It is my belief that you should always take some amount of odds with every Pass or Come bet. If you do not like your shot, then take less than max odds.

If you are comfortable and like your shot, go to the most odds that your session bankroll will allow.

The same applies to betting on a random roller. If you get past the 5 count and make a come bet, then take something in odds. One come bet with odds is enough for a random roller, unless it hits a couple of times. After locking up my win on a random roller, I will make a second come bet, or increase my odds on the one come bet.

NFF

"AlamoTx" wrote: In an attempt to protect the BR, I have been experimenting with 5 counting myself on the passline and placing odds on the number only after the 5 count is completed.
Alamo

It sounds as though you are concerned about your BR. Have you taken a class? (There is nothing under your name, so I assume not.) Until you take a class, you may not have the confidence that is needed when you are the shooter. The best way to become an advantage player is to save money for a class, as well as saving money for a 401G (gambling BR) account. Without these, you may always be too concerned about your BR to be successful.

Once you have taken a class, practiced for at least 6 months while growing the 401G account, you will then have the confidence to bet on yourself. Instructors and interns do not 5 count themselves, and I believe most people who have taken the classes also do not. We rely on our own throw to be successful.

I agree with NFF. I always take odds on myself.

Goddess

Alamo took the Tunica/Memphis class a couple of years ago.

NFF

"AlamoTx" wrote: I’ve found that it sometimes takes a couple of turns with the dice before the throw settles in and gets into a comfort zone

The same is true with me, even in practice. And then there are the days when it just doesn’t come together at all.
Sorry for the lack of any mathematical basis for my answer, but I don’t start out with max odds. I press them if I get hits on my place bets and if I make the point before the 5 count, so be it. It’s still a win. My reason for that is also related to limiting my exposure.
So basically it’s passline–1X or 2X odds, and 6&8 place bets. Recover initial spread, then increase my odds by 1 unit or so till I max out (IF I get to max out). It’s not always peachy when I play and it doesn’t always go according to my plans, for better or worse.

AGame, that is a good way to play. Once you get to max odds, then press up you Pass or Come bet. Now you can escalate your odds to max again.

The one mistake players make is pressing up the PL or Come bet before the odds are maxed.

NFF

Agame –

That’s basically the gist of my post. In practice, and in live play, I’ve found it may take a dozen or so throws before I settle in and get comfortable, so I"ve been experimenting with no odds for 5 throws (not a strict 5 count, BTW), then on throw number six, which is come bet number 1, I’ll place full odds on the passline and full odds on the come number. Every long hand certainly begins with 5 throws. A GTC shooter once advised me, while we were in Vegas team playing, to just put a minimum bet on the passline and ‘warm up’ with no odds, until the throw felt good. Not bad advice, I think. In live play, it takes a minute for the dice to feel right in your hand, and sometimes they just never do.

As far as the six and eight are concerned, I"ve tried placing those, but for some reason, I seem to do better with come bets. My theory is that my throw is hitting certain combinations of numbers on a particular day. I’ve found that if the six and eight are hot for me on a particular day, I’ll likely pick them up with full odds while come betting. I"ve just had too many sessions where I place the 6 and 8 and take odds on the PL and then never hit anything but 5s, 9s, 10s, 4s, etc.

In practice, I’m finding that on occasion I might hit the passline number right back or within 5 throws, but usually not until deeper in the count. I have to admit, it’s a little aggravating to hit a 4 without odds on throw number 3! Over time, I"m probably hitting the 7 within the 5 count more often than I’m hitting the passline bet. On the longer rolls, of course, I’ve only missed a few rolls where I could have taken odds. Then again, maybe you’ve got the best chance by going right out there full up on the odds.

My BR is not a concern as far as adequacy is concerned. I’m trying to come up with a strategy for limiting the downside before you catch a teens + run. Too many times, I’ve thrown a hand in the 20s or 30s with most of the gain from it making up prior losses on earlier hands when the dice weren’t behaving well or my throw was off or whatever.

I don’t think there’s a definitive answer to this…and I"m just going to ignore any posts about ‘why don’t you take another class’. That ought to get everybody stirred up!

Alamo

AlamoTX, sage advice from that teammate of yours…. :ugeek:

Well spoken, KN. Maybe all of this is about risk tolerance, but basically, I have been attempting to avoid that ‘deep hole’ that can happen before you get warmed up.

Now, at the risk of being considered a rogue, non-drinker of the Kool-Aid, I have this to say about the GTC lessons. First, they are valuable and helpful. Second, and unfortunately, adding to your gross net worth should be the object of a controlled game, in my view. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that a craps class costs $3500, including course fees, travel, meals, etc. (just looking at this in terms of reality). As a $5 bettor who plays craps for real money 5 times a year and risks maybe $300 per session and has 5 or 6 sessions per visit, you can start doing some math. Three things can happen when you play craps, and you know what they are, but lets say you come home from Vegas up a net of $300 (optimism or pessimism to the contrary nothwithstanding). Your $3500 skill enhancement cost divided by $300 = 11.67 trips to Vegas to break even. And, that assumes you win $300 every time, and we know this is an up and down, trend up, game with dice control. All you have to do is stack a couple of more classes and refreshers on there, and you’re in an investment hole. So…two things apply here. One: Don’t expect to EVER get the cost of your classes and refreshers back if you are a red chip player; TWO: You must be a green chip player or higher in order for you to realize any real financial benefit. $25 flat bets with 3,4,5x odds can make some serious money on decent hands. All the naturals with odds pay $175 per hit. If you press and hit a few numbers, you’re banging the gong. A big roll can net you $1000 or more pretty readily. A few good sessions, and you’re in the black after lessons, travel, etc. On the other hand, the other benefit to lessons, I suppose is that this is just a fun hobby like golf and you’ll spend ridiculous amounts of money on lessons , green fees, travel etc. just for the love of the sport. If that last one is true, then so be it. Spend on.

So, I know my game is far from perfect, but it is much better than random, despite what those who do not know my game may say. I have days when my form is better than others. When all or most of the 200 things you have to do right are working, my controlled throw is good enough to have almost gotten me past 40 rolls a few times now, and rolls in the teens and 20s are common. My throw is working and I am continuing to work on it, but I can’t justify more classes until I’ve got some real money going onto the table, which I hope to have happening soon. I am having the same basic mental debate in my sports betting with Dominator. He’s the best I’ve ever seen at picking sports bets, but until I"ve got my unit bet size high enough, I’m not going to make money with Dom, factoring in the cost of getting his service. This is reality for me. I"m a businessman and I think like a businessman. Things I do that are designed to make money either make money or they don’t. My windsurfing hobby, for example does not make money, and I do take lessons on occasion, but most of it is just going out and getting better at what you’ve been taught to do. And windsurfing lessons do not cost anywhere near what GTC classes cost and there’s wind and water nearby. There are crazies who will chase the wind and waves all over the world and those are in that last category I talked about.

Bottom line to everybody. Stop telling me to take a class. I’ve taken a class and a couple of tune ups, and I choose not to spend any more money on classes until I’ve got a big enough BR to justify it. This is supposed to be a help and advice forum, which we all pay to be part of. Go take a lesson may be part of that, sometimes, but it seems to be almost a mantra at times. Did I miss the part where I get a commission for getting a poster to take a class? Just being funny here.

Let’s see if this one gets posted. I’m sure some among you will write back defending the need to take classes regulary, but I think my original analysis above stands on its own, so I won’t turn this into a fiscal debate. Its hard to argue in favor of classes along purely economic lines for other than for players who are green chip and above.

Out.

Alamo

Alamo, great post with a lot of good responses.

I am now a 100% come better. I took a tune up in AC this past month and it has really helped. At the end of the tune up session Dom had spotted a couple of things in my throw which were corrected and also said that he used to be a place better (6 & 8) with some come bets but switched to all come bets. He wins more in winning sessions and loses less in losing sessions.

Think about it, the pass line/come bet with some odds has a lower vig than placing the 6 & 8. You will win more and lose less over time. No math genius here, just makes sense. And you save much more on the very short rolls.

If you are come betting and you roll a six or eight whick is not covered you don’t make anything, but the money goes to the 6 or 8—you now have it covered. Yes, missed a pay day but I find it is more than offset with the quick 7 outs that will occur. Come betting in the long run you may miss a few pay days but you will not lose as much by come betting. And you have the power of the 7 working for you on each and every roll of the dice. By the way I like to cover 4 numbers.

This has been working good for me since I returned home from AC.

The cost of the trip—air fare, rental car hotel rooms and some meals–are simply the cost of traveling which Alligator Rose and I love to do. We don’t count these expenses against our 401g. Rooms are generally comped as are many meals. So even if we lose a litle or break even on the tables it is a most inexpensive trip. We also have a companion pass for Rose with Southwest Airlines so we only have to purchase one ticket. AND WE GET TO DO SOMETHING WE LOVE WITH GOOD FRIENDS. IT DOES NOT GET BETTER THAN THAT!!!!!

Just some idle thoughts. Keep up the good practice.

Hope to see you soon in the casinos.

Doc

Tex, one last thought. The cost of the classes is not an expense. They are an investment. I will never understand how someong can buy in for $500, spreading on several numbers in the amount of $50 (not a particularily bit spread) and play for a couple of hours, 3 times a day. The exposure is up in the $10,000’s of dollars, if not much more, over a 3 night trip. Yet not want to spend the amount for a primer, refresher, video analysis, or tune up.

I have posted this type of thing several times but I feel it bares repeating.

Just my $.02 worth.

Doc

You call the moves before they are made because you can see the angle they’ll be coming from, and yet that doesn’t stop them from being made.
The point wasn’t to not ever take classes.
I actually expected something about bankroll considerations to be said, but no. Not even the Holy Math was cited here. Well, I want in on the commission so Alamo, go take another class. I don’t care how tautological our discussion is going to get after this.

* How much should you be winning at the tables.
* The percentage of successful controlled shooters and the frequency with which they win.

Now let’s ignore the two above pieces of wisdom and get on the bandwagon: Taaake Uhnother Kluss.

"Agame" wrote:

* How much should you be winning at the tables.
* The percentage of successful controlled shooters and the frequency with which they win.

I can at least answer some of your questions with the following article:

How much should I be winning at the tables?

The article also addresses the frequency with which you should expect to be winning.

Skinny, thanks, I read the article again. It keeps things in perspective and along with good practice and discipline, it is one of the beginner DC’s best friends.

Classes are valuable and the post under discussion acknowledges as much.

Variables:
Classes cost…?
Refresher cost…?
Frequency of play…?
Possibility/rate of success…?
Adequate bankroll…?

Now we should take all that into account and either rebut, correct, suggest, and try to stay on point in our replies. These variables are alluded to in the post under discussion; if they are wrong or otherwise incomplete, maybe we’ll point that out as well. There’s a detailed preamble, a point (about the classes) and a conclusion. Are the preamble and conclusion misguided? If they are, no one pointed that out.

Instead, all I saw was more Kool Aid.

* How much should you be winning at the tables.
Keep track over three years and see your percentage. Or analyze your throw with SmartCraps.

* The percentage of successful controlled shooters and the frequency with which they win.
Dom thinks 10 percent who try it succeed. The failure rate is high because the betting choices, not the throwing competence, are incorrect. I think a higher percentage win but I have no proof to back up my statement. Frequency of wins? An on-axis controller will probably win more because short rolls are still winning rolls. I think 30 to 40 percent of sessions will be wins.

I have to go to the pool. If you have any response I might not be here since I am also heading to Memphis. Yours is a good post!

Okay, just got back from swimming:

My trip two weeks ago might be somewhat instructive:

I stayed four days and played two sessions of craps per day. I took the dice two or three times per session. I bet Pass with Full Odds and the 6 and often (but not always) the 8. I will sometimes switch to come betting with full odds if my dice are not zeroing in on the 6, then I will have three bets working.

For each session I kept track of what I won or lost. I also kept track of how many numbers I rolled by using chips in my rack. So I have session win rates. I took the dice 21 times in four days. I won eight times; lost 13 times. My losses are contained because I can’t lose more than my first spread. My wins are not contained as I keep going on a roll until I seven out.

I won three of the four days since my wins overcame my losses. If I take the number of times I took the dice and divide it into my total win (or loss if I lost) I can come up with a per throwing average for the trip.

Obviously one trip does not an advantage player make but over 24 years of playing craps, 22 of them with a controlled throw going from okay to quite good, the proof is in the bankroll. Naturally I started as a $5 player and I am 50 times over that now.

Random rollers I handle this way. I make one bet – a come bet with odds after the 5-Count. If I can make a $5 come bet, great, my expected loss is 7 cents on that shooter. If I must bet $10, my expected loss is 14 cents. I just remember how many random rollers I bet on and use the math to tell me what I lost (meaning what really happened in the short run is irrelevant.)

Now is the cost of taking the GTC courses a good thing or a bad thing or a no-thing. A $5 player is usually more than a $5 player if the person makes more than one bet and/or uses odds.

Figure out what you use in terms of total money for playing a given random session at a disadvantage. You can look up the house edges on the types of bets you make and estimate how much these cost you. Now you know how much a random game means.

Then give yourself a small two to three percent edge over the house; make only the best bets as GTC teaches; use the 5-Count on random rollers (figure you’ll make one bet on each of them and you’ll only be on 43 percent of their rolls) and figure what your win rate will be. You can now decide if it is worth taking a class. Are the wins with an edge good enough to overcome the losses you would have encountered? Will they ultimately pay for the course that taught you how to win? If the answer is yes, take a course. If you are a practicing GTcer then tune-ups and the video-elite analysis are also good options.

Obviously, we are all different. If you are a craps player who goes to the casinos once a year and bets a few hundred dollars then it would certainly take you a long time to make up the cost of a course — maybe a couple of years. You have to make the decision for yourself whether doing this is good or bad or meaningless.

Gamblers really don’t give a damn about house edges or wins or losses. So such a type is not a GTC candidate.

To me and to GTC, we are looking for serious players who want to play with an edge. These can be monsterously-bankrolled players or low rollers or everyone inbetween.

But Agame has brought up important points to think about.

(My bankroll requirements, etc., can be found in my books.)

Hope you both make the fire back to back and then take the class and tell all how you paid for the class.We ALL enjoy your posts on this site hope you have many more.
I remember reading one of your posts when I first got on this site that said that you guys did not care if you had taken the class or not. That you would be happy to roll with any body that was into this.I thought that was vary nice of you guys.I love reading about all your trips.
Good Rolling. 😀