Come Bettng versus Place Betting, Part One, by numerous responders
Wagner posts the question
Would the folks on this board like to weigh in on this hot topic. Which is better to do, come betting or Place betting?
Carl responds
The percentages are definitely with the come bettor, especially if he takes odds on the smallest come bet he makes. Players who play a lot will notice that percentage difference in their game. I mean if you place the 5 or 9 and face a 4 percent edge, you will lose more than 8 times what you’d lose on a come with odds bet. That has to affect you.
Doc Holliday responds
Always a good subject. The come bet with odds reduces the house edge against you. However, the come bet itself is a contract bet and you have no control over it. You also have to hit the number twice to have it pay. The place bet. Higher advantage to the house. You have control over the bet. You can call it off when you want. You only have to hit the number once to get paid.
Advantages and disadvantages on both sides.
I’m a place bettor.
Doc
Double Down Dave responds:
When I was young and foolish, I didn’t follow the math. Now I do. Age has some benefits. I’d rather lose 50 cents or less per $100 wagered on chicken feeders than $1.52 or more by placing the numbers.
SI Man responds:
Even as a $5 player, you are better off, slightly, by using Come betting than by placing the 6 and 8. It’s a tenth of a percent. If you can afford to take even single odds, the Come bet is overwhelmingly superior to place betting. On non-chicken feeders, a whole new approach is probably necessary. These shooters are avoiding the 7 during the heat of the game and so come bets might not be the way to go on them.
Billy The Kid responds:
The power of the come bet is its advantage when it is in the come or on the line. This is a great bet on the initial roll, but after that roll turns into a bad bet since that number must repeat. When the 7 or 11 doesnt show on that first roll the power of that contract bet is gone.
After the first roll, to lower the H/A, you must now BET MORE in free odds thus increasing your exposure. In years past a single or double odds game was the standard, and in some jurisdictions remains so. In Europe, on cruise ships and at many Native American casinos single/double odds are what is offered. In many jurisdictions higher odds multiples are now offered. Have the casinos done this to give players a better deal? Do the casinos do anything to give players a better deal? This notion is absurd. They want the players to bet and risk more so that the standard deviation and fluctuations will work on their limited bankroll. To take advantage of higher odds multiples a player must have a much larger buy in than most players can risk. H/A has its place but risk vs bankroll is just as important since you can’t bet if you are broke.
Look at the relationship between these bets taking into account the H/A, and what amount is at risk. Most players play at the $10 – $25 level number Come bet w/odds place bet
6/8 $5 w/$10= $17 $15 would pay $17
5/9 $5 w/$10= $20 $15 = $21
4/10 $5 w/$10= $25 $15 = $27 As you can see if you risk $15 or less the place bet pays the same or more.
A careful shooter should reduce the appearence of the 7 and should also reduce the 11 and show more box numbers. If you believe this to be the case, and I certainly hope you do, then the power of the come bet is reduced by the reduction of the power combination of the winning 7/11. If you do the math assuming a reduction in the seven and increasing the number of box numbers the H/A changes and there is a point where place bets will become an advantage play,and the H/A of the come bet will be increased.
Taking higher odds will reduce the H/A but you must bet more unless you can play at a higher odds, lower min game. They are out there but are hard to find. $10 min games are becoming the norm so if you need to risk less come bets may have too much exposure for you. Its a trade off for the player, risk less against a higher H/A or more against a lower H/A. There is a point where the expected loss will be the same.Come bets wagered on an unknown shooter is the best way to bet if you can stand the losses.
Billy the Kid
ACPA posts the question
Does the thought process change when a careful shooter is rolling. I believe many careful shooter, I know I do, use a seven set on the comeout. If successful, they wipe out all the come bets that you got established before they made the prior point and had a come out roll.
Noah
Dominator responds
If you know who the careful shooter is then you should know what his moves are. I use the all 7 set on the comeout so come betting on me wouldn’t be good. My opinion is that on any random roller the comebet is the best to use because of the payout being in true odds on the odds bet. You can not every forget and abuse the math of the game of craps. On a careful shooter regardless if you know them or not, I would use place bets.
If you don’t know them I would wait out the 5-count and then place the 6 and 8. In Tunica I would also buy the 4 or 10 since you only have to pay the vig if the bet wins.
Dominator
Pitt Boss responds
In higher limit games, $10 and higher, where the odds are set up like LV strip rules (3-4-5 x odds) I believe it is better to use place betting and regression rather than straight come bets.
Say I put out a $10 come bet which gets moved to the 8, I would have to take an additional $50 in odds to take full advantage of the odds. At 5x odds HA is cut to .326%, well that’s great right? Only problem is my payoff is the same as a place bet ($70), and unless I’m on-off then I’m not on the number anymore (unless I place) then I have to take a pass line bet to “protect” my flat bet after a point has been made. But now the pass line bet is exposed to the 2-3-12.
Here’s another problem I face with the 3-4-5 x’s odds. If I make a $5 come bet, and it goes to the 4 or 10, then take full odds at $15; I now have $20 on the four. If it hits I get paid $35. But if I were to buy the 4-10 for $20 (in Vegas I can for $1 after the payoff) then I would receive $39 for the same amount of money at risk. I would not take a pass line bet, but I’ll go inside, say $110, take two hits and regress to $66 inside, two more hits regress to $44 inside, from there I’ll do full press and take on ind. numbers.
If I were to use a similar method for come bets, my payoffs will be lower, and I’ll have more time and exposure on the table. I want to make a small profit and be out of there ASAP on CF’rs.
One last thing I don’t like about come betting, then I’ll move on to why I like it. Majority of casinos now days don’t count the odds on come bets and pass line bets for comps. That’s because they are a no-advantage bet to the house and don’t count favorably into the theoretical win-loss. On the other hand, on place bets, I’m always getting credit for my play, even with regressions and when the bets are turned off.
However I do like come bets if the table is a low limit game with 10x’s or higher odds. This way I am not concerned with the exposure of my flat bet, because it is the minimum. At 10x’s odds the HA on the 6 & 8 is only .184% and the payoff can’t match a place bet pays off. My fantasy table would be a $1 min table with 100 x’s odds. Any thoughts?
Pit Bo$$
Billy The Kid responds
Pit Boss,
You and I have the same kind of fantasies, $1 x 100 would be a great game. Casino Royale does come close.
I love to play but usually resist the fun I have playing vs looking for advantage situations, so that I can be more certain of winning. That being said, playing a low limit, high odds allowed game, rooting for numbers to repeat, and then increasing your odds bets as the hand continues, is about as much fun as old guys like me can have. I love the Fiesta Henderson with the $1 x 10 game but avoid the more crowded conditions at Casino Royale.
The last time that The 5 and I were at the Fiesta we played a hand that saw my odds bets go from $5 to $100 on three numbers. It was so much fun, much like watching a horse race with a small wager on a long shot that is coming from behind down the stretch.
Billy the Kid
Steven R. responds
Making the case that you have to "bet more" is only true if you do bet more. When playing you should keep your bets the same, initially, so that a place bet of $25 is not as good as a $5 Come with $20 in odds or a $10 Come with 15 (or 14) in odds.
Billy The Kid responds
Steve,
You have to "bet more" if you are using the come bet to lower the house edge against you. If you don’t bet more after the initial roll by taking or laying odds you shouldn’t use contract bets, unless your bankroll is large enough,and the casino allows higher odds multiples. A $25 place bet may or may not be as good as a place bet depending on how you look at it, and why you are betting it. Your examples when applied to the 5/9 is IMO incorrect. In this case the come bet pays $35 and so does the place bet,and if you are at certain casinos in MS the place bet pays more. If the come bet is $10 with $14 it pays only $31 where risking $4 less would pay $28.
If the same example is applied to the 4/10 the place bet pays the same ($45) or if the casino allows an automatic buy bet, it will pay more ($49). Considering the 6/8, the place bet pays the same ($29) or $28 if you use the correct bet of $24. If you play where you can only take double odds, like my home casino then this is moot since double odds don’t offer much in they way of any betting adjustments, so you must raise your flat bet when winning. Remember that if you are reducing the number of sevens that you toss, the come bet looses its punch.
I think that careful shooters that have verified their advantage will be better off using place bets since they can be adjusted before or after every roll to suit your current circumstances and only need to be rolled once to win. When betting on unknown shooters come bets will be superior since you will win that come bet more often with the seven out, and in fact you should be rooting for that 7 so that you can win the bet and get the dice back sooner.
Billy the Kid
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