You should not be counting any rolls where you are setting for sevens in determining your SRR.

If you tell me how many sevens you threw during those 133 come out rolls where you were setting for sevens I can calculate your true SRR.

But if you are saying you were using the hardway set the entire time and just happened to throw 133 sevens during come out rolls then that would all count in the SRR. The dice don’t know the difference between a come out roll and a point cycle roll. A seven with the hardway set on a come out roll is just good luck with a bad throw.

Skinny Thank you for your in put . I use different sets on come out rolls ALL the time as to try and hide from more heat then I want to deal with .
I will start practice with only one set and see if the out come gets better .
As far as what set I used for those 133 rolls it may have been different set not just one . But I do go with a 6 and 5 on top on most come out rolls . If you go back and read a post I made on come out rolls you will see why I have done this in the past .
I am trying to change some of my bad habits . This is a journey and at times it is hard to change .
I like all that you give to this site . The info that you give is great . I did notice that while putting the numbers that I did roll a few hard ways 2 in a row at times . Which I never did notice before . On this next trip I am going to try the hard ways when I roll .
Also those rolls were different hard way sets . So I will change my practice to one set and only one for say 2,000 rolls to see what the difference is if any and let you know .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

In addition, I believe that the roll recorder requires/assumes the hard ways set. You are not only recording throws for which you are setting for 7, but you’re messing with the other statistics of smart Craps.

True
To use Smart Craps and all its features, you need to throw with the hardway set at all times

Dom

My next 2.000 throws will be that way . So I can see what difference is .I will let Skinny know when have this done .I decided to use set with 4s on top and 5s facing the other end of table . I also use one red die and one green die .With the red one to the left . I record them this way .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

"Finisher" wrote: My next 2.000 throws will be that way . So I can see what difference is .I will let Skinny know when have this done .I decided to use set with 4s on top and 5s facing the other end of table . I also use one red die and one green die .With the red one to the left . I record them this way .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Finisher I suspect NFF or Billy may weigh in on this one but dice of different colors have very subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) differences in weight and physical characteristics. You would be better off if you took a Sharpey or some other marker and marked a couple of pips on one die and not the other so you could tell left from right and use dice of the same color and even better if they are out of the same package, much like you would see in a casino.

I used to do the same and I am sure the differences are mostly small but to get the most accurate picture possible, I would use same color dice.

JB

Can Do .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

What Jawbones said is correct. You should not use 2 different dice for practice, especially if you are recording rolls. The dice may not have the same weight or density. That can affect the outcome slightly and sometime in a major way.

NFF

OK I have used one set . The 4/4 on top and rolled almost 2,000 rolls . Will give results in a day or two . Will inter into smart craps first . I did NOT set for 7s at all for these rolls . Also used the same number dice as suggested .
I did have one REAL bad session were I had an SRR of like 3 . I guess I should have stopped .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Remember that it takes 5000 trials to give any statistical analysis validity

Dom

Dom I just wanted a look see before next trip .Which will be in a few days .
Good Rolling. 😀

Well did 2049 rolls with 339 7s not what I wanted to see . Out of that 95 were come out 7s . This gave me an SRR of 6.04 .
Hope to do better when I get to casino .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Finisher,

What percentage of the sevens were 6-1?

Of the throws that were not seven, what percentage were not on axis? Meaning how many throws had a 6 or a 1 in the result, and how many were on axis?

NFF

NF5 is right on where he is going to take this – if most were 5/2 or 4/3 you are on axis and that is a good thing. Actually in Smart Craps you would get a positive imputed roll when you record a 5/2 or 4/3

Dom

I think that this turned out to be just average as far as that goes . It was 97 7s that were 6/1 . I was hoping that it would be less . The first few pages did not have vary many but it did get higher as I looked into it . On days that I rolled a lot there were more so MAYBE I should have just not rolled so many times ?
So I looked back and saw that I had 4 sessions that I rolled 152 rolls with 7 7s that were 6/1 A 163 roll that had 11 7s that were 6/1 ,a 141 roll with 5 6/1 7s and a 131 roll with 4 6/1 7s . Which did not seem to bad ?
Any help with this Thank you .
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

There isn’t a question as your data showed that if you throw too many times for too long, you will get tired and probably be off with your grip and throw. Even in a casino we always recommend just 3 turns with the dice and then take a break.

I would roll 100X’s of recording. The way I do it is a little warm up and then record 20 – 30 rolls and stop

Dom

Finisher,

You always say that you stay at the tables way too long. I am not criticizing as everyone should do what they want. Maybe this is proof for yourself though that staying at the tables too long can be a detriment to your bankroll and maybe this will be the incentive you need to finally change your ways if you really want to. Enjoy your upcoming trip!

Getagrip I will TRY real hard to not stay at the table as long as I have in the past . I do love to play craps even tho it may not seem like I do when I am at the table .I do take way more breaks then I use to .
You are SO right that it would be better if I made that change . I have changed my way of betting on others .I find it hard to walk away if I am the only one at the table and have won some . The dice do come back fast if you are the only one at the table .
Dom if you are on a table and the only one and have rolls in teens and twenties would you still stop at turn 3 ?
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Finisher,
This is something I have just learned in the last year so I will pass it on. Others may say well "of course" I already knew that. When you are the only one at the table they may push the dice to you fast as usual because they want to make money and the dealers are probably a little bored and want something to do. Just know that if you are the only one at the table you are TOTALLY in control of the tempo of play. If you want a little rest or time to think a little about something then don’t pick the dice up immediately. Control the pace you want and if it is slower then slow it down and if the pace you like is fast then pick them up right away. I sometimes will let the dice stay in front of me for several minutes without picking them up to finish a conversation with one of the workers or box. I like a slower pace than many players. Anyway, don’t let them make you feel rushed. You can even say I need a little rest as my back aches a little or whatever.

Of course, as soon as only one other player shows up to play then the pace of the game goes back to the casino to manage and your control of the tempo ends. Hope this idea might help you a little.

Finisher,

I still would like to know the total number of rolls, and the total number of rolls that had a 6 or a 1 in them. I need all of the rolls including the results that were seven.

NFF

Finisher, please try to put together what NF5 needs

2 -3 turns of the dice is really all I do especially if it a busy table. On a table where I am alone It might be more. I let my feelings and how the dice are looking to let me know if I should stick around for one more turn

Dom

NF5 Well I did 2,049 rolls .
I had 339 7s
108 were 6/1 with 26 were come out 7s .
111 were 5/2 7s with 30 come out 7s .
120 were 3/4 7s with 37 come out 7s .
It seems to me to be in the norm for any shooter at this time .
So I will keep up the practice to see if this can get any better with more rolls .
I did notice that with the use of same set had fewer come out 7s . I also relaxed on those come out sets but did set the dice with hard way were as in other post I used different sets .
I thought that I had rolled a lot less 6/1 s then what the reading showed .
Maybe I will try a different hard way set next .
Also had 183 that were hard ways .
Hope you can do any thing with this . I did have a few sessions that I would have busted if I was playing with money .I also did have a few long rolls ,but nothing past 35 .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Just so I understand Finisher – you used a different set for the come out roll?
To calculate your SRR you should be using the hardway set for every roll

When you say you will use a different hardway set next time, I am assuming that you mean that you are going to put a different hardway on top – correct? Remember that doesn’t make a difference

Also, one thing You did roll many more hardways out of random – that is good. And in smart craps where we would calculate you SRR comeout rolls are meaningless. The 4/3 or 5/2 actually would be a positive result in smart craps because you are keeping the diceon axis

Dom

Hi Dom On the post about the 3186 rolls I used a different set on come out rolls . I then decided to try the hard way set only for 2,000 rolls just before going to Vegas . As Skinny said that would be better .
So I did with this 2049 rolls . It did seem to me that there were less come out rolls .
I did bet the hard ways this trip and did make 3 hard 10s that I did get up to 10.00 on but did not hit it for that 10.00 bet .
I did not change my set for these 2049 rolls but did relax a little on the come out rolls .
I guess that I should stick to one set and see how I do .
I will have a month and half of practice before going back to a casino again .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

For 2049 rolls a random roller would expect 341 sevens.
For any given specific 7 combo a random roller would expect 114.
Your results are very close to these.

As to your hard ways results. You state that you had 183 hard ways. If this is referring to your total number of Hard 4s, 6s, 8s and 10s combined you are statistically influencing the dice. A random roller would expect 227 hard ways out of 2049 rolls. 3 standard deviations (SD) less would be 185. So yeah!, you are showing statistically significant influence on the dice. Unfortunately it is in the opposite direction.

Some other numbers to look at:
For 2 or 12 the mean (average) a random roller would expect is 57. 49 or fewer (1 standard deviation (SD)) is good, 34 or fewer (3SD) is statistically significant.
For 3 or 11 mean is 114, 103 (1SD) is good, 82 (3SD) is significant.
For 4 or 10 mean is 171, 183 or more is good, 208 or more is significant.
For 5 or 9 mean is 228, 242 is good, 270 is significant.
For 6 or 8 mean is 285, 300 is good, 332 is significant.

"Finisher" wrote: NF5 Well I did 2,049 rolls .
I had 339 7s
108 were 6/1 with 26 were come out 7s .
111 were 5/2 7s with 30 come out 7s .
120 were 3/4 7s with 37 come out 7s .
It seems to me to be in the norm for any shooter at this time .
So I will keep up the practice to see if this can get any better with more rolls .
I did notice that with the use of same set had fewer come out 7s . I also relaxed on those come out sets but did set the dice with hard way were as in other post I used different sets .
I thought that I had rolled a lot less 6/1 s then what the reading showed .
Maybe I will try a different hard way set next .
Also had 183 that were hard ways .
Hope you can do any thing with this . I did have a few sessions that I would have busted if I was playing with money .I also did have a few long rolls ,but nothing past 35 .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Finisher,

I still would like to know the total number of rolls, not just the rolls resulting in 7, that had a 6 or a 1 in the outcome. This is assuming you were using the hardway set for those rolls, otherwise no knowledge can be ascertained from that.

What other sets were you using in these rolls?

NFF

NF5 Was that not enough info on post on the 11th ? If not I will try to add what you are looking for .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Finisher, What he is asking is how many of the rolls had a 6 or 1 on one of the die. Ie, how many were 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-6. He may want to know how many of the sevens were 1-7 or 6-1 also. I’m sure NFF will correct me if I have interpreted him incorrectly.

Noah

I thought that he wanted just the 7s that were 6/1 .Thanks I will have to go back and look .
Will you be going to vegas for great gift wrap up ?
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

No not going to the great gift thing.

Noah

Noah is correct in the information that I am requesting. I only want the information for the rolls that were the Hardway set though.

NFF

NF5 After reading Skinny post I rolled only with hardway set to see if I would have better rolls . So the 2,050 rolls were done with hard way set even on come out rolls . I did try to relax more on come out rolls tho .
So it went like this .
1/2 114 rolls
1/3 114 rolls
1/4 113 rolls .
1/5 113 rolls
1/6 108 rolls .
I was surprised as to how close they were . Skinny would say the math says it ALL .
I am going to use the hard way set for the next month to see what happens . I will try a different hard way set . It seems doing this gives me less come out 7s .
I hope this is what you wanted . It also seems to me that this is just normal . Not to much influence at this time . O I did change from throwing L1 to R1 before throwing these rolls .
I hope after another 3,000 rolls things will look better .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

There are 2 ways to roll any one of those combinations out of 36. Thus a random roller would expect each one of those numbers to come up once every 18 rolls over time.

In 2050 rolls you could expect to see each of those combinations approximately 114 times. That is because 2050/18=113.89 or 114. All those rolls are within 1 standard deviation of the mean.

Your results are identical to what a random roller could expect in 2050 rolls.

Finisher,

As Skinny indicated you are basically random in terms of the frequency of the dice staying on axis. If the dice are not staying on axis, it is because one or both dice have a wobble in their rotation.
This wobble is usually caused by one of two things, or a combination of both. Those things are an improper grip, or opening your hand when the dice are coming out and rolling over the fingertips.

Make sure that your grip is proper. You mentioned that you did better when you focused on your grip. Make sure your middle finger contact is centered between both dice. Make sure the skin contact of the thumb is also centered properly on both dice. Also make sure that your outside fingers are not overlapping the outside edges of the the dice causing one or both to come off with a wobble. Make sure your grip is very light. Once your grip is proper move on to the hand.

You should not be opening your hand to get out of the dice. With a light grip the dice come out whenever the arm speed is fast enough for the centrifugal force to pull the dice off of your thumb and roll over the fingers.
Whenever you open your hand, the middle finger is always in contact with both dice. As your hand opens, the outside fingers begin to come off of the dice. Once the ring finger or the index finger comes off the die early, the middle finger is left in contact with both dice. With proper hand position, the outside fingers act as guide planes to provide an even surface for the dice to roll over when centrifugal force is strong enough to pull them off of your thumb and roll them out over the fingers. Whenever one or both fingers lose contact with a die prematurely, the middle finger is the only influencing factor on that particular die. Without that guide plane provided by the outside finger, one or both dice will come out with a wobble, thus causing the dice to bounce and go off axis.

I suspect your issue is with opening the hand. Work on this stuff, and if you are still struggling, a video session followed by a refresher would do wonders for you.

NFF

I know that for myself, this is something that I continue to work on. To reach the point that I am aware of how the dice are rolling off of my fingers takes a great deal of presence. I try not to let my focus drift while trying to set my muscle memory. It is a real challenge but it has paid off now with dice that seldom wobble. I also found that trying finesse the dice or being too tentative, had the same affect. I did not have enough acceleration in my throw to force the dice to leave my hand on their own. You can’t be afraid either and baby the throw. My two cents.