he also played the Doey-Don’t, but I am not sure about that. He would wait for a few rolls and then turn the bets on, get a hit and turn them off again.

[list=square]I have played at different tables(Craps and Crapless)with him and would suspect that he would have a disregard for me for several reasons:[*]I was setting the dice[/*][*]I had control[/*][*]I passed his test with ease(he intended to embarrass me by putting me down) [/*][*]I tossed many Craps numbers at the Crapless table.[/*][/list]My intent is to toss off axis 6’s and 8’s plus Craps numbers on the Crapless table. I do this while using the Hardway Set. It looks like a terrible toss to those who do not use buy bets on the extreme outside number or are unfamiliar with Crapless Craps. That is when he dissed me and left the table.

I am truly going to enjoy playing with him in the future now that I have read his articles.

Is the writter of the web site ( http://www.learnthesecrettocraps.com ) a politician? To busy telling yoiu how the other person is wrong instead of about what he can do to help you. What is with his web site? Is it Christmas?

At any rate, it is not just that Frank relays alot of information about the game of craps, and dice controll in his book. I find it an enjoyable read that covers various levels of the potential reader. It is also a short read, with alot of great stories.

I just noted that on this book it states Frank is Americas’s Best-Selling Gaming Author. Everyone wants a shot at the golden belt.
I guess that makes him (Frank) a winner in many arenas.

I don’t post because I am a lurker but these posts are really worth reading.

With two such tests of whether dice control can work there is no need to argue with the doubters. They know nothing about what we really do. Let them stay happy in their stupidity.

I am going to take my post and fashion an article around it. I think it is an important topic that CIII has brought up.

What is great about critics is that they actually know little or nothing about dice control.

The E-Book is a perfect example of the old saying "A sucker born every minute" I am sure that this individual will make a lot of money from sales of this worldly knowledge from all the suckers. At my local casino where I probably play way too much for every dealer knows me and the way I throw and that they will get good tips as I play and make money. Several dealers will even make observations if I am the only one there such as "your inside die is rotating faster than the other one" or "the dice are rotating like their glued together". When I make my point, the dealers say "Bob’s bucks in our bank". They will also poke fun if I 7 out too quickly or state "You didn’t practice before you came,did you."

I’d write that guy a letter but I can’t spell Pthbbbbbbbbbb!

GTC works.

GTC makes me money.

I have recooped my investments in GTC many times over( I have recooped my class, travel and lodging imediately after every class).

Every time I a take a class, I know that my level of play goes up a notch or two.

I watch others that play some system and play with 5,000 or 6,000 and lose all in one cycle round the table of the table, and and those that make 3-4 thousand on my throw and by the time the dice come around to me again, they leave because they lost it all on the others.

I think on this site no one really doubts the truth of dice control or how great GTC is. The critics of GTC or of Frank are essentially morons or those who wish they were him.

Having personally watched some of the instructors throw the dice in the casino, I know they are not random throwers. Each one of them rolled for awhile and did it on more than one occasion. Even the dealer commented that, "These guys can are good throwers." It made me a believer!

All of us guys should be so happy this critic is spreading the belief that
dice control is all bunk. We should thank him and hope that the casino
people are reading his book and they become hardened in their thinking that
dice control does not work.
Rejoice! Be happi, don’ worri.
He’s a gift from the dice gods to us.
Couldn’t want better.
Let’s hope for more of the likes of him.

The critics are just critics. They actually do nothing.

Just in case you didn’t see this part of our friend’s(William J. Enslen, Jr.) diatribe on dice setters:

When you experience these clowns at the table, act like a beginner and politely ask, "Why do you do set the dice like that?" You’ll be amazed and amused by their stupid responses. But don’t stand too close while talking to them; their bad breath from all the bullshit coming out of their mouths is strong enough to knock you down. For even more fun, ask them, "What number are you going to roll?"
If he responds (he likely won’t), then say, "A buck side bet says you won’t roll that number." If you’re lucky and the idiot takes your bets, you’ll win more from him than you will from the casino.

It is interesting to note that he believes that dice control is just trying to roll a specific number. He doesn’t even realize that we might be trying to avoid the Seven.

If he asked me that question at a table, I would inform the dealers that he wanted to Lay the Point and they should show him how it was done.

This guy is so typical of people who know nothing about dice control (or advantage-play) but think of themselves as experts. CIII, this post is really important because it shows just what kind of mistaken "experts" are out there.

You are too polite Frank. The guy is a self serving moron.

It’s a Physical Ability, Stupid!

Critics of rhythmic rolling, or rhythm rolling or precision shooting or controlled shooting or dice control or dice influencing (it goes by a host of names) contend that the casinos have set into place measures that make it impossible for players to affect the outcome of their own rolls. The shooter must roll the dice so that they hit the back wall, where foam-rubber pyramids deflect the dice. Effectively randomizing them. In addition, all the bets at the game have a long-run negative expectation when the game is random. These two factors make the game unbeatable.

The critics observations sound good, but upon closer observation, their arguments are specious. First, the foam-rubber pyramids, while formidable (or is that “foam-idable”?), do not preclude a successful rhythmic roll. When we say the dice “must hit the back wall,” there is no rule as to how hard they must do so. A soft delivery system will often see the dice barely touching those pyramids making the randomizing effect much less potent. By setting the dice in certain ways and making such a soft delivery, a player can indeed affect the outcome of his or her rolls.

A critic might just jump in here and say: “Is this just Scoblete’s opinion or is it a fact? Scoblete’s ideas are just wishful thinking.”

It’s a fact. It’s not because I want to believe it is a fact; it is a fact because enough players have now documented their roll based on something called an SRR (Sevns-to-Rolls-Ratio) during thousands and even tens of thousands of casino and practice sessions to show us clearly that, they are able to play with a 1:6.5, 1:7, 1:7.5, and 1:8 (and higher)Sevens-to-Rolls-Ratio. A random game, where the casino has the edge on every bet, is 1:6!

Rhythmic rolling is a fact.

Forward xi
Get the Edge at Craps, Sharpshooter (Author)
(Scoblete Get-The-Edge Guide)

That was a good book. I enjoyed reading it. However if you are really going to tackle controlled shooting or rhythmic rolling I would highly recommend Frank’s "Casino Craps: Shoot to Win!" which is the most complete book on craps and controlled shooting I have read. Then read the amazing book "Cutting Edge Craps" which is a mind blower. In that order by the way.

I believe that these are the books you referred to:

Two great books.

CIII,

I take the time to answer critics on our YouTube Page all the time. My typical response is ‘Shout it from the Heavens! Die Control doesn’t work!"

So when I first saw this, I just didn’t take the time to read something I have read many times before. Let them say what they will, it is better for all of us.

Dominator

Dom is right on. Less engagement the better.

Yes, Dom and Finisher, I also want the word to be out that Dice Control doesn’t work.

Now we have it from the main source, Dominator, in writing!

by Dominator » 15 Jul 2012 09:29
CIII,

I take the time to answer critics on our YouTube Page all the time. My typical response is ‘Shout it from the Heavens! Die Control doesn’t work!"

Like Dom said let them think it doesn’t work, its better for us… Me and Alex took a class in Las Vegas this past June, it paid off the first week. The technique worked so well we bought brand new Omega watches 😀 and had plenty of strip club money. 😆 "You could be the greatest thrower, but if you suck at betting you are bound to lose"

Those who knock knew nothing about it. It’s the way of the world. Personally, I really don’t care if people believe. If you have a winning SRR and/or have passed Smart Craps, you know you have an edge. There is no kidding yourself in this activity.

The SRR and Smart Craps tests are the be-all and end-all of proof. The in-casino results will be there. The critics? Let them carp and moan and try to sell their ideas to the public. The casinos are slowly (or fastly!) realizing that this works. That’s why they tell you it doesn’t work. Thankfully so many dice setters exist that the casinos find it hard to see who does and who doesn’t actually have the skill to beat them.

Just do as I say (and not as I have done) — don’t get greedy at one casino. Once a casino knows that over a period of time you are taking money from them (even a little money) then you could bring some unwanted attention to yourself.

CIII, this was an important post. Thanks for thinking of it. 😀

The more skeptics the better I say.