As I go out on my weekly visits to local casinos, I notice that there are a lot of ‘players’ that like to bet on the feature bet, this being the Small, Tall, & All bet. Watching some of these players as they bet anywhere from a 3-4-3 ($10), or a 2-11-2 ($15), or a 3-16-3 ($22), or the 5-15-5 ($25). Do I bet this bet, of course, it is the gambler in me, but I generally keep it to $3 or $4. But that makes me place my line bet to hedge my feature bet, in case big ugly comes out to protect myself, which in turns makes me bet the world or craps bet to yet protect my line bet … and it goes on. Do I understand that these are the bad bets, and to bet them on every shooter, because you never know when they may hit it, makes them even worse. Yes I do, but I still can not get the gambler out of me to protect my funds and not place those bets, hopefully in time. Now, watching some of the other players that make that feature bet, some don’t hedge their bet, to which I say good for them, except for when the shooter throws (4) comeout sevens in a row, then a crap, only to follow with a couple more 7’s (as I have done on a few occasion’s) followed by a P.S.O. Then they are upset with the shooter, as they lost that bet 5 times or more, without a single payout. But that is their issue. These people are really playing the features, not craps.
Now, the reason I bring that up, is I recently visited a different casino for myself, due to wanting to get from the normal, and it looked fairly decent to travel to and go play. The ones I usually go to are within a 20 minute drive for me, this one took about an 90 minutes. It was a little different then what I was used to, little darker inside, as well as having louder music, but didn’t seem to bad. So we walked around looking at the different slots, and then walked around the table game area. They had 2 crap tables open, and was opening a third. (1) $5, and the other (2) were $10. At a new casino, I always like to watch the crew & players for a little bit. The first thing that I noticed, was none of the table’s had any extra bonus feature bets. No Small/All/Tall, no Sharpshooter, no fire. They did have hopping bets. At first, I thought, I can’t believe that they didn’t have any of them, and was considering not playing due to this, but I was there, the prices were right, and the tables were not packed. Now, as I watched, it seemed to me that most of the players wouldn’t be on the table very long either. So, my spot was open as I watched, and when I was ready so I bought in to see what would happen.
My first three or four times with the dice were nothing to speak of, not more than 5’s, I would say. In between my rolls, a couple of chuckers had rolls in the high teen’s to low 20’s that kept me in the game. Then I caught a decent 23 hand myself. Had my money back with profit. Was happy, but then I bet on next couple shooters as my adrenaline was flowing, so the profit faded out. But the thing that amazed me the most as I think back, was that my hand of 23 probably only took about 15 minutes, as there was no stick changes during it. Without having any ‘feature’ bets out there, the game kept going. There wasn’t a lot of C&E, or horn bets during the roll (just mine on the come out). Granted there was only 3 people on each side, but the stick person kept the dice coming back is short time as there were not lots of payouts, which seemed nice for me. Also, on the chuckers, I was able to limit my bets on them better than I usually do, as I wasn’t betting the passline, because of the feature bet. This makes it easier for me to use a 5 count. To me, these tables let me play craps. I have had conversations with some people about how I can make more money on table just playing the numbers then on the feature bets. Let me catch a shooter that hits the same number that I’m on 20 times, and my place bet will be maxed at hit 16 (assuming a $5,000 max table), just because I tend to be overly aggressive when I play.
Which brings me to another conversation that I had with a couple dealers and boxmen as well recently. During play, when I had my 4 & 10 up to $20, they asked if I wanted to buy them. I told them no thank you because to me it isn’t worth buying until I have it to at least $30, as I’m not worried about that $2, maybe $5 or more, but not $2. Of course one had to say ‘but at $20 if you buy it you get $40, without the buy you only get $36.’ To which I had to correct him and say if I buy it at $20, I’m actually in for $21. He agreed. Then, if it does hit, I would get $39, as you will take the next vig. He agreed again. So, I continued to say, so actually, I would only get paid $38 for the first buy on a $20 bet, or $36 without the buy …. hmmmm sounds like $2 to me. He thought for a second, then agreed, and continued to watch the dice. I also said, if I was going to put more money out there on those numbers, I would make them put bets as the odd’s pay better, and I’m not paying the casino to get my money. But for the conversation, when the 10 did hit, I threw the crew the $1 chip for their toke box.
I do totally believe that if one holds the dice the same way (grip), throws them the same (arm swing), hits the same spot on the table (landing zone), the end result should be the same. To me, that is logical, and thought that before I found GTC. This is why I believe in the GTC course’s. Do I believe I’m in the 10% that is talked about in the premier class …. unfortunately not. But I do believe that with the GTC wisdom, knowledge and help of the 10%ers, I will be able to avoid the big ugly more often, and hopefully be able to be in the other percentage of students (not sure what that number is) that sticks with it to be better craps players, even if they are not in the 10% category.
Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for the comments & your thoughts on these.
Replies:
Posted by: Finisher on May 13, 2015, 3:34 pm
I agree that I want to be in the % that you want in and that I can keep playing even if I don’t get to the 10% level .
After you win one of those bets you think that you can win again .Which you may bet it may be some time . Just ask when the last one was hit .They lost 5 bets in a row x how many players ?
This is a journey .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂
Posted by: Dominator on May 19, 2015, 9:27 pm
Let me first say that to get to that 10% that ever truly make it and by making it I mean they are making MONEY, it is not only the throw that has to be mastered, but also the betting. As a matter of fact the betting is JUST as important as the throw. That is why we now have TWO lectures and ONE session on betting for a total of THREE times during the two days, betting is talked about and practiced.
If want to be that gambler and bet those futures, just bet them on yourself! I have written before that those bets I actually like but I don’t think about them till I am close to making them. But you will NEVER see m,e making those bets on anyone else! You must avoid doing this Eyez! And if you are doing this because of "the gambler" in you, then why in God’s name are you hedging them? Please STOP this hedging. You are costing yourself money. You say you don’t want to lose your passline bet. That why are you even in the casino. As soon as you make a bet you are at risk of losing your money. If losing that money scares you that don’t go to a casino. …
Boy Dom are you harsh here you might be saying! 😀 You are right, I am being harsh, but I want to wake you and everyone up! Hedging SUCKS! It doesn’t work! I am sure you don’t want me to get into the %’s of these bets as they might bore you and everyone, but they SUCK! And if losing your future bet scares you, you shouldn’t make it!
You see everyone, this post is exactly why we don’t have every student in the 10%. This dice control thing … the throw …. everyone can learn, but until everyone gets it as far as betting is concerned I fear that my 10% rule will be there for a long time, and people I don’t want that. Our seminars are not cheap, but they are great! You will learn the throw and you will learn about betting, but as the old saying goes … you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.
Dominator
Posted by: getagrip on May 19, 2015, 9:51 pm
Dom,
I have a question for you. I agree that hedging is just a bad bet and a money eater. Here is a discussion I have had before with dice influencers and I am always told I am wrong. Well, I may indeed be wrong but I just have to ask. 🙂
If you have placed a Fire Bet on yourself and you set the fourth or fifth number as your pass line bet then do you start to lay against that point? Almost everyone will say you should do that so you will at least win some money. I really can see their point mathematically and maybe that is all that really matters! I do not do a lay though. If I make this bet then I know what the house vig is and it is astronomical. If I am gambling then I might as well let it play out for the all or nothing thrill of it. I just look at the lay bet as a hedge. . It seems to me that others are just trying to make a very bad bet into a not so bad bet on the back end of it. Just wondering how you and others think about these feature bets in that regard. Thanks!
Posted by: Dominator on May 19, 2015, 10:10 pm
I never lay against it for the reasons you stated…..all you are doing is hedging a very bad bet.
I go back to what I am said above, these futures bets are strictly a "gambling" bet. Even if you have an edge as high as mine, (and I say that humbly), I can’t over come that edge. If you are going to gamble with your money on these bets, than gamble all the way and go for it!
I never think about, lets say the fire bet till I make at least 4 different points. Even going for the 5th point I will not change my set to establish one of the 2 numbers I am missing, but after that 5th number is made, I will then try to change. I love the challenge of the bet. I am trying to think on the all-tall-small bet …… I was in either Tunica or my last trip to CT where I remember Michael saying to me … do you know how close you came to hitting all those numbers!
Dominator
Posted by: getagrip on May 19, 2015, 10:30 pm
Now I feel better!! 😉 😆
Posted by: TommyC on May 20, 2015, 2:58 pm
Posted by: Dominator on May 20, 2015, 3:27 pm
Playing the game in your mind even when you are away from the tables is so important.
If I am taking a trip to the casinos the night before I am counting my rolls instead of counting sheep. Visualize the high 5’s and those long rolls.
It really does work people!
Dominator
Posted by: DavidM on May 20, 2015, 4:23 pm
Posted by: Dominator on May 20, 2015, 5:13 pm
Dom
Posted by: Skinny on May 20, 2015, 5:22 pm
I think you nailed it with your post so I am not going to go over what you have already put so very well.
Every time I read this post it makes my skin crawl. It is filled with what to do wrong with one’s betting. I am going to try to point some things out from a dollar and cents perspective to see if that can help some folks get the idea of why these bets are so bad for you.
This is meant for anyone who thinks playing the feature bets at the casino are okay to do and not very costly. I am going to only discuss the Fire Bet but the same thing pertains to any of the other feature bets or hedges folks have tried to come up with to beat the house.
The odds of making 4 numbers in the fire bet is 1 to 113.
The odds of making 5 numbers in the fire bet is 1 to 609.
The odds of making 6 numbers in the fire bet is 1 to 6,172.
Take a look at how this compares to the payouts.
The payout on making 4 numbers in the fire bet is 24 to 1.
The payout on making 5 numbers in the fire bet is 249 to 1.
The payout on making 6 numbers in the fire bet is 999 to 1.
What the casino pays and what a true payout (rounded to the even dollar amount) would be.
Make 4 numbers in the fire bet and win $24 instead of $113.
Make 5 numbers in the fire bet and win $249 instead of $609.
Make 6 numbers in the fire bet and win $999 instead of $6,172.
So if you actually hit a 6 point fire bet you will be elated because you collect $1,000 for your $1 wager. But the casino is even more excited because they won $5,172 since they did not give you the proper payout. How do you like partnering with the casinos when you make that wager?
Out of the most common proposition bets available on a craps table, the Fire Bet is clearly without a doubt the worst bet on the table!!!
If you were paying attention in class you should recall the instructors discussing how the casino is your partner on every wager you make except for the odds wager on line bets. We call it the House Advantage or House Edge. The casinos do not make payouts equal to the true odds of winning your wagers. By paying you less than you deserve they are essentially your partner on every wager you make with the one exception. Since I brought up the subject of partnering with the casino, let me show you what that means for a wager which GTC does recommend.
When you make a pass line or come bet the casino pays you $1 for every $1 you wager. They should be paying you $1.014 instead. So if you put $5 on the pass line when you win that wager you will collect $5 instead of $5.07. The house only keeps 7 cents for every $5 you wager on a line bet. If you wager $5 on the Fire Bet and hit it for 6 points the house keeps $25,860 from what they should have paid you.
Let me repeat that:
You bet $5 on the Pass Line and the house keeps 7 cents as your partner when you win.
You bet $5 on the Fire Bet and the house keeps $25,860 as your partner when you hit it for 6 points.
How many of you still think the fire bet is a good idea?
Posted by: Dominator on May 20, 2015, 6:31 pm
I was really hoping that you would take this post up with the math. I am so glad you did!
Thank you!
Dom
PS …… I just want to bring it up again that the response are intended for EVERYONE and not to Eyez who started this post. I also want to thank Eyez for this post because it brings up so many very important things to remember
Posted by: Eyez on May 21, 2015, 11:51 pm
Thanks for the Reply’s on this post. I do take it personally, but only to the point that you are trying to help me & others, the brutally honest approach, but for me, I’m okay with that. So, I don’t get upset with you or others on the site when the comments are made, only more upset with myself for not using the discipline that I should. The teachers, and students as well, on this site are here to offer the guidance needed to be the best that they can. After the first class, I started off okay, but never stuck with the betting, even though I would tell myself ‘use the 5 count’ on the way to the casino. My throw, some days better than others. As I have played with a couple other GTC players (Square Dice & Scooter), and I tried to pick up some things that they were doing different, as it was working for them. The other day a couple of friends were playing on a table that I was trying to refuse to play on, but they stayed & insisted that I get on as I had the ‘hotter’ hand earlier in the day. Finally I gave in to play. I tried a couple different things with my toss and ended up having a couple nice hands. Even though I did have those couple hands, I know that this place has 2 other tables that I would much rather throw on, so I will still avoid this table as much as possible.
Again, I for one appreciate the input, it helps to remind me of the end game on how to get where I really want to be. With plenty of comps from the casino(s), and cash in my account’s. This game of craps in which I do love to play, as it is my vice and what I do to relax, as I don’t think about anything else, but the game. Posting this was to help me to realize what I am doing wrong, as well as to help others see what they may be doing wrong as they begin or continue thru the journey.
Posted by: JesJac on May 22, 2015, 1:53 am
I thought it was you can lead a whore to culture but you cannot make her think.
Posted by: Dr Crapology on May 22, 2015, 4:28 pm
Once over heard a player ask the dealer "what is the fire bet." The dealer replied " you make the bet and we take your money!!" Maybe that dealer was a little smarter.
Here is a general rule for everyone—if the casino offers a "feature or extra" for big money on any table game the vig is usually much much higher. Stay with the basic game that has been around for years.
Doc
Posted by: Finisher on May 23, 2015, 4:29 am
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂
Posted by: Eyez on March 14, 2016, 10:15 pm
Posted by: Berto on March 14, 2016, 10:16 pm
Posted by: Finisher on March 14, 2016, 10:46 pm
Would like to see the results after 10 trips or turns of the dice .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂
Posted by: HardNine on March 14, 2016, 11:00 pm
