Rose and Doc have made some changes from time. Like you it may look good for a short time but we always come back to the basics we teach in the Primer and Refresher classes. For example, have tried not making the dice level with the bottom and all sides of the table just before you start your back swing. Here we put the dice "on angle" but for us it did not work like we wanted after a while. Switched back to keeping them level.

Have tried other sets than the hard way–3 V or 2V–but for us we always come back to the hard way. It works for us.

To quote that great philosopher, Dominator, why change something that works. One of the greatest baseball players, Ted Williams, never changed his swing or approach to hitting the ball and he was the last player to hit .400 for the year. Not one player has come close over these many years. There is a message here.

Now for Doc’s philosophy, think of the players on the PGA Golf Tour. All of them have instructors for driving, short game, putting, etc. And they work with these coaches almost every week. We are no different but we can’t offer weekly critique. However we do offer refresher classes, tune ups, and elite video. Take advantage of these opportunities as often as possible. Remember the cost of this instruction is not an expense but an investment in your craps throwing future. I know it has made a world of difference to us over the years.

Rose and Doc hope to see you in the casino soon.

Rose and Doc

:))) I was never called a philosopher before, but I like it Doc!

I have never changed my pick up or grip from what we show all primers except for one thing VERY early in my practice. Instead of curling my wrist and putting the dice under my nose, from SL I pick the dice straight up, square with the table and all sides. So it has been about 18 years since I made that change and have never changed again.

I read somewhere that Don Mattingly would get up in the middle of the night and work on his stance and changes to it. Now Donny baseball was a great ball player, but did all these changes affect his back problems which shorten his career and probably will not let him make the Hall of Fame? Who knows, but I feel that changes like those that you are talking about and then practicing those changes just will screw up your muscle memory.

Changing sets is never the thing to do ….. all problems are always in the grip. So if you are changing the grip and pick up every now and then IMO you are just hurting yourself from reaching your potential.

If things are just not going my way at the tables, I just leave

Dominator

Living in the Baltimore area, I sometimes can relate to Cal Ripken — he was known for changing his stance routinely throughout his career (even within the same season), and amazingly he’s one of the greatest players of all time. From my recollection, his batting average in one season has been as low as .250 and as high as .325 (just going from my memory, so I may be off slightly). But, he’s a true HOF-er and has done so much for the B-More area.

I tend to change my stance, grip, throw (backswing, etc.) frequently — I try to find what’s working on that particular day — especially if I’m on a table that’s not in AC or LV.

I go back to "basics" quite a bit — I try to remember the stance, grip, and throw that generated my 75-roll, and the two 60+ rolls I’ve had.

I think of the instructors’ doing the demonstration throws at class– DOC, NFF, Dom, and Rand-man come to mind.

I try different things because the tables near me are just not the best to play on. It becomes a major struggle to win — that’s why experiment and try different things to beat them (kind of like Cal Ripken).

This topic is another great question by the Professor. I was going to make a long and detailed answer yesterday but I did not have time and thinking about this topic over night I decided what to say.

I think most students try to make to many changes to the basics we teach in both the Primer and refresher classes. We must remember KISS, Keep it Simple Stupid. (Not implying anyone here is stupid because no one is.) I just think we look for a simple answer instead of perfecting the basic toss we teach in class.

The changes we have made in GTC in the last 2 years have even simplified it more than it was 10 or 5 years ago. The refresher class begins with a review of the basic set up, stance and GRIP. I bet 50 % of the refreshers need their grip fixed before they even have their toss looked at. Refreshers, Tune-ups and elite Video are vital to improving your toss.

Like Doc said pro golfers work with their personal coaches every week, for the life of me I can’t understand why so many of our Primer students do not return for additional class and fixing of their swing(toss), I guess they just like to struggle.

I had a problem with my toss this winter and I could not see what it was. I asked NFF and BTK to look at my toss and we figured it out in 5 minutes. A quick adjustment to my pickup and release and I am off to the races.

I hope this helps everyone and please drop me a note if it doesn’t, would like to help you.

Remember KISS and GRIP!!!!!!

Wow thanks guys almost all of you said just what I needed to hear. Keeping it simple as Mr. Finesse says and Dom’s comment about sdrewing up muscle memory with lots of changes. And Doc did some of the same things I did and still went back to basics tells me that I should stop screwing around with grip and stay the course as Dom did as he kept everythig the same for so many years . Can not dispute the success he and Finesse and Doc have had. So who am I to go against such good advice. Keep it simple and stay the course, and practice, practice, practice.
I will honestly try to take a refresher however my retirement pension is not great. But thank you all for your comments. Professor

I do not try to change any aspect of my toss other than to adjust for table conditions. I agree it all starts with the grip. Most problems that occur are due to something being off in the grip. Since I know what to look for I can usually discover my problem at the table and correct it. I attribute that to the fact that I do not attempt to make changes to my toss. There is only one way I want to throw the dice and if I am not doing it properly it is easier for me to go back to what I am attempting to do because it is only one way.

One can normally tell what is wrong in the grip or throw based on the reaction of the dice. When I teach refreshers I tell them what to look for in the way the dice react to determine if they are doing something wrong. I want to make students self sufficient so they can do self analysis in order to fix a simple problem. Primers have enough trouble learning the basics and mechanics of the grip and toss. It takes time for them to develop a consistent grip and toss using the basic GTC method before they are ready for any type of analysis. They also need several months of practice on average before they are ready to advance to the next step.

In trying to adjust to the table conditions I work backwards from the result I am getting. I know where I want the dice to land and how I want them to react after they have landed. If they are not doing what I want I may decide I need more or less height, more or less energy and finally, I may move my landing area closer or further from the back wall. But that is about it.

I’m glad I checked the board because I can definitely answer this question from my personal experience which will be related directly to the Professor.

I know the professor and we haven’t chatted in a while but it’s some advice I pass along to individuals that have taken the primer but not the refresher.

Again, this is from my personal experience and whether we want to admit it, I believe a lot of people do it and end up in one of two spots which I’ll explain at the end.

After I took my first primer class, it was a year before I took the refresher class. During that first year for a number of people, you’ll practice, practice, practice, and over time, you’ll start looking for results. When things don’t work, we tweak, a little of this, a little of that, let me try this and let me try that. You go to the casino, it works. Great, I think I fixed what was wrong and sure enough over time, you’re back to where you started because things aren’t working again. So let me try something else, a little here, a little there and same results and SAME CYCLE of events.

What do you do? You call one of your GTC friends who might have taken a primer class as well. You talk it over, talk it over some more, try what they’re trying, it works, bingo, you solved it and before you know, it’s the SAME CYCLE of events.

Looking back, I was lost and I didn’t really know what to fix, better yet, HOW to fix it. I THOUGHT I DID – I’m smart, I catch on fast but the reality is SO MUCH information is transferred in the primer class, that it is impossible to remember everything. I had my notes but I had developed problems that were new and needed another set of eyes.

I’ve said this for years. The difference for me was taking the refresher class. Dom made one friggin change with my thumb and I’m like huh. The first class gave me the skills to learn the toss. The refresher gave me the tools to understand my toss.

So professor, you’re in the same boat as I was when I started. You’re lost and what I learned is that no matter what I tried, I ALWAYS RETURNED TO THE BASICS. And those basics were the GTC way. It’s human nature to try things but as I said above, you’ll do one of two things, either 1) you’ll continue to stay lost and never find your way home or 2) you’ll end up back at square 1, at the basics.

When I have primer students I tell them this at the end of the class. You’re going to go home and practice like crazy. A few months may go by and you may be stuck or something’s not working. You may start to try a few things differently because you saw someone else do it but I can tell you from experience it won’t work. It may work initially, but in time it won’t work either. Save yourself the time. Go back to the basics, do a post about the problem you’re having, email me but remember these basics

and remember how to check each step.

Professor – you came in second in the no-sevens contest. You have a great shot. It’s time to come home… Let the refresher be the class that gets you over the hump as it did for me.

Matt

What a great thread.

Matt we can only say one thing–AMEN!!!

Rose and Doc

Time for me to jump in: I play with the Professor and another very accomplished GTC graduate on a regular basis.

The reason for the Professor’s post is an atempt refine our ability to adapt to the tables here in CT. The results that are achieved on our practice tables do not necessary translate to the same results (consistency) at the tables in the casinos. The combination of the microfiber / dice / table changes are why we slightly change the shot in attempt to adapt. The advanced course supplies the tools to make shot changes but we are finding there are tables that are unplayable. Maybe a course in evaluating tables would help.

Now that I have reached a skill level high even to have good rolls, it has become a mental game. I just came back from playing in the Sun. I focused on breathing and a mindless state tossing the dice… (same state when I competed in archery tournaments). Three long rolls back to back right from the start. I was in the loop of changing my shot when the real answer was between my ears. I was afraid to toss a seven so my conscious mind cluttered the unconscious mind (muscle memory) causing hesitation with the shot, resulting in poor results.
Finesse would tell me " let it fly" until I made the connection recently, I was missing his point. Thank you Bob!

I never change the basics or the hardway set. It has all worked for me for 12 years. If I am having trouble at the tables, I usually can analyze what is wrong, and try to fix it. That doesn’t mean I change my grip or anything else. It might mean that a finger has slipped out of place, or my tempo has sped up, etc. Recently in AC, I had Daryl and BTK look at my toss, and they picked up on something I shouldn’t have been doing. Also, after 7 months of chemo, I found the dice were slipping out of my fingers. I couldn’t hold onto them. Mr. Finesse helped me with that problem.

When I am practicing, I practice one component at a time, until I am satisfied with it. I have a full length mirror at the end of the receiving table to look at my release, which was a huge problem for awhile. I have a table mirror to check my grip. Only when each component looks and feels correct, do I then put it all together.

After my primer class, I practiced every day for 6 months before I went to a casino. I then took two refresher classes as well as an advance class, a tune up, and a video before I became an instructor. For the primers, I would say a refresher class is vital to succeed. The primer taught the basics, but how do you know what you are doing is correct unless an instructor looks at your grip and toss? All the instructors have had problems periodically, and we ask each other to critique us, just as Mr. Finesse said. Without follow up, I don’t see how any primer will be successful in the long term. A primer doesn’t yet know how to analyze what they are doing or to analyze the results of the landing of the dice. Primers certainly don’t know how to adjust for different conditions. The advance class will help you there, after two refresher classes have gotten you to where you should be.

I am still not back where I was before the leukemia chemo treatments, but I have gone back to my basic practice techniques. Remember, this is a journey, and my journey is continuing.

Goddess

From The Lion:
I go back to "basics" quite a bit — I try to remember the stance, grip, and throw that generated my 75-roll, and the two 60+ rolls I’ve had.

From John C1:
Now that I have reached a skill level high even to have good rolls, it has become a mental game. I just came back from playing in the Sun. I focused on breathing and a mindless state tossing the dice… (same state when I competed in archery tournaments). Three long rolls back to back right from the start. I was in the loop of changing my shot when the real answer was between my ears. I was afraid to toss a seven so my conscious mind cluttered the unconscious mind (muscle memory) causing hesitation with the shot, resulting in poor results.

These two comments from The Lion and JohnC1 reminded me of my early days.

We tend to forget that this thing we try to do with the dice is 20% physical and 80% mental. These percentages lend themselves to most athletic endeavors. Some say that Tiger Woods’ fall from greatness started with his and his want to be excepted again by his peers and the fans, not his golfing. Re-watch the movies "Bagger Vance" and "The last Samurai". All having to do with what is between our ears.

Now my blast from the past …. I would play with one of our instructors every other day in the city I lived in. After our sessions and waiting for our car from valet I would say to him, "something was wrong today, we didn’t shoot well. What was different?" The answer was always the same …. we weren’t zoned in. I asked him and myself, what were we thinking about when we had our last 50 hand roll?

You see I never thought about if my grip, stance, swing was off because I practiced that over and over again. I knew that those things were right on. What was different was my thoughts during the throw. So I thought, well that 50 hand roll I was singing a Frank Sinatra song to myself that was being played in the casino …. that 60 hand roll I was visualizing that fish I caught …. That 40 hand roll I visualizing the exact numbers and I wanted to throw. In other words I was emptying my mind of all thoughts except for one. I played "mindlessly" I threw with no thoughts except the song, the fish, the number.

Lets never forget how much our thoughts and playing with an empty mind plays with our throw

Dominator

Dom — you’re so right

When I played baseball and I was in the batter’s box, my entire focus was picking up the ball from the pitcher’s hand – I practiced so much in the batting cages and in live batting practice that my stance, swing, hitting approach was second nature — I did not care what type of wind-up the pitcher had — just pick up the ball, quickly determine if it’s in my hitting "zone" and throw my hands through the hitting zone and hit the ball.

As I got older and moved into a real man’s game (i.e. slo-pitch softball), I’d employ the same approach. I used to pitch softball for 10 years, almost 8 games a week, and the focus required to ensure that you throw strikes is comparable to what we try to do on the craps table. It’s amazing how similar baseball and softball are to shooting craps — the hand/eye coordination, mental concentration, muscle memory, and handling pressure when things are stressful

I’ve noticed that my thinking on the tables happen when we’re on "challenging" tables like the ones close to us in MD — I don’t have the thinking problems in AC or LV

But, I truly believe you have to clear your head of all thoughts to be successful

How Does the proffessor do it? He comes up with the most thought out questions that brings forth the best results in the answers from our fellow GTC’ers.

I learned so much just from reading the posts. Thanks for the great question and the super great answers.
Now to the practice table so that the Casino results on my toss makes the 401G grow a bit.

I can not thank everyone enough. I think what I have gleaned from all of the posts is stay with the basic teaching of GTC and get myself into a zone or meditative state as quickly as i can. I have now been practicing this method for 6 years. I know I need a refresher, however I will have to sell my body to get the money to do so even with the discounts I have seen. Until then I have to trust that my shot is decent enough and what I need to focus on is the mental aspect. JohnC1 knows my shot and I trust when he says it looks good. He lets me know when I am throwing to hard or too this or too that. We have just been talking about the mental part. As a matter of fact I went today to the casino,and thinking back to what Dom said "what was I thinking" when a shot a 4 fire making 9 numbers I have to say I can not remember anything and maybe that is the answer don’t think about a thing other than the shot "as it is happening." Thanks again everyone. Professor

"professor" wrote: I can not thank everyone enough. I think what I have gleaned from all of the posts is stay with the basic teaching of GTC and get myself into a zone or meditative state as quickly as i can. I have now been practicing this method for 6 years. I know I need a refresher, however I will have to sell my body to get the money to do so even with the discounts I have seen. Until then I have to trust that my shot is decent enough and what I need to focus on is the mental aspect. JohnC1 knows my shot and I trust when he says it looks good. He lets me know when I am throwing to hard or too this or too that. We have just been talking about the mental part. As a matter of fact I went today to the casino,and thinking back to what Dom said "what was I thinking" when a shot a 4 fire making 9 numbers I have to say I can not remember anything and maybe that is the answer don’t think about a thing other than the shot "as it is happening." Thanks again everyone. Professor

That is the answer ….. no thinking just throw like in practice!

Dominator

The more I think the more the 3/4 and 2/5 comes up .
So I try to think about keeping the dice together lately .
It seems to me that all the instructors do not shoot the same they all have a little different way . But you can tell that they learned the same way .I wish that I was a little taller . So if you are short your shoot will look different then some one that is tall but still be the same .
Just my .01 worth .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Being short is probably the most demanding problem to overcome. I always said if I was 6 ft. tall I would have been a better shooter, but is that true?

I also could have been a basketball player, a baseball player or if I was 5’9" tall I could have qualified for Major League Umpire school.

But I am what I am, 5’4" and shrinking as I get older who stands on a Lap Top case to get over the craps table rail who practices his grip more than anything else. 😀

I am catching up to you .Started 5ft.6 now 5ft 5. It is a different world when you are up there at 6ft and above . I remember one time I dated a girl that I stood on the first step to kiss her good night . 🙂 🙂 Boy was that a long time ago .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

All this talk about the mental game reminds me of what a friend told me early on with my golf game.

Golf is a thinking man’s game. If you think too much, you’re f*cked.

Some of my best round of golf or sessions at the table are when I focus on something else beside the mechanics of the swing.

Mr Finesse said….."Being short is probably the most demanding problem to overcome"

Shortness is correctable (with some additions, of course) — we use a dense, thick, styrofoam box to help us when we shoot.

What’s not correctable is having thumbs that are not "normal" like others and that’s what I deal with every craps shot. My right thumb is so "unique" that it’s almost impossible to do the GTC shot. I’ve abandoned my right hand shot a while ago and now just stick with the left hand shot.

However, it’s a bit of a struggle too. My left thumb just does not bend like a normal thumb and there’s no way I can grip the dice like most of my GTC friends/players. My left thumb is straight (no bend at the first joint ) when I hold the dice, but I am able to get just "enough" of my thumb pad surface on the dice to hold it. And, I deal with slight splitting at the bottom of the dice set (right before backswing) and the lack of dexterity of my other fingers cannot help to get the dice back together. It’s really challenging for me — it’s difficult.

Then add in the years of baseball playing and the related muscle memory (plus, very strong triceps/shoulders kick in) from many years of swinging a bat causes me to banana the throw at times. I really have to focus on my arm being straight down like a golf club and come thru slowly with the swing and make sure it’s straight.

Lots of work and practice —- but, the grip is so challenging to get it as "correct" as I possibly can

If you get to vegas I will teach you all I no about tables.

Bman – are you talking about craps tables or restaurant tables? 😀

restaurant tables, the new steak house in ballys is great.

Becoming fatter has definitely made the shot different, I am 30 pounds bigger than when I started and about 4 inches around the middle.

By the way 90% of the time I now leave the shoes home anonymity and peace is mo better.