You shouldn’t have to maintain tension in the fingers or forearm to maintain the grip. Once your dangling your arm over the table try to feel all the tension fad away, actually will it away.

I relax my arm by letting it dangle and rotate in a small decreasing spiral down to where its hanging lose from the shoulder. /there it hangs quiet for a second while I concentrate on the target then I start the tiny back swing and away we go.

Stephen C is completely correct. The new grip is strange to you now. With practice it will feel natural and you will not need any tension in the fingers, hand or arm to grip the dice.

Hard is our heads, difficult it is to make change.

lmao

I find after a week of solid practice, whatever change I made starts to feel natural.

Seeing as he created a post about this interesting topic, I didn’t think Stealthman would mind if I posted part of my response originally sent in answer to his email.

Stealthman,

Dom’s direction is spot-on. fingertips means less skin adhesion, which will mean less skewing and decay in your toss.

You’ll see positive results and more consistency from these changes I’m sure.

For now you are breaking old habits and muscle memory and learning something new. Be patient, stick with it and give it time to groove in. It will become second nature before you know it.

As for the loose arm / forearm tension, this "thing of ours" is an athletic endeavor in many respects. Be sure you warm up, stretch and shake it out to loosen up before practice or playing. Don’t overdo it, especially early on.

Hope this helps. Keep posting and letting us know about your progress…

😎 😎 😎

I am seeing the following happening with the change to the pronounced C grip.

I am having a very hard time without the gripper helping keeping the fingers perpendicular to the dice. As I curl into the C, the angle of my fingers tilt away from 90 degrees.

If I am using the gripper, the fingers start in a pronounced C, but that is by putting downward pressure on my fingers to get them to curl into position.

Any ideas!?

Results are still showing one die seeming to go off axis in the air. One is flat the other tilted.

Best suggestion I can make is relax. Nothing says you need to contort yourself and make the experience uncomfortable. I think your working to hard to do just that.
And your over exaggerating the C. Soften the curves. Couldn’t find pics that demonstrated what I wanted so fonts will have to do.

Using the key board Capitol O and the number pad zero 0. The first thing you notice is that the Capitol O is rounder, fatter the zero on the other hand is scrunched up, compressed, more vertical. You have to force your fingers to make a zero while the O is more relaxed.

Relax there’s no need to have your fingers contacting the dice at a 90 degree angle like the 0. A relaxed comfortable O will serve just as well.

Remember 0 bad ……. O Good O O O O O O O O hm

Hi!

Of course, it is hard to comment without being able to see your hand.

My only suggestion is to maybe check your thumb to see if you might need to make a slight adjustment there.

With my own grip I know I have to change my thumb slightly to make the "C" grip comfortable. When I use the pads of my fingers on the dice I am able to keep my thumb fairly straight at the back of the dice (I still use the side of my thumb centered in back because I am unable to grip it straight on). When I use the "C" grip I have to really bend/angle the first joint of my thumb quite a bit to be able to use the same part of the skin of my thumb on the dice as before. If I use a different area of my thumb I don’t feel like I have the same control.

Hope you are able to figure it all out. Changes can be frustrating at first but usually well worth it in the end.

Good Luck! 🙂

Stephen and get-a-grip -thanks

My 90 degree problem is not having the fingers be pointed at the dice but the relationship of the fingers to the dice. Looking at the dice from behind or the front the fingers extend from the dice at 90 degrees. With the tight C they are angled away from my body (right hand grip).

My old grip was the pads and I did find out this past year that over time I slowly tilted my three fingers away from 90 degrees. I finally caught it and corrected it.

With the new grip I am paying a whole bunch of attention to the grip and therefore the question about tilting my fingers to the side. Might not have been the clearest with the description.

Again with the gripper I can maintain the angle, but without as I curl my fingers to get to the C, they angle or roll to the side.

Would this describe your problem. Instead of your fingers being on the dice like this: ||| they are more like this: /// or ?

I’ve had this same problem when I went to the tips from the pads. My thumb was shifting causing my fingers to tilt. I needed to change my thumb position and angle to correct the problem.

Stealthman,

As others have said, it is difficult to offer suggestions without first seeing your grip.

If your front fingers are tilted away from your body after you grip the dice, try the following:

1. Focus your gripper drills and "C" grip practice on bringing your hand straight down onto the dice.

2. If you are gripping using your "wing" fingers on the dice sides to keep them from splitting, the same thing can be accomplished by insuring your middle finger is "plumb" on the dice before bringing your index and ring fingers off the sides and into place.

3. With your fingers properly in place, allow your thumb to grip the dice with whatever part of your thumb tip contacts the dice naturally. Although our human hand shape varies somewhat, natural contact will likely be favoring the inside portion of your thumb tip, the side toward your index finger.

Keep in mind that the grip not only needs to be correct, but repeatable.

I hope this helps. Keep us posted on your progress.

😎 😎 😎

"sevenout" wrote: Would this describe your problem. Instead of your fingers being on the dice like this: ||| they are more like this: /// or ?

Exactly!

Timmer, without the gripper, my fingers will not take that C shape easily. I have to grab the dice and then flex the fingers into the C!

As I said not seeing the results I need without the gripper!

Stealthman,

Just a thought. Try not using the gripper to start, grip the dice and then place the dice back into the gripper and check the results for a correction. Imagine this in your mind and I think it will come around. Good luck!

OMC

All good suggestions have been made. I would make a comparison to taking a golf lesson. Immediately after the lesson your game is totally screwed up for a while as you work what you have learning into your swing (think dice throw).

Keep up th good practice for several weeks and you will be good to go. You are definitely on the right track.

Doc

All right, let’s try this.

I just took my hand without any dice in them and made the oval position as if I were going to grip the dice with my pads. I then turned my hand over and looked at the position of my fingers and thumb. The thumb is fairly straight and I would be able to grip the dice with the flat part of my thumb. The thumb is almost parallel to the middle finger and other fingers.

Next I made the c grip with my fingers without any dice. I did it naturally without trying to force my fingers into any specific position other than for the c shape. When I turn my hand over and look at my thumb it is at a 45 degree angle to my other fingers. I am not able to keep my thumb straight with the c grip unless I really force it and that is very hard to do. I can force my thumb to be straight with the gripper but it is very uncomfortable and I can not do it without the gripper.

So when I grip the dice my thumb is at a 45 degree angle. I am gripping the dice with the side of my thumb rather than the flat portion of my thumb. I just make sure that I have equal skin on both die with the side of my thumb.

I do not know if you have a similar situation or not but try making the c grip with your hand without the dice. See what is a natural position for your fingers when you make the c grip. Turn your hand over and look at the position of your fingers and more importantly your thumb. If this is the natural position for you to make a c grip, try using that position when you grip the dice. Be sure your fingers are straight across with the middle finger and thumb having equal skin/pressure on both die. The outside fingers should be barely touching the dice.

Let me know if this helps or not.

I agree Skinny

I have to consciously check and usually roll my thumb a fraction to achieve equal contact, if I don’t it’s almost an automatic double pitch

What skinny said!!! 😆

That is what I was trying to say in my prior post but Skinny’s explanation was sooo much better than my try. That is why he is an instructor and I am just a lowly disciple of GTC!!

I like Skinny’s description.
Use the grip that is natural and comfortable for you.
What he calls ‘oval’ using the finger pads I would call ‘U’.
So there is the ‘U" grip with pads and parallel straight thumb,
and there is the ‘C’ grip with slanted thumb.
Way to go Skinny!
Thanks so much for your contributions on this board.

Stealth – Hang in there. It will feel more natural – just do what Skinny said.

Remember in class, Dom told me to log at least 1,000 throws before going back to the casino. That was the first trip to Vegas in 15 years that I didn’t buy into a craps game. Since then I’ve logged more than 5,500 tosses at home and all the changes we made to grip (and in my case swing) are effortless now.
The results are predictable when they leave my fingers. SmartCraps is bearing this out; the advantage is real and much more significant than before the bad habits developed.

It’s almost time to go back into the casino – almost. The last item to fine tune is the betting strategy based on the numbers that are consistently appearing. SmartCraps is suggesting a strategy based on the results so far, but I want to get a few thousand more tosses logged in to confirm; before the real money hits the table.

You’re almost there, just be persistent.

"Skinny" wrote:
I do not know if you have a similar situation or not but try making the c grip with your hand without the dice. See what is a natural position for your fingers when you make the c grip. Turn your hand over and look at the position of your fingers and more importantly your thumb. If this is the natural position for you to make a c grip, try using that position when you grip the dice. Be sure your fingers are straight across with the middle finger and thumb having equal skin/pressure on both die. The outside fingers should be barely touching the dice.

Let me know if this helps or not.

My thumb has always been some angle to the dice, gripping with the side of the thumb, not the front pad. I am seeing that when the hand is in the c grip, the three fingers are twisted to the side in respect to each other.

Now with this grip my thumb is grabbing the dice almost with its side. In fact most of the time my thumb nail hits the dice, which I don’t think is right.

Yet with all this, I will throw 6 times with all primary numbers, then the next six will all have a 6 or 1 in the pair showing up. Frustrating.

At least as it was before class at least 80% or more of my shots are staying in the center after landing.

This week will be hard on the hands, decaulking, recaulking trim work, and repairing some drywall. All hand and finger work.

To get and keep my hand in that position is hard and after not that many throws the hand starts to cramp, even with relaxing measures between throws.

Continuing saga.

Sorry Dom, but I have to relax the tight C grip to a bit less. My hand could not repeat that over and over again.

So, with that said, the following has been happening, and I need some guidance.

My throw has settled down some, but the results have been erratic. So I finally set up my high speed camera and a bunch of lights. It is now rather bright where I throw/practice.

With the camera the first thing I found that while throwing my head would rise up a bit towards the release. Relative easy fix. Done.

BUT what I am finding is that my inner die is coming out of my grip level, but the outer die is coming out tilted. This is happening over and over again. The two are level with each other (side by side) but the outer die right out of my grip is at angle to the inner die and to the table.

Thoughts please.

Thanks

Stealthman,

Check your grip (where have you heard that before?). Some possible problems.
1) You are either not centered on the dice with your three fingers and totally straight across so your three fingers form a cylinder for the dice to roll off.
2) Your thumb is not centered and/or you are pushing with it a little bit as you release the dice.
3) You are moving (opening the grip) with your right (ring) finger as you release.

Check those three things and see if any of them are happening.

Jerry

Hi

Thank you finisher that was helpful

I thought that there may be some older posts that you may be interested in . It helps to get this info before class . You will have a great time in class there will be a lot to learn tho .
Hope you have some great rolls .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

I was having a big problem with the dice separating in my grip.Watched video and really tried to barely have any pressure on outside fingers and holding very lightly with my thumb and middle finger. This seemed to help keep the dice together and seemed rolling less sevens. Will start keeping track of rolls after the class.

Do you have a gripper to practice with ? That may help you also have you glued 2 dice together to see wobble that your throw has ? This is a Journey .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Just ordered the gripper. Please explain the idea of glueing the dice together. Definitely will try it this week. I guess I am looking for how the dice rotate?

Bman gave me this idea to glue 2 of your old dice together to see how your throw looks in the air before they hit the wall . If you do not want to use one of your dice some casinos sell old dice . Were I play they are 1.00 which is about the best price I can think of . 😀 😀
They are in an old cig. machine .
Good Rolling. 😀 🙂

Finisher,

I recall you showed me that machine with the dice in it ! That is so funny. If I recall you can get used cards also. Thank you for bringing some of these older posts forward it really helps us newer members. Like our instructor’s tell us "you have 100% control while the dice are in your hand" make it count with a good grip !

JackD.

Well said Finisher, Your comment about "the only time you have 100% control over the dice is when you have them in your hand." Brings back so many fond memories as my memory first heard from the great Mr. Finesse. He was one of the founders of GTC and a great friend to many of us.

Rose and Doc

I think that is who I heard it from too. It is like life we have but little influence on most things in life but think other wise some times . 😀
Good Rolling.