Try come bets .

Finisher is correct. Come betting is an excellent way to go.

As you said, after the 5 count you can place the the point, but not on the pass line. Place your money in the "box" for the point if you wish. If Doc is blocking and Rose is in position not blocking (she is a lefty) I don’t worry about the point since we have the point covered with her betting. Yes a I will miss a pay day or two but we don’t get greedy.

As to the 25% per cent on chicken feeders, here is what Rose and Doc do. Assuming we are familiar with the GTC person who is rolling & know he is a good roller, after the 5 count we bet the same spread we would bet on ourselves. If your initial spread on yourself or a GTC player you know and have confidence in is, for example $100, you can then bet $25 on the random roller. Assuming a $10 table, we will make one minimal bet for the $10 and single odds of an additional $10 on one and only one number for a total of $20— only 20% of our spread.

Rose and Doc

Agreed with above, but another option that I’ve done with BigDaddy-Revs and Berto, especially today Eyez(!) when the dice were coming from your end, is that because you’re out of the point cycle and may want odds instead of the place (not a huge difference on small bets, but can be as things build up), is to have your neighbor place odds for you. That’s difficult where the odds are limited, but not where we were today and next door where we have 20x and 100x available to us.

If I am blocking for an advantage player I still am a cautious bettor. Several fellas I have practiced with for a long time and know their game better so
will press more if they seem to be on a roll. Always place the 6 and 8 plus one come bet. Just go from there.

OMC

First blockers do nothing but draw extra attention to the group, I never heard a story where the horseman brought their own blockers.

Yes some like them but have they really thought it threw blockers bet different than the rest of the table on the norm, and you can tell they are trying to keep an area clear, they even ask people to move there money at times this can bring major attention to the group.

Attention is trouble waiting to happen.

Now if a floor guy wants to throw you off and he sees that you have a blocker all he has to do is to squeeze a guy in there to disrupt the mojo of the game,
if you need the area clear because you can not move your spot then he is in your head, if your blocker says something to the guy coming into the game it can really cause a disruption, no matter what goes on they have figured out how to throw you off your game and you have lost a place to play without them saying a word, all because of a blocker, the person you have never heard mentioned in any of the four horseman’s stories.

With dice control you first learn to get the dice to leave your hand in a proper fashion or as it has been stated here release from your hand, then you learn to hit a spot, so if your spot is not there to land in and you are not comfortable moving the landing zone your advantage is gone so why play at that time?

If you like the places you are playing then why give them more of a reason to be uncomfortable with what you are doing and to change the rules on you, smaller places are much more likely to remember you and to see what you are doing, give yourself a chance at long term playability, just a thought.

Rule number one if you are not going to make money on your own throw why are you going.

Two if you are in 3 right or left that is along the flat part of the rail, if the shooters dice and anywhere near you he has limited control at the best.

Three now as for the betting you need to be comfortable with what you do so if you loose it will not bother you bet in a fashion that you will not second guess yourself.

Bman

I am sorta on the same page as you are. First to be honest I have had some
of my best long rolls when there were chips in the way and I really had
to concentrate to hit my spot.

Second I have seen several times where guys I was playing with told
people to move their chips so I could roll. First, they have just as
much right on the table as I do, second, now that puts pressure on
me because they just told the people, "hey this guy is special" you
need to move for him.

As far as betting is concerned, we are all over the board, I have heard some
here say they will sit and watch a 40 roll by a random shooter and never
make a bet, then others say well wait 5 rolls and then use a come bet or
place bet or bet 25% of what you would on yourself, or 5 count another GTC
player or don’t 5 count another GTC player.

You need to be uniform in what you are doing, have a game plan. Mine is
1 come bet, and I don’t care who is shooting and I wont make another
come bet until I hit it. If the guy makes a point, I will use a pass bet to cover
the flat on the come bet, if the roll keeps going I will play it.

I am at the table to make money.

gman

We’re talking about the same thing under different circumstances.

First, I absolutely agree with NEVER asking folks to move chips, I’ve been …. ‘corrected’ (in my more immature days….. last year) and I am 100% bought in to the practice of never asking anyone to do anything with their chips, to never correcting a dealer as to why my bet is further out of place, whether it be PL or other, and will adjust accordingly instead of saying anything.

However, part of the conversation was about a group shoot where we have our own folks blocking. I agree that we need to know how to move our target to get around chips, but are easily better off without chips there in the first place. Whether that is a table we’ve walked up to or as in this past Saturday as reported by Scooter, a reserved table where we had clear understanding of who was doing what and where, and the house actually kept others off of the table.

Now granted, we don’t need to draw attention to ourselves and the argument of having a reserved table is certainly open within another discussion I started a month ago, but all of the above are valid within their individual circumstances.

bman, agreed in general with distance, but I practice from the longer positions exactly because I either play on 14′ by myself or with another, or as again on Sat, I was in the hook and simply squared up by the SL3 position and shot really well. Again, it’s practice and having the control to do it. Works sometimes, not at others, just like SL1 or 2. My longest rolls are indeed from SL2 on 14′ and SL3 on 12′. One place I need to practice is SL1, but when I shoot with others who can be successful there, it’s more effective for me to practice out further.

I can tell you that I play often with 3 other GTC instructors. We typically go the four of us so we don’t have/use blockers. Truth of the matter is that if you are a good enough controlled shooter, and you have the practice time under your belt, you don’t need a blocker. Your aim should be perfect at this point. It doesn’t matter how many chips are out there and where they are positioned. You should be able to zero in on a target and hit that spot repeatedly. So although it may be nice to have an open landing zone, I don’t think you should need one.

Midnight

Agreed Mike, nice to have, but usually don’t have them. It’s a rare indulgence!

Hardnine I believe that our ideas of what a controlled shot is may be different.

Now I have seen people that can control the dice from further back it is just far more difficult.

The thing most impressive about your group play is the cohesiveness in there play but I do not know of a place that has put up with group play for very long, first the betting that goes on, the shooter is the one betting and everyone else is five counting with a large group that really bothers them they think they are losing money because all the spots that are not betting from the start.

Now there is the fact that all the people in the end the blockers are placing the point to keep the end clear that is even more obvious that they are doing something completely different than the normal player way more attention, think about it no body places the point in this game.

when a group is so large you have 3 to 7 people passing the dice every time that is not a normal thing, it draws attention to what you are doing it is not normal draws huge attention to what you are doing.

I’m not saying that what you are doing is wrong it is just far to much attention for me, I love to read about all the fun you guys have.

bman, true to a point, but our blockers are absolutely putting bets up right away, and we have a ridiculous number of bettors on the ATS and the sharp shooter bet or fire bet depending on the venue (we’re switching venues so we’re not there as a large group that often), so it’s not quite as apparent as you say. 2-4 of us show up at least twice per weekend at at least one of the venues.

All of your points are valid at some level, and I am absolutely aware of the concerns and share them, so we’re watching for any signals. They see us there individually and see us lose as well.

As far as our ideas of a controlled shot being different, I disagree. It’s not how close you are but how consistent you are from a given spot. I throw 150-200 shots from SL2 every day, if I know SL3 is needed, I’ll practice that spot day in day out. I actually suck at SL1 on 12′, and perhaps that’s for the advanced class to help fix! I’ve worked with most instructors and Billy, Darryl, Mike gave me my current throw which I played during that entire class in Aug and since.

We’re not far apart, brother, and I appreciate the concern, I’m a relative newby, and want it between the eyes. Perhaps I’ll really get it between the eyes this Friday when I walk in!!! 😆

Are your blockers betting the pass line with odds, I would guess not so they are doing some thing out of the norm, I also going to guess that you are all seen together some where in the casino after play is done like eating, valet, getting into cars, the cameras see all.

A controlled shot is not dictated by where you stand but how the dice react.

There are several instructors that prefer one and a half to two but none of them shoot from three.

You guys have a great thing going and are a very cohesive unit those are the best traits to have, there is a lot to be learned from you guys and your exploits so please keep us informed we want the knowledge you acquire, all I’m doing is sharing from my experiences at the tables.

bman, noted and appreciated.

Not only were we seen together elsewhere, remember, this particular one was a reserved table, and again, we’ve already gone there in last month’s thread, but the management at this venue actually comped all for buffet and kept asking what we wanted. Now granted, the other venue is not going to do that, but this venue wanted us there… at least for the moment. 😀

We’ll continue to learn from each other!

I’ve seen a few instructors shoot from 3 or even 2.5 on 14′, or straight out. However, THEY know enough to try it once at a venue and know whether to continue or not! 😀 And yes, there are also some that it’s one of 2 spots or nothing. If you can, you can, if you can’t / won’t, you don’t!

Thanks for the reply’s, Hardnine, OMC, Gman, Bman, Midnight, Doc. Definitely a lot going on in here, but that’s what a forum is all about ….

When I play, I never ask anyone to move their chips. As stated in the first class, you look silly when you do, and then if you still throw that bad number you look even worse, so why did they have to move their chips. For me, I hope that they notice where the dice are going, and maybe get a clue to move them on their own if they are close, just in case they land a little funny. I’ve actually had a couple instances where they did move them on their own … surprised the heck out of me, and helped to not change my spot. My control is not perfected enough to be able to zero in on the same spot every time, so I like to have as much room as possible.

I also will shoot from where I am. I may ask a person to step back and give a fat man a little room to throw, so I can get square to the table, but not move over closer if I’m not at 1. As for the group of us that have played together, as our journey continue’s, I can only hope that we can be as talented as the horsemen. Unfortunately for me, I have never seen them play live, which maybe someday that will happen.

While in the blocking position, when dice are coming towards me, I wouldn’t have a place bet. Sure I could have put one down, but I would much rather give the shooter as much of an area as possible. No chips distracting in case they were a little short or what ever. Sure, I lost some percentage by not being able to take odd’s, but it was for the betterment of the group playing in my mind, for which I was willing to take that hit. I would place the point, and a second number. When dice were going the other way, a pass line with crew love on top, and odd’s is the way I was playing, along with other numbers as the roll progressed. HardNine, as to your comment about putting odd’s on with someone else’s PL bet, I’ve actually done that before, but after the 3rd time was told that we couldn’t do that, they had to have their own line bet if they wanted odd’s, even though I was placing the chips down. It was my home casino, so I just apologized, threw them a chip for my mistake, and went along our game. No big deal. So, I’m not sure if any of the other places would allow it, but I won’t take that chance.

I thought that it was said at my first class, or maybe it was a blog post about playing in teams, that when you play in a group, and if you are in the hook, you are actually a blocker too. So, if you play with 3 or more people that shoot from SL, would you, or maybe I should say why wouldn’t one of the people go to SR 3 to help keep the zone clear, if at all possible? I know you don’t want to do anything to bring special attention to yourselves, but would that, especially if you don’t firedrill around to let that person shoot?

But in reading all, and trying to keep it all straight as far as the main original question, seems like, even if you are blocking, staying with the GTC way of the 25% and doing it with the come or place bet would be the way to go with group shooting and being the blocker.

Again, never trying to be confrontational, or dis-respectful, or anything like that, just trying to fill my mind with some of the best judgement and knowledge out there, so all is appreciated!!! As I sure most of the others are as well.

Hard Nine I would listen to Bman .I will not mention how much attention he gets or for what reasons but he knows and has changed some of his way to the better in the last few years at least I hope . He is a great ambassador for GTC . Even tho he is not an instructor . He has show many students the way the game should be played in the casino .
He is always willing to give advise to new players and meet up with them if possible .
But I had to laugh a little since I know him and have play a little with him . I wish that my shot was as good as his tho .
Bman if you read this I will give you a call when I need that new felt . Thanks for the offer to help out .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Interesting thread. As far as betting while blocking goes I 5 count then come bet. Occasionally I place the 6 or 8. This is the way I bet on CF’ers as well. I think the points to keep in mind are try to not put any chips in the shooter’s landing area and don’t do anything to distract the shooter or slow down the game ie. late betting, argueing with other players or dealers. Now since I rarely play with other GTC’rs the places I play are very used to how I play so if it comes to pass that I am at a table with a fellow dice controller my play looks normal to them.

Good thread. A lot of topics. Adding some perspective from my experience(s).

When I have forgotten to put down a pass line bet I’ve asked my throwing buddy (Art) to put some behind for me. He takes chips from his rack and puts down additional chips. I give him at a later time those chips. This is not done openly and I never do it with people I do not know. This keeps it out of sight of the dealers and box person.

Moving Chips – again I have asked people to do this. It is not done openly. It is done on the QT. Case in point – at Golden Nugget dice were at my end of the table straight out. I’m SR1. Two people to throw before I throw. I walked done to the guy & his girlfriend at SL hook and told I’m a little superstitious and hate hitting chips, could he move them to give me a clear landing zone. He said not problem. Again this was done low voice away from the table and before the dice were close to me. Nothing is/was or has ever been done publicly. On that particular round I hit the all with a nickel across as the guy in the hook also has. Afterwards I gave it a tip showing my gratitude. I don’t see anything wrong as long as it is on the QT.

Shooting in Team – the times we have shot in teams there has been absolutely no arguing with other players. Everyone knows the rules (blockers and shooters) late betting is not an issue with the group. A lot of the normal table disruptions are completely absent from the last three team shoots we’ve had.

A lot of the rules / do’s and don’t stated in previous thread seem to be for public tables. My demeanor when at public tables is to keep to myself and avoid being a spectacle. I agree with a lot of the do’s and don’t in a public forum, but will approach some of those in back row discussions.

Hope this adds to everyone’s perspective.