fscobe posts

I received an email from JC, a student who had attended the Golden Touch Connecticut seminar, wanting to know what betting levels he should employ with a 401G of $2000 (A 401G is a bank account that is used strictly for gambling!) and what his session stake should be. I gave him a quick answer of “a $200 session stake and don’t bet more than $24 on yourself and $12 on random rollers” that I want to flesh out now.

A bankroll of $2,000 may seem sufficient to play $5 table minimums of Pass/Come, double odds but in reality it is a short bankroll. If you are going to make a Pass line bet and one or two Come bets and if you want to take advantage of the odds, when you are fully exposed, you’ll have between $30 and $45 at risk on a single roll of the dice. That’s 15 percent to almost 20 percent of your $200 session stake. A few wipeouts and you’re wiped out.

For a dice controller certain rules of thumb should apply:

1. Always use the 5-Count.
2. Bet lower on random rollers than you do on yourself.
3. Have a small bet to large session stake ratio.
4. Have a small session stake to large bankroll (401G) ratio.
5. Leave when you get tired.
6. Leave when your session-stake can’t sustain another round of bad shooters

Let’s take these one at a time.

#1: The 5-Count is a proven entity, not perfect, but the best method for avoiding awful rolls and 57 percent of the random rollers you’ll encounter. (I’m going to address the major criticisms of the 5-Count in a separate post, when I get the time that is.)

#2. If you clearly have the edge, the ideal situation is to play alone or, in order to rest a little, with one or two other dice controllers at the same table. Even one or two random rollers will give you a much-needed break after you have sevened-out on a previous roll. Short of that, you have to swim with the sharks and play at tables with any number of people (Dom, Howard, Billy the Kid and I played at a table in Wisconsin, a 12 footer, that crammed 16-18 players in!). Bet as low as possible on the random rollers who make it through the 5-Count. Now, I do realize that many of us just love the game of craps and we need a certain betting level to give us a thrill. Make it the lowest level possible, because every bet on a random roller is, after all, a long-term losing wager. If you are a $30 place bettor of the 6 and 8, then bet $12 sixes and eights on the random rollers. Or, if you can, six dollar 6s and 8s. If you usually take full odds on your Pass and Come on random rollers, consider going to double odds on the table minimum bet on random rollers.

On yourself, you can then bet that $30 six and eight, or even go to $42 on each as Dom advocates. By reducing the amount you wager on the random rollers, you can increase the amount you bet on yourself. But to do this, you must know that you have the ability to change the game in your favor when you roll. Our greatest enemy as advantage craps players is often ourselves. So be brutally honest with yourself as to where you stand on the skill hierarchy.

#3. You want to have at least 10 potential wipeouts in your rack when you buy into a game. If you’re going to make your spread across the number $60, then you should have at least $600 to play with. However, by only betting maximum spread on yourself, and the minimum on the random rollers, you can go with half that amount — $300 for session. That would mean, you bet $60 on yourself; $12 on the random rollers.

#4. I used to think that you needed at least 10 times your session stake as your total bankroll (401G) but I’m beginning to think you need at least double to four times that amount. With a skill such as dice control you need to be comfortable when you shoot; the more money in the bank, not at risk in a session, the more relaxed you’re going to be. The more relaxed, the better chance your skill will make you more money. More money = the more relaxed = more money = …you get the picture.

#5. Fatigue is the enemy of a controlled shooter. It doesn’t necessarily make us cowardly as Vince Lombardi said it did of football players, but it makes us become mere chicken feeders. I’ve been there. It isn’t pretty.

#6. If things aren’t going well at a session and you’re down three-fourths of your session stake and there are a whole bunch of random rollers waiting to get their hot, sweaty, greasy hands on the dice, quit. You might not have enough to sustain a whole new round of shooters, especially if they get past the 5-Count and seven out on the 6-, 7, or 8- counts. Save the money for tomorrow’s session.

Dominator responds
Hi All,

A great post by Frank! I will just add some thoughts to #2. Before any of you new guys risk that high of a percentage on yourself as I advocate in step two, have your documentation to back you up that you indeed have an advantage! What you need is is at least 2000 rolls and 300 series of sessions. My definition of one series of one session starts with establishing a point number and ends with a seven. You can start this practice with the all sevens set or your point cycle set. After theses series have been recorded, you now do some math. You need to figure percentage wise what the percentage is that you hit one or two box numbers before a seven shows. If you are hitting one 6 or 8 at least 94% of the time before the seven, then you can afford with the $2000 BR to place the 6 and 8 for $30, take ONE hit and then regress them down to $12 each. This will put a $11 profit in your rack, $35 win minus the $24 still on the table. IF you get to the point that you can hit 2 6’s or 8 within 92% of the time you can afford to keep them up for two hits, before bringing them down to $12 each.

The point here is that with a short BR you can afford to wager more on yourself if you have documented your tosses, and have proven to yourself that you have an advantage with your toss. These small wins will add to your BR, and you can eventually start with a bigger opening point, or because of your BR growing, take your shoot and keep them up thru out your roll. As your advantage and skill in controlled rolling increases, regression can cost you money on yourself. But my friends, DO NOT think that you are better than what you are. I DID NOT stop regression on myself till about 1.5 years ago. So for three years I did this play on myself to increase my BR and to have confidence that I could.

Dominator

Double Down Dave Posts a Question.

Frank, when you get the time, can you give spcific bankroll requirements for various levels of betting? I could use some overall guidance in this area as I tend to overbet my session stake and when I’m down I rarely can resist going into my credit lines some more.

fscobe responds

BANKROLL SESSION STAKE BET/CS BET/RR
2K-4K $200 $24 or less $12
5K-7K $300 $30 or less $12
8K-10K $400 $60 or less $15-$20
11K-15K $600 $90 or less $30
16K-20K $900 $120 or less $45
21K-30K $1,200 $150 or less $60

Obviously, the above betting levels are just based on my opinions. At 2K, you are really under funded so a place bet of the 6 and 8 for $12 each for controlled shooters (CS) would be max. You’d try to get yourself competent using the 3V and try for those two numbers. You might, as Dom and others recommend, try some regression betting until you had 4K. Place the 6 and 8 for half that for random rollers or just one for $6.

I realize that looking at someone with a 30K bankroll and then seeing such a low bet as $150 on controlled shooters and only $60 on random rollers might seem very, very conservative. And it is. It will also guarantee you that no string of awful sessions will really put you in a hole so deep you won’t be able to climb out of it with a string of good sessions.

The more money you have backing your play, the more relaxed you’ll be, the more relaxed the better your shooting will be. Say you place the 6 and 8 for $60 each and you take full odds on your pass line bet. You’ll be around the $150 to $200 mark when you shoot. You can play Pass/Come with the random rollers, making table minimum bets after the 3-Count and backing with full odds after the 5-Count.

SI Man responds

I assume that these are general figures. If you bet $60, it can be a combination of place betting and come or pass betting. I think these figures are good because it does give you an idea of what you should have behind you backing your play. I just started by 401G after reading about it here on the web site.

I opened a money market account that gets about 1.7 percent interest and I put 10K in it. I will now use about $400 per session but I intend to only make place bets of $12 on the 6 and 8 on myself with a $5 pass line and double odds and only one place bet of either the 6 or the 8 on the chicken feeders. If someone gets hot, after a few wins, I’ll slowly increase my bets. For me this is the best way to proceed. I’ll be relaxed and I won’t sweat the money so much. The 10K I took was money I was just saving for a boat but then I found I have these per-cancerous lesions and the doctor said to stay out of the sun. So, I’m making craps my recreational activity.

Double Down Dave responds

Thanks for the quick responses. I think I understand the philosophy that GTC has. The more money backing you the better. You play on a short bankroll and you sweat the action. It’s hard to be an advantage player when you’re worried about losing.

fscobe responds

Yes, these are general figures. You can bet a combination of place and come/pass line. On random rollers, if you can afford the spread, it’s best to go the Pass/Come route after the 5-Count since the game is random and you want to have the best mathematical chance — meaning you want to face the lowest house edge.

Wagner Posts a Question

Frank, are you saying that your figures apply equally to those who play almost every day and those who go to casinos maybe once a month or every two months?

fscobe responds

I guess they would apply to those who live in a casino town and those who visit a few times a year but with some caveats. For example, if you live in a casino town such as Las Vegas, you have to be very careful about going on tilt and playing every day even if your throw is off in the hopes of fixing it at the tables. This could crush your bankroll. You can also look to play at empty tables or tables with only one or two other shooters.

Living in a casino town means that you can afford to abandon any session if things just don’t feel right because tomorrow, as Scarlet O’Hara said, "is another day." Unfortunately, those who go to casinos only every so often don’t have the luxury of dabbling here and there because their casino tomorrow could be six months from now. They face the very real problem that they are so anxious to play they can’t tear themselves away from a losing session.

I guess, Wagner, the individuals will have to understand their own psychology in these cases. The bankroll figures are just guidelines, my opinions really, but how you apply them is up to you.

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