In my opinion, the throw is perhaps the easiest part of being a true advantage player.

From the GTC perspective both the throw and proper betting go into making up the Advantage Player. Which is more important can be debated, however, from my point of view the math and proper betting are first position. Without an understanding of those you can have a perfect throw and still go home broke.

The Don’t side player can also be an Advantage Player using nothing more that the math and proper betting. Yes, yes I know, some of you loath the Darkside player. But think about it. Lacking the throw what is left other than the math. And don’t we attempt, through the 5 Count, to avoid those short rolls. 57% of them to be specific. That’s exactly where the Darkside Guy is golden, that 57%.

A smart Darksider is going to know the math just like us and use it.

The Darkside guy is going to prosper much like us using the reverse of our bets. He’s going to know when to play and when not to play. He is going to know when to flip over to take advantage of those longer positive throws as well. He is an Advantage Player without the Patented throw.

All of this I have used to show that the Math and proper Betting is what makes us Advantage Players. The throw is a Value added item. A very important value added item indeed, but secondary to the math and Proper betting.

"CIII" wrote:
It is maddening to play in a session where my toss is above average to good and my betting discipline is correct and the undisciplined players at the table are reaping the rewards.

I feel your pain, been there done that.

Never the less, excerpts from Rudyard Kipling’s poem, "If…" come to mind

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs…

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,…

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:..

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And which is more; you’ll be a Man, my son!

for me atleast, the throw has been by far the most difficult process. As many, i have been up and down a number of times. I think part of that is the number of different types of tables you play at.

In the 2.5 years i have worked on my roll i have had a good number of rolls in the 40’s and a few in the 50’s, but i have had countless 7 outs….

So for me i think an advantage player needs to be smart and not have a great ego… if you throw is not
looking good bet little or dont play. I find i have been starting out with a very low bet until i think my
throw is ok helps.

So betting and the throw i think have to work together.

For me also i had to find a way to have fun with the other players again. It drove me nuts waiting for
the dice when others are throwing. I try to play on mostly empty tables, or use part of the dewey dont system
when i bet on others…. i am in the game, yet on short rolls i dont lose, best of both worlds.

Playing with other advantage PLAYERS is a must. It adds so much when you share their good rolls
with them, or yours with others.

The mental part of the game may be the biggest aspect of a good advantage player.

gman

"Stephen C" wrote: From the GTC perspective both the throw and proper betting go into making up the Advantage Player. Which is more important can be debated, however, from my point of view the math and proper betting are first position. Without an understanding of those you can have a perfect throw and still go home broke.

The Don’t side player can also be an Advantage Player using nothing more that the math and proper betting. Yes, yes I know, some of you loath the Darkside player. But think about it. Lacking the throw what is left other than the math. And don’t we attempt, through the 5 Count, to avoid those short rolls. 57% of them to be specific. That’s exactly where the Darkside Guy is golden, that 57%.

A smart Darksider is going to know the math just like us and use it.

The Darkside guy is going to prosper much like us using the reverse of our bets. He’s going to know when to play and when not to play. He is going to know when to flip over to take advantage of those longer positive throws as well. He is an Advantage Player without the Patented throw.

All of this I have used to show that the Math and proper Betting is what makes us Advantage Players. The throw is a Value added item. A very important value added item indeed, but secondary to the math and Proper betting.

Stephen C,

While I agree with a great deal of what you said in this post, I feel obligated to clarify one aspect that has risky implications. The Darkside guy is not golden with the 57% of the rolls that we avoid by using the 5 count. Every 7 and 11 that is thrown before the point is established is part of the 57% of the rolls avoided and they are all Darkside losers. The Pass Line wager has a 2 – 1 advantage on the come out roll before the point is established. All the Pass Line winners in that 2 – 1 advantage are losers for the Darkside. The Darkside player is at a 2 – 1 disadvantage before a point number is thrown.

The House Advantage (HA) for the Pass Line is -1.41%.

The House Advantage for the Don’t Pass Line is -1.36%.

It is not possible to use the math of the game to gain an advantage on the Rightside or the Darkside.

The five count is a method for saving ones bankroll for longer rolls and for betting on oneself and other controlled shooters. It helps players to stay in the game longer so that they are there when longer rolls occur. It is not a way to increase one’s advantage using the math of the game for either the Rightside or Darkside. The Darkside guy can not prosper by using the reverse of our bets. Both types of players have the same HA working against them both before and after the 5 count.

Skinny,

I was simply pointing out that knowing the math and betting properly are paramount in becoming an Advantage Player. I didn’t mean to imply that the Darkside was somehow more advantageous than the right side. I could do nothing but block my entire Dice life and be a advantage player.

Either side of play can be thought of as Advantage players with a certain expertise in the Math of the game and using the proper betting scheme for that method of play. Whether you win is a different story and certainly not guaranteed.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

Stephen C,

My faith in you is restored. Actually it was never lost. I apologize if I took your meaning out of context.

There has been some confusion about the application of the 5 count to the Darkside in the past. I wanted to take this opportunity to clarify the 5 count as it relates to the Darkside.

Honestly without a throw how do you overcome the house edge?

Those are my thoughts, without the throw it is a negative expectation game. The throw is the game changer.

To play with my Advantage player friends!! 😆

"NickatNight" wrote: To play with my Advantage player friends!! 😆

Now ther is a answer love you man.

Gman, let the point-7’s go… As long as we are ahead of those in the long run, we are winners! Isn’t it weird… But I think this toss brings up some devils quickly sometimes… Just ride it out… We have the advantage to get those long rolls more often!

Q. In the opion of the public what is more important to being a advantage player?

I has to be the betting. No question about it.

Yes you need to have an EDGE with the dice, but being an ADVANTAGE PLAYER is more of a state of mind. Know your edge and bet into that edge, a wise man once told me.

An Advantage Player will drive 2 hours to a casino, see that playing conditions aren’t favorable, and drive back home, without ever placing a bet. Where does a 20 SRR factor in to that scenario?

Same with BJ. It is more that just knowing the count, it knowing when to put more money out there and how much. Know your edge and bet into that edge.

Being able to create and edge with the dice or being able to count cards does not make one an Advantage Player. Knowing when and how much to bet (or not bet) separates the Gambler from the Advantage Player.

Good points.

JB and Bman are correct in that the throw is not only everything, but the only thing in terms of getting an advantage, and my point was not to suggest that is not so,, i love the passion these guys have for the game and a good throw……

my point is simply that the casino’s make a great deal of money by allowing people to win, but very few ever get it out the door.
I think a good advantage player is more than just his or her throw.

gman

I’ve often wondered this: Why wouldn’t a controlled shooter (under certain circumstances) put a large bet on the Don’t Pass line, set a V2 and try to roll a 4 or 10? Then whatever box number comes up, set for the 7 and try to hit a flat bet don’t pass number? Once you’ve made a box number point, you already have a big advantage on the don’t side. Why not increase that advantage by setting for the 7 against the point? Obviously, to answer my own question with one objection, I would point out that if you hit your 7, you lose the dice; but, what if you are at an empty table? Or, maybe set the hardway on the come out, hoping to make a box number, then set for the 7, trying to hit the beatch before you hit the box number, setting the hardway to minimize 7/11 on the come out roll? Thoughts?

AlamoTx,
There’s probably a long answer with mathematical illustrations to go with it, but I don’t have it. My answer is, because very few advantage players are that skilful. Also because the traditional way of playing still allows for a large bet on the place numbers that pays more than a flat bet. That bet can be pressed when hit, and doesn’t alter the course of the game when hit. You just get the dice back and can attempt to roll it again.

Why do you guys want to play for a single win.

playing the dont is not the way to go for an advantage player.

You never see the big roll or even the teens that are the money makers.

you are playing only to win the single bet bad move.

"brothelman" wrote: Why do you guys want to play for a single win[…] You never see the big roll or even the teens that are the money makers.

We don’t want to play like that… we’re just discussing the appeal or the lack thereof in that betting and shooting style. Speaking for myself, at least. As for winning the bet and moving on, on an empty table, the dice would be passed right back to you so it’d actually be winning the bet and keeping at it!! 😀
And winning here is the operative word. Would a controlled shooter, wishing to maximize his hits, capitalize on his skill, and increase the number of ways to throw a winning combination (being that more combos result in 7’s than do in 6 or 8—which is just darn unfair) do well betting the don’t?
On an empty table, money-making rolls in the teens and shooting the don’t are not mutually exclusive. Just depends on how you look at it.

If I had the skill to hit at will I would also have the skill to turn right side throws into money makers. The Don’t side odds payouts are reversed from the right side. Soooo, lets use your example. Come out set the 2V and get 10 as your point with $5 on the don’t Pass. Back that with odds, on a table that is 3,4,5X that gives you $10 odd. Come right back with the 7 and you lose the dice but win the bet. You’ve made $10 for 15 risked. Not to good of a pay day. Do that time after time 5 come outs and 7’s later you only are ahead $50 with $75 risked.

Take that same bet but on the right side. Come out 10 and right back with it. Same $75 risked but $125 gained. Sound better.

Unfortunately few are that consistent. Wish I were.

I will still wrong side on the occasional Chicken feeder, but when a know, including myself, GTCer has the Dice never. Takes my chances on the skill player every time.

I am very confussed if it is appealing then why not do it?

I mean why would you never be willing to do somthing that appeals to you,lmao?

I mean ev ate the fruit right?

"brothelman" wrote: I am very confussed if it is appealing then why not do it?
I mean why would you never be willing to do somthing that appeals to you,lmao?
I mean ev ate the fruit right?

I repeat: We [at least I] don’t want to play like that… we’re just discussing the appeal or the lack thereof in that betting and shooting style.

Just curious, do you have any thoughts on the Big Enchilada? Do you like the idea? Would you recommend it to a skilled shooter?

yes i would recomend the whole enchilada to a skilled shooter, that is if he is a skilled shooter in my opion.

I would have to see the throw to recomend it, yes he or whe would have to be a skilled shooter in my opion for me to recomend it.

People do not have the eye for details and do not look for the prooper things to tell if throw is worthy.

My throw currently is not worthy of the recomendation!!!!!!!!!

One good time to play the Don’t is to clear the table.

I remember hearing a story about some Instructors doing "the Don’t thing" to clear the table so they could play properly. I laugh every time I think of it.

Now that is an idea worth trying.

I think the throw is very important. The betting is second. I really like throwing with other advantage players because it adds fun to the game and also means there is less floppys.
Bman your throw is always worthy and GREAT to watch