Skinny, so glad you were able to get this posted. Alligator Rose and I also tried to post it but were unsuccessfuil. I think this will be helpful to many of us on this board. As I practice the "Big Skinny" I may have questions in the future and will post so your answers can be viewed by others.

You are great to share all of your knowledge with the members. On behalf of everyone on this board we thank you.

Doc and Alligator Rose

Thank you Skinny for the post.
Your humility sets you apart.

On a recent trip to Biloxi, I implemented a pass line bet and two come bets with 3, 4, 5 x odds as in Vegas, even though they allow 10 and 20 x odds. I added come bets from the fourth hit on. rather then the third hit. I’ve been working on keeping the losses small in the beginning of the sessions. I did accomplish this. Yes, I did miss out on a couple of hits, but overall a successfull trip.

The Wow Man 😎

Cll I am with you list chart or table you do a great iob to understand what Skinny came up with. The two of you do a GREAT job. Hope to see a post of a trip that you two go on some day. 😀 😀
Good Rolling. 😀

Thanks Skinny, that really helps. After searching the present site and not finding a reference I thought we may have lost it if not for GF.
And thanks CIII, your bullet chart also makes it very easy to absorb.

thank you very much.

Skinny, Alligator Rose and I have been practing the "Big Skinny" betting system at home over the past few days. Have had a situation come up a couple of times and wanted to make sure that I am doing our betting correctly and that I understand how to handle certain situations.

Situation: I make a pass line bet and my point is a 6. I make a come bet and the number an 8. I make another come bet and the number is a 9. I have three bets working–the "net" number of 3 bets I want at risk. I hit the 8 and put the win in the the rail. The 8 comes down. I make a come bet to get a 3rd number.

Now I have two bets working and a come bet. Question, since I have one win in the rail shouldn’t I now continue to make come bets until I get 4 numbers (3 numbers "net" at risk as I have a win in the chip rail)?

On my next roll I hit the 9 for my second win which I put in the chip rail. The 9 is off and on. With two wins , two numbers working (6 and 9) I am now going for 5 numbers since I have 2 wins but only have 2 bets at risk.

Assuming I hit the 9 again (highly unlikely but it actually happened in practice a couple of times) I have 3 wins and will go for all 6 numbers working as I understand the system betting the come each and every roll. At this point I still only have 2 numbers working and 3 wins. Since I have the 3 wins in the chip rail, even if I get to all 6 numbers covered I will only have 3 numbers "net" at risk. A couple of times I have 4,5 or 6 wins in the chip rail before I get to the 4th number through the come line. A good situation and a winner for sure.

Question: am I playing the Big Skinny correctly? It appears so to me.

Hope my explanation is not too confusing.

Rose and I love the system and feel it is great at winning on the short rolls while limiting your exposure on short rolls. Earlier today I had a roll of 8–dont’ remember the exact numbers for all 8 rolls but the wins were something like this. I had 3 bets up then a win on one of the come bets and it came down. Two numbers working. Next I hit my point for my second win–two wins in the chip rail. I then rolled a come out 7 and the 2 remaining come bets came down. I set a point, made a come bet and "BOOM" a nasty old seven again. Two 7’s in 8 rolls for a profit as I had two wins in the chip rail and only the pass line bet up at the time I had the 7 out. I also won the come bet I was making.

Thanks for your time and generousity in sharing your great ideas. So many members of the GTC board share their ideas. This has got to be the greatest craps web site ever.

Alligator Rose and Doc

Nice question Dr. See all of you in June

Dr., I played ‘The Big Skinny’ last year for a couple of months, but went back to passline and 6 & 8. I felt the swings in the bankroll were bigger than I wanted and I was more comfortable playing the 6 & 8.

I had some nice wins but also had some nice rolls and didn’t put and money in the rail. I would get 3 bets working and hit the other 3 numbers I wasn’t playing. The other problem I had was getting 5 or 6 numbers covered and throw a come-out 7.

The casino where I play offers 5x odds. With my bank roll I usually take double odds so instead of adding a place bet I would go to max odds.

We had some $3 craps days last year and I was able to play ‘The Big Skinny" with max odds and push the house because of the $3 line bet.

I have been playing a version of the big skinny i take pass line and three come bets.

If i do not repeat a throw within the first four throws somthing is off so i take the first hit and go back with a new come bet.

If i do repeat a number i leave half the odds on the number and put out a new come bet the rest i go by how the shot feels.

I have had very good success with this.

"Dr Crapology" wrote: Skinny, Alligator Rose and I have been practing the "Big Skinny" betting system at home over the past few days. Have had a situation come up a couple of times and wanted to make sure that I am doing our betting correctly and that I understand how to handle certain situations.

Situation: I make a pass line bet and my point is a 6. I make a come bet and the number an 8. I make another come bet and the number is a 9. I have three bets working–the "net" number of 3 bets I want at risk. I hit the 8 and put the win in the the rail. The 8 comes down. I make a come bet to get a 3rd number.

Now I have two bets working and a come bet. Question, since I have one win in the rail shouldn’t I now continue to make come bets until I get 4 numbers (3 numbers "net" at risk as I have a win in the chip rail)?

The short answer is yes. I will explain more later.

"Dr Crapology" wrote:

On my next roll I hit the 9 for my second win which I put in the chip rail. The 9 is off and on. With two wins , two numbers working (6 and 9) I am now going for 5 numbers since I have 2 wins but only have 2 bets at risk.

That is also correct.

"Dr Crapology" wrote:

Assuming I hit the 9 again (highly unlikely but it actually happened in practice a couple of times) I have 3 wins and will go for all 6 numbers working as I understand the system betting the come each and every roll. At this point I still only have 2 numbers working and 3 wins. Since I have the 3 wins in the chip rail, even if I get to all 6 numbers covered I will only have 3 numbers "net" at risk. A couple of times I have 4,5 or 6 wins in the chip rail before I get to the 4th number through the come line. A good situation and a winner for sure.

Question: am I playing the Big Skinny correctly? It appears so to me.

Most definitely. That is the beauty of the Big Skinny when you are hitting repeat numbers.

You have the basic idea down perfectly Doc. The Big Skinny is both highly aggressive and conservative in limited ways. It contains the amount of money you have at risk so that you never risk more than 3 bets in total on yourself. Plus in the early stages of betting you have the opportunity of risking 2 bets then going down to 1 or risking 3 bets and then going down to 2. If you throw repeaters at those stages, you can be collecting several "off and on" bets while limiting your exposure to very few bets. You cover your net amount at risk, make a profit, are in a position to cover the board, collect on every box number thrown, yet still have a decent profit if the roll only goes for a short duration.

There are a few downsides with the Big Skinny. One is when you get to 3 numbers and then do not hit a repeater for several throws. If you are throwing numbers you do not have you are at your maximum exposure without collecting. It is both frustrating and expensive to have a decent roll but still lose money because you did not throw repeaters. If I feel good about the throw and notice this happening, I sometimes go to a 4th or even 5th number trying to get a hit. Yes it is risky and can be costly. But it is sometimes the best way to get on the numbers I am throwing to start collecting repeaters.

Another downside is the risk you are at until you throw a few repeaters. After 1, 2 and 3 hits you go up to 4, 5 and 6 numbers respectively. But you still have 3 numbers at "net" risk at that point. So if you seven out then you have once again had a decent roll but still lose 3 numbers net. The good news is you can not lose more than 3 numbers worth of bets but the bad news is those 3 numbers worth of bets are exposed for a bit until you get the roll going. This the the aggressive nature of the betting and also the conservative side of it because your risk is limited.

This is essentially what ThomasH was talking about with his experience with playing the Big Skinny. There is no foolproof way of betting that can provide all things for all situations. Any method will have pros and cons. By pointing some of those out here people can decide for themselves if this makes sense for them or not.

I like the variations that folks are discussing because they are using the basic concept and refining it to what they feel works for their bankroll and style of playing. Bman has a good idea that incorporates that very nicely. I like it because you are adapting the concept to what you see happening at the table. His variation takes into consideration the basics of limiting ones net exposure while maximizing ones opportunity to collect on most box numbers thrown.

The Big Skinny works best when you are able to push the house with max odds on 3 unit bets. That is because 2 hits will cover 3 bets on average under those circumstances. With straight odds, be it 1X thru 5X or 3,4,5X you will find that 2 hits do not quite cover 3 bets as well. It comes close but a little bit short whereas pushing the house on 3 unit bets does a better job. That is only a problem when you have 3 bets net at risk. If you are just building up to 3 bets at risk or have made enough hits to cover your 3 bets with a profit than you are out of the "danger" zone.

I hope these answers and caveats help others to have additional insight into the Big Skinny. If you like the idea, I would recommend trying it in practice and getting some experience with it. I worked out a bunch of scenarios with pencil and paper to see how it worked for me with what I would be betting and where I would be betting. When I played in places that had different odds than I was used to in AC, I had to work out again how I would be using my progressions. But I kept the basic concept in mind and varied the betting a bit depending on what odds would be at the places I would be playing. I was not prepared for this the first time I was in a casino that did not have 5X odds because that is what I was used to playing. I came up with some variations "on the fly" and then worked it out with pencil and paper that evening once I knew what I was dealing with. From then on I always worked out what I would do in advance when I went to a different venue. I hope this advice helps others avoid some of the pitfalls I ran into so that you can benefit from my experience.

Skinny Doc gave a couple of primers my number and we hooked up, there betting was all over the place at times but, the last time we hooked up one of them could not get there spot so they played next to me they felt comfortable enuff to come bet they never got over two bets working on a long roll.

Now by the end of the roll after i sevened out i asked them so did i show ou two things one that the throw is possible they said yes.

Two you can make very good money with limited come bets , there answer yes with a great big smile,
it did not hurt that i killed the 8and9 either.

These two students had very advanced throws for primers i hope they come back for tuneups in octber, they have the goods just need a little guidance.

i also think the pai gow class would be great for them, and any out of towner because they love to play it would give them a second low edge game that is not tireing to play and allows the body to rest which is very important to all players, i see far to many who play for hours and lose it.

Thank you skinny it has taken me along time to find a come betting patteren that i am comfortable with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Skinny,

I have a question for you regarding your betting strategy in this post.

The set up is this: I am playing in a casino in Vegas where the odds are 3X,4X,5X and I am betting the table minimum flat bet with full odds on my Pass and Come bets. At what point in number of hits won should I increase the flat portion of my Pass or Come bet so I can get more money in odds on to the table?

I am really enjoying this thread and learning a lot of betting strategy so thanks for posting and all of your answers to questions! 😎

Getagrip Hi how are you doing ? Are you still out of country ?
I was next to a guy that would use a 1.00 increase on his line bet for every point made. That way he could increase his odds bet but did it to keep track of how many points have been made.Just a thought also I heard there is some place that has 1000 x odds so you may want to try it.
Hope to roll again with you and Susie . It was a lot of fun.
Good Rolling. 😀

Finisher, the 1000 times odds is the Riveria on the Vegas Strip.

Doc

GetaGrip, as to when or if you should raise your base come/pass line bet to increase the odds on a 3,4,5 table here is what I have done in practice. The Big Skinny is new to me and I have not been to a casino since I started experimenting with it.

Once I have I have 8 wins in the chip rail (as mentioned in Skinny’s post) here is what I do: I double my come/pass line bet so I can double my odds. If I keep hitting one number with the doubled base bet with full odds I will place it in addition to the come/pass line bet. If I get at least 5 numbers covered with this doubled pass line/come bet with full odds, I again double my base bet so I can again double my odds. If I have placed a number prior to doubling my odds I will move some of the place bet to odds on that number to lower the casino vig.

Skinny—please make any corrections that you see in what I have been doing on these presses.

Doc

GetaGrip,

Dr. Crapology is correct.

After 8 hits it is time to put more money on the table. You can do this either by adding place bets or by doubling your base bet so that you can double the odds.

Here is how it works out with the situation you described, ie. minimum pass/come flat bet with 3-4-5X odds on the 4/10-5/9-6/8 respectively. I can translate all this to units so that anyone can translate this into any type of flat bet they want to consider.

When you start out with 3 bets you will have an average of 15 units on the table. In other words if you have a point of 4 with come bets on the 5 and 6 you have 1 unit on each flat bet with 3,4 and 5 units in odds. That adds up to 15 units on the table.

Each hit pays exactly 7 units. So after 1 hit you can go to 4 bets and still have approximately 15 units at risk. After 2 hits you can go to 4 numbers and still have approximately 15 units at risk. After 3 hits you can go to covering all 6 numbers for a total of 30 units. You have collected 21 units with 3 hits so you will now have a total of 9 units at risk.

When you collect 8 hits you will have put 56 units (7 X 8 units) in your rails with 30 units on the table plus 1 unit in the come. Since you will collect the last come when you seven out, the last come bet is not really at risk. You will have a net profit of 26 units at this point. You can take another hit if you want to have more in the rails in profit than you have on the table or you can be aggressive and be satisfied with the 26 unit profit for now because you will be making a small profit each time you double one of your bets. In the latter case you should double your next line bet as the Doc said. The money you collect on the next hit can be used to put up full odds on that number without taking any money out of your rails. Let us see how this works in practice.

You have a point of 4 with 3 units behind the pass line 1 unit flat bet. The other 5 numbers have 1 unit with full odds. You just put out 2 units for your come bet and say you throw a 5. You collect 7 units for the hit and your come bet with 5 units (1 flat + 4 odds) comes down. You hand in 8 units in odds to cover the 2 unit flat bet and put out another 2 unit come bet. You collected 12 units and put out twelve units. Nothing came out of your rails, the hit covered your doubled come bet and doubled odds.

Now say you throw a 6. You collect 7 units for the hit and your come bet with 6 units comes down for a win of 13 units. You put back 10 units in odds and 2 units for the new come. 1 unit goes in your rails as profit. If you continue to throw every other number in order 8,9 and 10. You will collect 21 units for the 3 hits plus 15 units coming down from the single unit come bets collecting a total of 36 units. You will put 30 units back on the table for flat bets plus odds and get to put 6 more units in your rails for profit. To complete all the numbers you now hit the 4. You collect 7 units plus 4 coming down and put back up 8 units on the 4 and 2 units on the pass line for the new come out roll. When you establish a new point number you collect 2 units for hitting the working flat portion of the come bet and the odds from the come go behind the pass line.

At this point you will have doubled all your box number flat bets with doubled odds and will have a net profit of 36 units in your rails. You now have 60 units on the table so we want to have additional hits to cover the new bets we put up on the table before we double our bets again. Each hit at this point pays 14 units. 2 hits will cover the new money you put out on the table and 2 more hits will give you an additional profit equal to approximately the amount you put out on the table. So after 4 more hits on the doubled bets you can start the process all over again and double all your come bets to 4 units.

After 4 hits on the doubled numbers you will have 60 units on the tables and should have taken in approximately 62 net units in profits.

To put this into dollar amount. If you start with $10 pass/come bets with $30/40/50 in odds you would have started with an approximate $150 at risk with 3 numbers covered. At this point with all bets doubled, you would have $620 on the table with a net profit of $620 in your rails. That takes into account the $620 on the table because you collected $560 with the first 8 hits (8 X $70), made an additional profit of $120 when you doubled all your wagers, then collected $560 with the next 4 doubled hits (4 X $140). That adds up to a total of $1240 collected with $620 on the table for a net profit of $620.

I am taking you through all this to show all the numbers to those who want to follow it closely. If you just want the basics do what Dr. Crapology summarized.

After 8 wins in the chip rail double your come/pass line bet and take full 3-4-5X odds which will double what was there before.

After 4 wins of the doubled bets, double your come/pass line bets again.

If you notice you are hitting one number quite frequently before you start doubling your bets you can add that win as a place bet on that number to get more money on that number early. Do not count that as a hit. But if you hit that number in the future count it as 2 hits because you are collecting on the come and place bet.

Does this help answer the question?

Skinny What about the crap numbers that show up how do you deal with them ?
Good Rolling. 😀
I will try come betting again .But in an earlier post I told how I was rolling at a table and was the only come better and both the pass and dp players loved my roll. The bad thing was I was the one that was not to happy. I was rolling 3 numbers then have a come out 7 which made the DP happy and the pass was off for a win also. After doing this 3 times I did start to bet the 7 to get money back on my come bets for a win. But in the end I made less then all the other players there even the DP player who even started talking to ever body about how good of a roll it was. I have not played the come that way since but use place bets and come bets instead.
I may try it again but I did notice that not many players make come bets.
O I did not put back my come bets the first time I bet the 7 and won so did miss 3 more wins that if I had put them back I would of hit.But the 2nd and 3rd time I did put them back so did make money then.
Even the dealers said that every body but me was making money on my roll.They were happy to see me win when I put my come bets back up from the win on the 7.
Some times I feel that Murfie"s law is there when I am rolling.
I tell some people just to bet on what I don’t bet on and they will win. LOL
Good Rolling. 😀

Finisher, I too see a lot of place betters who do not make come bets. They won’t make a pass line bet but place it as soon as the point is set. Go figure.

Here is what I hear from them:

1. They say "You have to make the come bet twice to have a win. It doesn’t make sense to me to have to make the number twice to win. Place betting is best for me."
I usually shrug my shoulders and play my game at that table or move on. These players who are less than educated on the game of craps, do not understand the power of the come out 7–2 to 1 for chance for a small win. They also have no idea of the higher casino vig on placing the outside numbers.

2. I also see these same players always playing all 6 box numbers after the point is set–this of course includes the point. They don’t realize that they are playing 6 games at once and it takes 5 or 6 hits (depending on the numbers hit) to break even. The Big Skinny keeps your exposure to 3 bets.

3. They also say "I don’t make come bets becuase after a point is made and a come out 7 is rolled you lose all of your come bets." As we know this is not entirely true as the odds part of the come bets at returned–a minor lose in the long tun. As Billy The Kid says "that come out seven may just be the indication of what is to come"—in other words another quick 7. Their place bets are still up and they lose all of them with the next 7. I may lose only 1 or 2 bets as I am starting the Big Skinny all over again.

These jokers may make a bundle on a long roll in the short run but they will lose these a** in the long run. Heck, even a monkey can win money on a long run no matter which numbers he puts his chips on. Always remember we are playing for the long run. We want the house advantage (HA) as low as possible as all times.

I have had some chicken feeders make money on a ramdon roller and I did not. and they comment on my five count and the fact that I only made one come bet with minimum odds. Then the next 5 or 6 CR’ers have quick 7 outs. I lose nothing and they lose all of that profit plus some extra.

Remember we must be patient and try and make our money on ourselves or other controlled shooters that we know and trust.

Just my $.02 worth.

Doc

CIII, I was referring to the chicken feeders not GTC students and members of this board. The come betting works for me and I am sure that place betting works for you. Just an honest difference of opinion. I do make some place bets from time to time during a really good roll with a nice profit in the chip rail.

I assure you that I did not intend to insult hyou or anyone on this board.

Hope to meet you in the casino soon.

Doc

I didn’t see where he was coming from to begin with. Knew exactly where you were aiming the remarks. Thin skin

Any time

"Finisher" wrote: Skinny What about the crap numbers that show up how do you deal with them ?
Good Rolling. 😀
I will try come betting again .But in an earlier post I told how I was rolling at a table and was the only come better and both the pass and dp players loved my roll. The bad thing was I was the one that was not to happy. I was rolling 3 numbers then have a come out 7 which made the DP happy and the pass was off for a win also. After doing this 3 times I did start to bet the 7 to get money back on my come bets for a win. But in the end I made less then all the other players there even the DP player who even started talking to ever body about how good of a roll it was. I have not played the come that way since but use place bets and come bets instead.
I may try it again but I did notice that not many players make come bets.
O I did not put back my come bets the first time I bet the 7 and won so did miss 3 more wins that if I had put them back I would of hit.But the 2nd and 3rd time I did put them back so did make money then.
Even the dealers said that every body but me was making money on my roll.They were happy to see me win when I put my come bets back up from the win on the 7.
Some times I feel that Murfie"s law is there when I am rolling.
I tell some people just to bet on what I don’t bet on and they will win. LOL
Good Rolling. 😀

I would like to bring this thread back to my original post. Finisher had a question and I have some comments on his other points in addition to the answer to his question.

As for craps numbers they will cause you to lose your come wager. In that case I put up another come bet. If you are losing too much money on craps numbers you are not controlling the dice sufficiently and should consider ending the present session. Figure out why your shot is off by that much. Are you tired? Are you doing something wrong that you can try to correct in your room if you are staying overnight? If you are on a day trip, maybe you should go home and work it out in practice? But if you are only tired then a break could be all you need to come back fresh and relaxed.

In other words, craps numbers will cost you a come wager but will not lose a place wager. But that does not make craps numbers acceptable. Just because you do not lose your place bet does not mean you are doing OK. When you throw a lot of craps numbers your shot is off and it is only a matter of time before you seven out. Every craps number has at least one die off axis. You may be avoiding the seven but you are not controlling the dice very well.

The rest of your post relates to come betting vs. place bets. I am not trying to encourage anyone to become a come bettor. Both are valid ways to wager as long as you are sticking with low HA wagers. I am only presenting a method with the rationale for that method for people to consider. I suggested using it in practice and working out a style of wagering consistent with the principles of the Big Skinny that match you as an individual.

There is no betting strategy that can work under all conditions. But if you are familiar with your own individual skills and tendencies you can match a method to yourself that works for you the majority of the time.

I use the Big Skinny on myself because it matches my tendencies with controlling the dice, the set I use, my bankroll, my tolerance for risk and the odds at the places I most often play. I do not use the Big Skinny in all circumstances. I believe I already said, I will use place bets when I wager on other controlled shooters who like to set for the seven on the come out roll. On the original post that was on the old message board, I said that I place the 6 and 8 when Frank is shooting because he uses the 3V set and is very consistent in rolling the 6 and often the 8. When he is really focused on the 6, I will increase my place wager on that number much more aggressively than on the 8.

None of anything I have said in this post applies to random rollers. I am talking strictly about controlled shooters and mostly only those whose style you know.

The Big Skinny is pretty aggressive. I am putting it out here for those interested in increasing their profits who may be too conservative. But it requires the ability to throw repeating numbers. I have given the pros and cons of this method. Others have discussed their positive and negative experience with it as well. It is not a panacea.

Skinny, you really hit one nail on the head. "No system of betting can over come the house edge." It can’t. Come betting suits some people and place betting other people, if they place the low house place bets.

Thank you for all of your input on this threat.

Doc

Your last sentence says it all. "This works for me even though I am losing."

Doc

Hey Skinny,

Thanks for posting how the Big Skinny works with "unit" bet information. That explanation made everything much clearer for me.

You are a kind and patient man! Thanks again! 🙂

"Franken" wrote: I use a field betting progressive bet. If I hit one I let it ride. On two I take down half my bet. If I lose the first bet I will then double my bet for three tries. If I lose all three tries I quit on that shooter. This works for me even though I am losing at craps.

Glory Be …. You admit your a LOSER … now we agree on something 😆 😆 😆

Weird…tried to post a reply, and it just disappeared into cyber space before I was through typing. Anyway, I’ll try again. Used your method tonight with what I would call mixed results. Initially, I had two rolls under 10. Both times I sevened out with 4 numbers on the board. At $10/unit and 3,4,5x odds, I probably got into a $180 – $200 hole at the outset. The next hand was a 17. I made all the money back plus got up about $100. I have to say that it is quite pleasant when you have all 6 numbers covered and are off and on to $70 per hit…

A couple of observations and maybe a question or two at the same time:

If you have been nailed early, like I was in the example, do you still begin progression after 8 hits or is the better strategy to rack a few more hits until your bankroll is back…or do you just ignore prior BR damage and stick to the 8 hits come hell or high water? Everyone knows you don’t usually just walk up to a table and reel off a thirty roll hand right out of the box…well…maybe you do it everytime, but I know I don’t.

A point to be made here is that this is not a strategy you can stick to for long if you or anyone else you’re betting on is laying eggs within 5 – 7 rolls…and we have all had sessions like that. IMO, you’d want to make maybe 3 – 5 losing runs and then walk….no matter what. 4 or 5 times worth of 3 numbers posted and 7 out could be devastating. So…seems like discipline in all caps is a watchword with such an aggressive strategy. It seems to be much better, of course, than placing all the numbers across and hoping for 8 or 10 straight hits. You do limit your per hand losses on early 7 outs with this method.

Another question: What would be wrong with just increasing your flat bet once you’ve gotten to permanent ‘off and on’ rather than double parking? In other words, if I’m a $10 unit bettor, once I’ve got the rack going and I’m on all six numbers, why not go to $25 come bets and try to replace all the numbers with $25/unit/full odds bets, racking the repeaters at the higher amount but replacing $10 numbers with $25/full odds numbers until you’re up to six again at the $25 level, then go to $50/unit and so forth? You’re still cashing in on made numbers at a much higher amount ($25/unit bets will full odds are paying $175 per hit, for example rather than the $70/hit at $10). At worst, it seems that either method accomplishes the same objective.

Appreciate the strategy, and I intend to play it a lot until I get a real good idea as to how it works over both good and bad practice sessions.

Alamo

Great questions AlamoTx,

I will try to answer as best I can. One question comes to mind as I am reading what you wrote. What are we comparing this to? In other words are you usually doing $10 PL with full odds at 3-4-5X plus two $60 place bets on the 6 and 8? Because that would average out to around $160 as an initial amount at risk. Doing the Big Skinny with $10 on the line and 3-4-5X odds comes to around $150 initial amount at risk. In either situation if you seven out with two low rolls early it seems you are going to be in the hole to the tune of around the same $180 – $200 at the outset.

But if your normal initial amount at risk is around $110, say $10 PL with odds plus $30 place bets on the 6 and 8 then you should be doing the Big Skinny for less in odds to get to your regular betting risk. Start off with $10 line bets and only double or triple odds. Work out the odds so that you are not risking more than you usually do. Then increase the odds to full once you make a sufficient profit. Don’t play the Big Skinny for more money than your standard initial amount at risk until you get up to that level and are comfortable playing there. Betting more than you are used to will cause you to press and throw off your game. You need to be within your BR, 401-G and tolerance for risk.

Having said that, I agree you are at risk when you have 3 – 6 bets out there and have only 1 – 3 hits. That is because that is when you are fully exposed with your 3 wagers at risk and have not collected enough to make a profit. I find it does not happen a lot that I have all the numbers covered with only 3 hits. I usually throw a few more repeaters on the way to covering all 6 numbers so that when I get the board covered I have either made 4 hits which roughly covers my 6 bets or I have a few more hits so that I have a profit. But it does get scary when I get up on 6 numbers with only 3 hits. A seven out at that point costs me a little money plus it is probably a low teen roll that cost me money instead of making a profit.

If you get nailed early and are in a bit of a hole, I think it is OK to rack up an extra hit or 2 before going to the next progression. But beyond that you are probably costing yourself money by not progressing your wagers. You will feel better by filling up the rails to cover some of the early losses and that is important for your peace of mind. In those situations it becomes a balancing act. Collect a bit to replenish the losses but not too much or you defeat what you are trying to accomplish.

I agree with walking if you have 3 – 5 losing runs. But then after that many turns with the dice you should be walking anyhow. Fatigue sets in with too many turns with the dice and you only want to be throwing when you are fresh, not tired. Yes you will lose 3 numbers if you are not throwing well. But I have to ask once again what you are comparing it to? Don’t you also lose with any method if you are not throwing well?

I think some of the strength here is as you said, you limit your losses on early seven outs. Then you also progress aggressively and make decent profits with 10+ to 20+ hands. You are at risk if you are not throwing repeaters in the 5 – 10 range hands.

As for increasing your flat bet rather than double parking it works pretty well with 3-4-5X odds. The amount you win plus the come bet with odds that comes down because you increased the flat bet is just about the amount you need to cover the increased flat bet with odds. With $10 flat bet and all the numbers covered you will have $300 on the table at max 3-4-5X odds. Collecting $70 on each number brings in $420 if you hit each of the 6 box numbers. That totals $720. If you go to $25 flat with full 3-4-5X odds you will put $750 on the table when you cover all 6 numbers. So you don’t have to risk your profit to go to the increased amount.

When I first experimented with different methods I used to do exactly that. But then I found a couple ot things happening in the real world that caused me to come up with adding the place bet instead. Often I would get to 8 hits with only 3 or 4 numbers on the board because I was throwing several repeating numbers and had not thrown all 6 numbers when it was time to start my progression. Then when I threw a number I did not throw before, I would have to fund the flat bet and odds out of my rails. There was no hit and no come bet coming down to fund the new number. I did not like going into my profit to fund the new number so I would need an extra hit or two to cover the amount I just put back out on the table. But at that point each hit was a replacement of the one unit flat bet with a two unit flat bet. So I needed a hit on one of the doubled flat bets in order to cover the amount I put up on the table from my rails.

The other thing I noticed is I could not take advantage if I were repeating one or two numbers a lot with this method. Let us say for example I have the inside numbers covered but I have not thrown a single 4 or 10. Let us say I hit the 6 four times, the 8 three times and the 9 one time. In that case I might want to place the 6 with my next hit, then the 8 with the next hit after that unless the hit was a 6. From there on I might want to do a press and pull on the 6 and 8 each time I hit a 6 or 8 because that is what I am throwing on this roll. If I went to a double unit flat bet instead I would not be able to go up on the 6 or 8.

So when I am throwing I tend to use the place bets once I start progressing. I do that for the reason above plus I am able to control the pace of the game since I am the shooter. Some dealers have trouble with the double bets (come and place). As the shooter I can be sure I get paid properly without interrupting the game because I control the dice. When betting on someone else, I may just go to the doubled flat bet with full odds because that is easier for the dealers to handle. It depends on the crew that is dealing the game. If they are experienced, they have no problems with the place and come.

Let me know if this answers your questions and maybe some you did not ask 🙂 If you have other questions or are not clear about any of this I am happy to try again. But whatever you decide, keep trying it in practice to get comfortable with it and so that you can experience how it goes. Plus you may come up with things I have not covered and seeing it for yourself in practice is better than reading it here.

Skinny – Thanks for the quick response. It’s funny but I had just my second session with your method, this morning and experienced exactly what you talked about re the double parking on repeating numbers. With 4 tries, I had mixed results and was down slightly. On the 5th hand, I had 19 rolls. During that time, I only managed to get on 4 numbers, because I kept getting off and on, which adds nicely to the rack, BTW…by hit number 8, I had recovered my bankroll and then some. Before I hit a repeater with hit number 9, I sevened out with $294 in profit. I am betting with $10/unit and 3, 4, 5x odds. Up until now, I have been a $5 player, but I’ve increased my BR sufficiently to allow me to move to $10 units. Am I mentally ready for the increase, I don’t know. I think 100 or so practice sessions without seeing really disastrous results will help me move up in real play. I could ‘afford’ to be a $25 player, but a lot of it is mental and confidence. At some point, it seems you’ve got to move up for there to be any meaningful profits. But…I digress.

When I got to hit number 8 and could not seem to get the last two numbers covered, the light went on in my dense brain. It’s nice to keep collecting $70, but, by double parking I saw that I could be collecting $140 for each repeater once it’s double parked. That adds up pretty fast, even if you just repeat the double parked number two more times. So, I get it. Could have turned $294 into about $700 pretty quickly. I suppose the idea of increasing the flat bet to $25 wouldn’t come up often, but I would think you wouldn’t go there until all six numbers were in play anyway. I guess also that increasing the place bet after every few hits allows you to capture more profits, but I hate to be locked into the $10 unit, $70 pay on the come bets for too long. Realistically though, you’re probably in the 30 + range by the time you have to make those decisions, and we all know the beatch always comes calling in the final analysis.

The come out 7 is a real quandry. Happened this morning when I had the 6, 5 and 10 covered and made the point (the 6). Next roll was a 7 so the odds came down off the 5 and 10. I put them both back up at $50 each, which might have been slightly high. Made it to 4 numbers and repeated x2 but not the 5 and 10 before I sevened out after about 10 rolls. No real damage, but it was a difficult decision to make as to how much to replace the wiped out come numbers with.

Going to run this in practice a few dozens of times, to get the nuances. I can see where this could be really a hindrance to your concentration on a full table with a lot of bets out there. I would be interested in knowing how you count the repeats on each number without having a confusing stack of chips on the table. Do you line up singles to correspond to each box number you have and just add one each time it hits, so you can tell immediately if its time to increase a particular number? Is there a separate way to count the total number of hits, or do you stop doing that after 9 and concentrate only on the repeating box numbers? And…how in hell do you count your total rolls in the hand, all at the same time? Or do you just blow off knowing how long your roll was? Can’t get in the 40+ clubl without counting : )

And…could you do this same thing with one passline and two come bets intially rather than the three so that on hit number one you go to 3 numbers; hit #2 you go to 4 ; hit 3 = 5 and hit 4 = six? I can see that you’d take a little longer to get the board covered, but it seems the same rules would apply and you’d have less out there early?….

Much appreciated. This method is a lot more participatory (action ) than having one point out there for 5 rolls and then adding a second come bet etc.

Alamo

AlamoTx ask

And…how in hell do you count your total rolls in the hand, all at the same time? Or do you just blow off knowing how long your roll was? Can’t get in the 40+ clubl without counting : )

Several years back I thought about counting my throws so I too could have my name displayed along with all the hundreds of other names in the honor rolls. But I found it more of a distraction than it was worth. I now rely on my playing partners to do the counting for me, if they choose. In short I could care less whether I threw a 6 or a 60 as long as the bankroll is swelling. Yes I still have a good feeling when one of he guys says that was a 32 or 23 or whatever but my name alone on the rolls pays nothing, no checks, no comps nothing other than bragging rights.

I have one listing, or should, from a 40 hand Doc reported for me. He counted it, I knew it was getting up there but had no idea. I was having too much fun hitting numbers and seeing the chip rail fill up.

Well said. Couldn’t agree with you more philosopically.

AlamoTx,

You have covered a lot of ground here. Sounds like you are making good progress and I want to give you the benefit of my experience. It has taken a while to get my thoughts around all of this. But I will try to respond to everything you have asked.

"AlamoTx" wrote:
Skinny – Thanks for the quick response. It’s funny but I had just my second session with your method, this morning and experienced exactly what you talked about re the double parking on repeating numbers. With 4 tries, I had mixed results and was down slightly. On the 5th hand, I had 19 rolls. During that time, I only managed to get on 4 numbers, because I kept getting off and on, which adds nicely to the rack, BTW…by hit number 8, I had recovered my bankroll and then some. Before I hit a repeater with hit number 9, I sevened out with $294 in profit. I am betting with $10/unit and 3, 4, 5x odds. Up until now, I have been a $5 player, but I’ve increased my BR sufficiently to allow me to move to $10 units. Am I mentally ready for the increase, I don’t know. I think 100 or so practice sessions without seeing really disastrous results will help me move up in real play. I could ‘afford’ to be a $25 player, but a lot of it is mental and confidence. At some point, it seems you’ve got to move up for there to be any meaningful profits. But…I digress.

When I got to hit number 8 and could not seem to get the last two numbers covered, the light went on in my dense brain. It’s nice to keep collecting $70, but, by double parking I saw that I could be collecting $140 for each repeater once it’s double parked. That adds up pretty fast, even if you just repeat the double parked number two more times. So, I get it. Could have turned $294 into about $700 pretty quickly. I suppose the idea of increasing the flat bet to $25 wouldn’t come up often, but I would think you wouldn’t go there until all six numbers were in play anyway. I guess also that increasing the place bet after every few hits allows you to capture more profits, but I hate to be locked into the $10 unit, $70 pay on the come bets for too long. Realistically though, you’re probably in the 30 + range by the time you have to make those decisions, and we all know the beatch always comes calling in the final analysis.

This is good. It sounds like you are starting to understand and see the strength of this when it is working.

You reminded me of a 17 hand I had not too long ago that went something like the following: 4 (point established), 6, 6, 6, 8, 11, 8, 6, 4 (point winner), 10 (new point established), 6, 4 (7th hit – place the 6 with the winnings), 6 (1st double hit), 6 (2nd double hit), 8 (place the 8 with the winnings), 11, 7 out.

After six hits I had four hits on the 6, one hit on the 4 and one hit on the 8. At that point I was up on 4 numbers and I decided I wanted to double park the 6 with my next hit because I was hitting the 6 pretty well and I was ahead at least double the money I had on the table so far. Three hits is more than enough to match what was on the table and the other three hits are profit. As long as I did not throw a 5 or 9 I would have doubled my money for a 100% profit at this point. But I was not going to double park any other numbers until I had a net of eight hits in my rails. The next hit on the 6 accomplished that. I had a net of six hits when I double parked the 6. The next roll of 6 gave me a double hit, bringing me to a net total of eight hits. At that point I was going to double park any number not double parked and take the double hits as profit. After four double hits, I was going to increase my progression again but I did not get that far. If I threw a 5 or 9, it would be an additional number for me but it was already covered with the eight hits I had made. It would come out of my rails but I had already made the money to cover it.

As it was I sevened out before getting to that point. So I made some additional profit with my two double parked hits on the 6 when I double parked the 6 early. Since I did not get up on the 5 and 9, I had a profit on those numbers as well because they were already funded with profit from my eight hits, but not spent.

This shows you the strength of double parking. It is rare for me to double park early. I want a profit before putting new money at risk. But when a roll warrants it, the payoff can be good.

"AlamoTx" wrote:
The come out 7 is a real quandry. Happened this morning when I had the 6, 5 and 10 covered and made the point (the 6). Next roll was a 7 so the odds came down off the 5 and 10. I put them both back up at $50 each, which might have been slightly high. Made it to 4 numbers and repeated x2 but not the 5 and 10 before I sevened out after about 10 rolls. No real damage, but it was a difficult decision to make as to how much to replace the wiped out come numbers with.

If the 6 was your first hit, I would not have put money back on the 5 and 10. I would have started the roll all over again with one hit in my rails. There is no evidence you are going to be throwing 5’s and 10’s on this roll since you only threw them once before the come out 7. You only have one hit in your rails so you don’t have enough of a profit to warrant putting money on the table from your rails. When I throw an early come out 7, I treat it as a new roll that is just beginning. I am happy to have a hit or two in my rails. But I don’t want to risk any money on the tables until a roll has developed and I know my throw is working on that roll.

If I have four hits or more in my rails and I am happy with the way I am throwing on that roll, I may then put some money back up on the table in the form of place bets. I usually put about 1/2 of the amount I am getting back in odds up with place bets on numbers that I think I am hitting. That way I am still putting some money back in my rails to fund the new numbers I throw without having to use any of the four hit profit. If the roll ends quickly, I want to walk away with a profit and not leave everything on the table. Sure if the roll extends, I lost a little bit by not putting it on the table early. But if the roll extends you are going to make a nice profit anyhow. It is better to protect what you have on the short rolls.

If I had six or more hits then I might be willing to put more back up on the table because I am getting close to double parking.

Here are three specific examples to show I would handle it using your bets of $10 PL with max 3-4-5X odds.

EX. 1 – Point 4, up on numbers 5, 6, 10. Total of four hits made up of two hits on the 6, one on the 5 and you made the point of 4 for your fourth hit, then a come out 7. You lose $30 come (flat) bets on the 5, 6, 10 and get back $110 in odds plus $10 pass line winner. I would probably just place the 6 for $30 and put the other $80 in my rails. If I throw a 6 early before I get any new hits, I would take it down, putting $5 in my rails and using $50 for my odds and $10 for the next come bet. If I get two or more hits before establishing the 6, I might handle it differently. With six or more hits in my rails, I might be willing to double park the 6 early. In that case, I might press the 6 to $60 and fund the odds on the come bet from my rails, double parking the 6.

EX. 2 – Point 4, up on numbers, 5, 6 10. Total of six hits made up of four hits on the 6, one on the 5 and you made the point of 4 for your sixth hit, then a come out 7. You lose $30 come (flat) bets on the 5, 6, 10 and get back $110 in odds plus $10 pass line winner. In this case I would place the 6 for $60 and put the other $50 in my rails. If I throw a 6 early before I get any new hits, I would leave it up, collecting $70 and double parking the 6 early. $50 stays on the table in odds, $10 goes in my rails, and $10 on the table for the next come bet.

EX. 3 – Point 4, up on numbers, 5, 6, 8 and 10. Total of eight hits made up of four hits on the 6, two on the 8, one on the 5 and you made the point of 4 for your eighth hit, then a come out 7. You lose $40 come (flat) bets on the 5, 6, 8, 10 and get back $160 in odds plus $10 pass line winner. In this case I was going to start double parking after my eighth hit. So I am willing to leave a bit more on the table because I have a good profit, the roll has been going well and I am ready to start double parking. I would place the 6 and 8 for $60 each put the other $40 in my rails. I have my eight hits to cover the money I am leaving on the table so I am well ahead on this roll and it may extend. When I throw a 6 or 8, I will leave the place bet up on the number so that it is double parked. When I throw different box numbers, I will double park them when I get the next hit on that other number.

Yes, the come out 7 is a quandary. You need to use some judgement in deciding how to handle them. Use your own experience and ideas to figure them out. But hopefully, these suggestions will give you some ideas for them.

"AlamoTx" wrote:
Going to run this in practice a few dozens of times, to get the nuances. I can see where this could be really a hindrance to your concentration on a full table with a lot of bets out there. I would be interested in knowing how you count the repeats on each number without having a confusing stack of chips on the table. Do you line up singles to correspond to each box number you have and just add one each time it hits, so you can tell immediately if its time to increase a particular number? Is there a separate way to count the total number of hits, or do you stop doing that after 9 and concentrate only on the repeating box numbers? And…how in hell do you count your total rolls in the hand, all at the same time? Or do you just blow off knowing how long your roll was? Can’t get in the 40+ clubl without counting : )

I use the bottom rail to count the hits and repeats. My betting and winning chips are all in my top rail. I lay a single chip, positionally in the bottom rail for every hit. I stack up multiple hits on the same number so that I can easily see when I am repeating numbers. I put a single chip in the far left position laying flat for a hit on the 4, a single chip to the right of it for a hit on the 5, and so forth with a single chip on the far right for a hit on the 10.

After eight hits, I put the chips back in the top rail and start all over counting my double parked hits in the same manner. At that point, I know if I am hitting any repeating numbers and take action based on what I decide to do about it if anything.

If I decide to go to a press and pull on a double parked number (because I am really hitting a specific number) I will use a larger denomination chip for a pull and a smaller one for a press. That way I know what to do on the next hit and don’t have to remember it in my head.

Stephen C already told you how to handle the total rolls. I agree with him completely.

"AlamoTx" wrote:
And…could you do this same thing with one passline and two come bets intially rather than the three so that on hit number one you go to 3 numbers; hit #2 you go to 4 ; hit 3 = 5 and hit 4 = six? I can see that you’d take a little longer to get the board covered, but it seems the same rules would apply and you’d have less out there early?….

Much appreciated. This method is a lot more participatory (action ) than having one point out there for 5 rolls and then adding a second come bet etc.

Alamo

I don’t understand the question. The basic principle IS to start with one pass line and two come bets for a total of 3 numbers.

But you should modify it any way you want so that it fits in with your BR, 401-G and tolerance for risk.

I am not advising any one to follow this method. I am only putting it out there as a reasonably aggressive way of wagering with some limits and controls to provide some elements of risk control with an aggressive style. No method is foolproof and you need to use judgement and knowledge of your own game to be successful.

Diligent practice to develop a consistent throw is a given. After that one needs to be judicious in your bets. Skill in throwing and wagering is a requirement for winning "Because Winning is the Most Fun".

Goldfinger and JBW have been playing the "big skinny" since it arrived on the site. Being adventurous souls they now play a sightly modified (read more conservative) version and I’ll leave Goldfinger to explain it if he cares to. They have been having big success with it especially with the modification. Stephen C is learning it from them as well. As for me, I follow Stickman’s up a unit with very good success. I rarely press or increase my bets until I have recaptured my initial bets. At practice I sometimes start with $30 6 and 8 and up a base unit ($6) and a couple times came out better than the modified big skinny. When I am struggling either in practice or at a casino I sometimes employ the initial steep regression strategy with some success especially with short hands in the 4 to 8 roll range. All in all I still believe that betting into "your" advantage is the way to bet regardless of which betting strategy you choose.

OneMoonCircles

Skinny – So far all I can say is that this thing is freaking incredible as I will explain in a minute. On my last post, I misstated myself. What I meant was: Could you, instead of starting with 3 bets on the table, start with 1 passline and 1 come bet (2 numbers total rather than 3); go to 3 total numbers on the first hit; 4 on the 2d hit, 5 on the third hit and 6 on the fourth? The thought occurs to me that with one pass and one come, you’re chances of hitting one of your numbers is a bit less than with three numbers out there early, but the idea seems similar and reduces your BR exposure by $40 – $60 depending on the number being covered. Just a thought. Of course, the thought also occurs to me that you should use $5 unit bets and go to three numbers if you don’t have the cajones for 3 numbers at $10. For me, it’s mental, and I’ve got to get used to having more at risk if I want to win more.

Now…for results so far. I’ve played 9 games over the last several days and have had 2 that were losers where I quit playing after 4 – 5 tries and limited the table stake loss to $300 or less regardless of the number of tries. The other 7 games were winners with the smallest being $242 on a 20 roll hand. The fun part was the 54 roll hand I had a couple of days ago where I had to make two come-out 7 decisions in the midst of it. When I finally had all my replacement place bets covered by new come bets and had 6 $10 unit numbers in play, I went to $25 come bets and got all six of the box numbers covered before sevening out. None of the larger bets repeated more than 3 times, but the majority did repeat 3 times and it was great moving $175 pay outs to the rack repeatedly. At almost $200 a pop, it adds quickly to what you’ve already won before progressing. That hand netted me $2367, using $10 unit bets! Freaking incredible. Light switch goes on: The beauty of this method is that it allows you to get all of the numbers working. My old method was to max at 3 numbers and then try to repeat and press 3 numbers (rather than six). But, I can’t tell you how many times that method resulted in mediocre wins even with rolls in the high 30s. I would hit everything except what I had. Using TBS (The Big Skinny), I also had a 19 roll hand that netted $294. This is good stuff and much appreciated. I will also be experimenting with double parking versus increasing my flat bet size. It seems to me that double parking allows you to get the number increased right away without waiting for a new unit size come bet to establish it, meaning you have a better chance at getting on the one or two hottest numbers. Is that correct?

I think I understand this now, and I only hope I use it to good effect under game conditions. But it is sure as hell a confidence builder.

Alamo

Alamo Tx – It sure sounds like you are getting the idea and a feel for TBS. I am happy it is working out for you.

As for going with 2 numbers to start, I think it is harder to take advantage of good rolls doing it that way. You have to ask yourself, what is the objective of starting with 2 numbers instead of 3? As you already surmised if you want to reduce the amount of money you are putting at risk, it is better to start with $5 flat bets and 3 numbers at max odds than to go to 2 numbers. You could also use $10 flat bets with less than max odds to reduce your net amount at risk with 3 numbers if you play at a $10 minimum table.

You have already seen how beneficial it is to collect on almost every throw with an "off and on". A decent roll will begin with 3 numbers and extend to more as you keep the roll going, collecting on almost every roll. A poor roll will end before getting to 3 numbers (with or without any hits), go to 3 numbers and reduce to 2, sevening out with only 2 numbers up and 1 hit or end with 3 numbers and no hits or 4, 5 or 6 numbers with 1, 2 or 3 hits for a net loss of slightly less than 3 numbers because the hits are worth more than the extra number(s) you put up when you spread out. Some of the time you will minimize a loss on a poor roll with the worst loss being a 3 numbers net loss.

I caution you to not bet at a level unless you are comfortable there whether you can afford it or not. Do not rush your game trying for big wins. Steady wins this race. Stay at levels where you are comfortable especially when trying something new under game conditions. Enjoy the journey, there is no destination. Go to the next level naturally when it feels right not because you want to see bigger wins.

Keep your expectations realistic and stay within your own comfort zone. I am sure you have read my article before but I think this may be good time for a review.

Click Here to read: How much should I be winning at the tables?

Skinny –

Just thought I’d share an update on how practice with TBS is going so as to reveal my experiences with the other side of it.

I have cooled off substantially the last several days and have had numerous runs where I am not repeating numbers and have had maybe half a dozen where I get three numbers up and then seven out before hitting anything. If you are ice cold with this method, like any other method, you’ll get nailed. When you are throwing decently but not hitting numbers or going on any long streaks there is real temptation to keep playing and thus grinding down your stack. The dice look and feel good, but the numbers just aren’t coming. I am convinced there is some unknowable element of luck in all gambling and it runs through controlled shooting also.

This afternoon, for example, I had a streak of 18 rolls. Never made the point, so no sevens whatsoever. I managed only 4 hits before getting every box number covered. Before I made even one hit while all the numbers were covered, I executed a really nice throw that hit the back wall and died. Both dice came up right beside each other as a 5/2! This was maybe my fourth try with the dice, and a few numbers at that point could have turned a loss into break even or slightly up. If I didn’t know better, I almost think I can tell when I’m getting cold or not getting the bounces. When 2/1, 1/1, 6/6 and crap like that start hitting on either come out or come bets, you begin to ask yourself things like, "Why couldn’t that 2/1 make one extra click and become a 2/4?" . In the morning practice session, I had a 17 roll hand where I got 3 box numbers up and proceeded to hit multiple back to back 6s and 8s. I didn’t count them, but there had to be at least 6 or 7 of them. Only problem was the 6 and the 8 weren’t covered. After about the 4th one, I was tempted to place the damn things…Ultimately, I sevened out without repeating any of the 3 numbers that the come bets had posted. It’s like sometimes the dice Gods are telling you the bones aren’t going to come up for you today.

Wondered if you had any philosophy to share on the cold spells.

Alamo

Tex, it happens. Have been there and done that. However,(there is always a however), most times (not always) if I continue to shoot for a few turns with the dice, which is always back to back in practice) I usually get my money back or come back to near even. A small loss from time to time I can live with.

Here is what I think (know???) happens to me. I find that when I do have a losing session I am tired and lose my concentration. As in the casino I try to notice that it is not working and quit. There is always another day or practice session or casino if in real play.

Learning when to quit after a good roll is hard to do. As I said, been there done that.

My $.02 worth.

Doc

My philosophy revolves around the idea that craps is like pitching in baseball or hitting a golf ball. Sometimes, you can have an absolutely perfect looking tee shot and when you get to your ball, you find that your lie puts your second shot right over a bunker to the green. You hit that second shot perfectly but a breeze kicks up while your approach shot is in the air and the ball lands just six inches short, back spins a little and rolls down into the bunker rather than up to the pin…the seven. As a pitcher your stuff is really good, but the first batter up gets a fluke bloop hit into center field on a pitch that should have struck him out. You strike out the next hitter swinging but the ball gets away from the catcher and now you have runners on 1st and third. Next, you get Pujols in an 0-2 hole. You try for the strikeout and put a perfect pitch just outsike the strike zone, hoping the hitter will bite and strike out. Instead being the hitter he is, he goes after that perfect pitch and manages somehow to hit a sharp slicing ball drive down the 1st base line and into the corner in right field, scoring both runs in a perfectly pitched inning…. the seven! We can’t get away from the weirdness of luck in baseball, golf or controlled shooting. Sometimes the seven just comes and its not anything we’re doing wrong.

I’ll just keep practicing and getting better!

Alamo

"AlamoTx" wrote: Skinny –

Wondered if you had any philosophy to share on the cold spells.

Alamo

Make sure you have the proper 401-G to ride out the losses and confidence along with the proper attitude to not let it get you down knowing it will turn around eventually. Try to see if there is anything happening consistently that needs correcting. Has something crept into your throw that is "throwing" it off?

Frank tells of an horrendous losing streak he experienced many years ago. I don’t remember the length but I do know it was an extended series of losing sessions.

@@it happens. A .300 hitter only gets a hit 30% of his at bats.

When I have a roll like the one you described where you were up on three outside numbers and kept hitting the 6/8, I tend to put out an extra come bet to get up on four numbers without the requisite number of hits for doing so. Yes, this puts me at greater risk but it does not happen that often. I prefer the extra come bet to place bets because a hit will bring down one of the bets and I need to put up another come bet to get back up on four numbers. At that point, I have 3 wagers at risk with one hit in my rails so I have a bit more protection from a seven out at that moment.

But if I have a long roll by hitting a bunch of craps numbers, even if it is mostly the 11 so that I am still making money, I don’t put out the extra come bet. Craps numbers are off axis rolls that are not indicative of a good throw. I only risk more if I feel the throw is good and I am consistently hitting the numbers I am not up on.

Makes sense. Craps is a game to be played, not mastered, much like golf or tennis.

Been playing this a while in practice, and I’m liking it quite a bit. My question is this:

Can you explain your strategy after 8 initial hits, regarding double parking on the 9th hit and counting from there? Specifically, my natural inclination after banking the 8th hit would be to bump the next come bet to $25 (from my basic $10 unit size) and attempt to replay the initial sequence, where you stairstep to getting all the numbers covered based on number of hits. Granted, that logistically, it seems a bit difficult to employ since you could establish 3 $25 numbers without a hit at the $25 level, and you’d have to take a come bet down, or regress to $10. And, if you hit a $10 bet while your come bet was down, you’d have a vacancy on the board that would have to be filled. Or, why wouldn’t you just keep making $25 come bets until all 6 were covered at the higher level? I know you could get some of your winnings out there that way, if you didn’t hit much, but one hit at the new level would take care of that. You’d be basically financing your new odds with your wins at the lower level. Increasing your come bet amount seems relatively safe to me and the payoff is bigger on the new hits. And, won’t your come betting keep finding the ‘hot’ number you would be pressing when double parking? You’d just start hitting it ‘off and on’ at $175 a crack vs $140 double parked. My thought would be to get maybe 5 hits at the $25 level and then press the come bets up to $50…you’d be deep in the roll by then, anyway.

I’m happy to play it the way you teach it. I just like to know the reasoning.

Thanks.

Alamo

There is nothing wrong with going to $25 base from $10 base after 8 hits instead of double parking. I explained previously in this thread my thinking behind double parking instead of increasing the base bet. Reread that and I think you will see what I have experienced.

But increasing the base bet is a good way to go as well. Here is how it would work starting with $10 at 3-4-5X odds. You would have $40/50/60 on the 4/5/6 and sister numbers respectively. Each hit would pay $70. So after 8 hits if you switch to $25 base bet you would have $110/120/130 coming off and putting up $100/125/150 respectively. So for all 6 numbers you need to take an additional $30 from the rails to fund the increased bet. I don’t consider that a big deal, so I don’t look at it as risking any of my profit. Each hit will pay you $175 and if you put up all 6 numbers you will have put back $420 in winnings plus $30 from your rails on the table. 5 hits will give you $875 which is approximately double the amount you put back on the table. So yes, after 5 hits on the increased base you are ready to go to $50.

You do not have to hold at 3 numbers and wait for a hit to go to the fourth increased base because each hit at $10 approximately funds the $25 bet and odds that replace it. You can keep putting out the $25 after 3, 4 or 5 numbers even with no hits because it is not costing you any profit from the rails, only new winnings which I am willing to risk hoping to make a bigger profit.

To get to the next level from $50 and beyond, you only need 4 hits to double the new amount you put on the table at $25. That is because going from $10 to $25 you are going up by 2.5 but from $25 to $50 or $50 to $100 you are only going up by double and 4 hits will cover the new money out there with a little extra profit for the rails.

6 numbers at $25 with 3-4-5X odds is $100/125/150/150/125/100 = $750 on the table. Switching to $50 base puts out $200/250/300/300/250/200 = $1500 on the table. When you hit every number at $25 you take off $275/300/325/325/300/275 = $1800. So you get to put $300 in your rails and fund each hit with the $25 base plus odds plus $175 that comes down when a $50 number is established. You put $1050 from the 6 hits less the $300 in the rails or $750 in winnings up on the table. Each hit at the $50 level pays $350 so 4 hits pays $1400 which roughly doubles the $750 you put up on the table. So after every 4 hits at the new doubled level you can double the base bet again.

Oh yeah, one other thing. The reason you get $175 a crack vs $140 double parked is because you are putting up 2.5 going from $10 to $25 but only putting up 2 when double parking for less. When you double park some money goes in the rails if you double park all 6 numbers. But you need to take $30 from the rails to go from $10 to $25 on all 6 numbers. You could double park with $50/75/90/90/75/50 to be comparable to going to $25 with odds. By collecting $420 on 6 numbers and putting $430 back up on the table you get more from the double park. Then the place bets would pay $98/105/105/105/105/98 along with the $70 from the $10 base plus odds. You would be collecting $168/175/175/175/175/168 or almost as much as when you go to $25 plus odds.

Skinny –

Explained very well, my friend….as usual. Very easy to understand and to implement. I feel like I could manage the increased come bet method better than double parking, simply because all I have to remember is 5 hits and $25 and then 4 hits thereafter. Even a non-mathematician such as myself can manage to put 4 or 5 chips in the rail to tell him when to advance the troops!

Going to be in Vegas 24th thru 27th, if you’re going to be around, would love to buy you a drink (alcoholic or non) and pick your brain. My cell is 210-273-9364, just in case.

As an aside, it seems that I don’t often get to the 8 hits point, but now I’m totally clear on what to do when it happens. Usually, it seems like on a shorter roll, you might get 5 or 6 hits out of 20 total, for example. Probably would get more if my shot was better, but I’m working on that all the time. I’ve gotten to where anything but a box number annoys the heck out of me! With my old 2-3 bet method, I used to sometimes look at the garbage numbers as just breaks in the action. Now they mean one more roll where a new number or an ‘off and on’ didn’t happen. Funny how this game changes as you learn stuff.

Thanks again.

Alamo

Skinny –

Have another question for you involving TBS and warming up.

Usually, when I first get to a table, I’m a little amped up and not yet accustomed to throwing in a competitive environment, so I want to 5 count myself and not put full odds out there until I’m into the groove. What would you suggest as a warm up betting strategy, using a $10 unit size? I’ve been experimenting with this: Single odds on the first three numbers established and move the odds to full odds after the 5 count. Two things happen fairly often. #1, I get an early 7 and the single odds do their job of bankroll protection. #2 and more troublesome, I hit one or two numbers with single odds within the 5 count, and the throw is looking good. Now, I’ve got 2 hits with single odds. Officially, two hits calls for you to try to cover 5 numbers, but the wins aren’t in the rack to justify that exposure, since the two hits have been on single odds numbers. My thought was to take full odds on the 3 established numbers and not make another come bet until I get a hit on one of the 3 numbers, then go to 4 from there, then to 5 and so on. Does that make sense, or am I better off, pushing the odds up on the 3 numbers I’ve already established and just going for the 4th number with a come bet…or is that too aggressive? In other words, what is the hedging procedure during a warmup with this system? Another thought has occurred to me: After a single odds warmup, should you just leave the single odds on the numbers you’ve already established and start over and put full odds only on numbers made in the future, starting your hit count from there? Not sure I’m making sense, but I want to play this thing smart and not get tagged early before I’m fully warmed up. Often, in practice it is the second or third turn with the dice that gets in the groove and makes some numbers.

Much appreciated.

Alamo

Tex, how about just 5-counting yourself till you feel "dialed in"?? I have found my first time with the dice is shakey, so I just place bet w/o odds and 5-count. When I am feeling good and results are looking good, then it’s GAME ON pardner! 😎

I tend to agree with The Griz. Your post is sending mixed messages and it is hard to give an answer.

On the one hand you are saying

"AlamoTx" wrote:
but I want to play this thing smart and not get tagged early before I’m fully warmed up
Alamo

But at the same time you are saying

"AlamoTx" wrote:
In other words, what is the hedging procedure during a warmup with this system?
Alamo

It is as if you are trying to have it both ways. You want to minimize your risk but you want to make a big win if the roll extends. I don’t see a way to do both. If you want to minimize risk then keep the betting low until you feel confident. At some point you have to commit to the inherent risk and be comfortable with it.

If you make 3 wagers with single odds you have a maximum net amount at risk of $60. If you lose that 2 or 3 times while warming up you can be down $120 to $180. It does not sound like you would want to be in that kind of a hole so that is why I think you should warm up as The Griz has said.

If you do feel comfortable with the $60 risk for a warm up and want to do a version of TBS here is one way. Follow the same principles until you get 8 hits. In other words after 1, 2 and 3 hits respectively go to 4, 5 and 6 numbers respectively. Your $60 max risk reduces with each hit because each hit pays $22, $24 or $30 and you are only risking another $20 with the extra number. With 6 numbers and 3 hits you will have $120 on the table and 3 wins for between $66 and $90. Your net amount at risk with 6 numbers is between $30 to $54.

8 hits will bring in between $176 to $240 and will probably average around $200. At that point you will have $120 on the table with $200 in wins from the 8 hits for an $80 profit in your rails. I would put the winnings from each hit after that back up in odds until you have full odds on all the numbers. Take the $70 win from any hit at full odds and count that as 1 hit. 4 hits at max odds puts $280 profit in the rails bringing you to $360 in profit in the rails with a max of $300 on the table. Now you are at full TBS and can increase to $25 line bets following the TBS progression from there.

Now this is not going to bring in big wins because it will take a huge roll to get to that point. I would not do this unless you are OK with the $60 risk. If you just want to warm up with minimum risk (the corollary is minimum win potential) then go with PL no odds and two place bets. This is a maximum risk of $34.

Thanks guys…I think I"ve kind of figured out what I want to do on this. I will probably make a PL bet with single odds and 2 come bets with odds, within the 5 count. Once the 5th number rolls, if the dice are feeling good, I’ll bump the odds up to max on all 3 numbers, regardless of whether or not I hit one of the single odds numbers during the 5 count. First hit at full odds = game on and time to get 4 numbers up. In other words, TBS does not begin until roll 6. I see little downside except that I lose the chance for a $70 hit within the first 5 rolls. After that, I’ve got the 3 numbers I’m willing to risk on the table at full odds. Seems like a reasonable trade off. I’m with you; there probably is no way to completely eliminate the risk of an early 7 out. No balls, no blue chips….Alamo

Great POST over 800 views.

I like Skinny’s posts. I think he is one of the best posters in the world. I also think he is ugly. But what can you do about that? 😆

Skinny Have a question . Do you ever place the 4 or 10 during this roll to protect your hard way bet . It seems that it may help you to relax a little knowing that you will win some back if you roll it easy which does happen even to the best.
I have now changed my bet on the hard 4 and 10 to up on first hit to 5.00 but no parlay yet. Got to third hit but chicken out. Left it at 5.00 and the 7 showed .
So was glad did not up it again. It has been fun .
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

If the roll extends to where I do place bets in addition to my come bets I will buy the 4 and 10. But I don’t do it to protect a hard way bet because I don’t bet the hard ways. The HA on them is too high to try to overcome.

Opps Should have put that on another post sorry.

Bump for all to see

Dom