Sounds good Ron. Glad it is working out for you.

BTW, after 8 hits I generally put all the chips I am using as counters back in my top rack and start counting all over again. At that point I know which numbers are hot for me and I want to be able to keep track of the double hits so that I know when I have 4 double hits. After 4 double hits I start pressing up my place bets to get more money on the table. I take all the money from the double hit (come and place) and put it on the number I have been hitting the most or just putting it on the number that I just hit. Once again I clear out the counting chips so that I have a clear rack to keep track of the quadruple hits, ie. numbers with a come bet and 3 times the come bet as a place bet.

My goal is to have enough on the numbers so that I can change my line bets to 10 times what they are originally and use the money from the hit to fund the odds on the number and the next come bet.

For example, if you have a 30 base bet with 150/200/250 in odds I want to have enough on the numbers so that my next move is to go to a 300 base bet with 1500/2000/2500 in odds. That would mean I would need 500/750/1200 on the numbers. The 4/10 would pay in total 510/1500 for the come/buy bets with 1500 in odds and 300 for the come going on the table, putting 210 in the rails. The 5/9 would pay 560/1800 for the come/place bets with 2000 in odds and 300 for the come going on the table putting 60 in the rails. The 6/8 would pay 610/2600 for the come/place bets with 2500 in odds and 300 for the come going on the table putting 410 in the rails.

I put the chips back after 8 hits. I started using chips to keep track of the double hits. I was guessing after 4 double hits put the chips back and start counting triple hits. U totally lost me after that. I need some sleep so I’ll read it a few more times tomorrow with fresh eyes.

You have the idea. Now let me give you some more theory so that you get the idea of how I devised this to thoroughly confuse you. Actually if you understand the concepts you can then modify it to fit what you want to do with it.

The basic idea is you want to cover the money you have on the table, then start making a profit that is at least equal to what you have on the table. After that you put up more money from your future winnings. You never take money from the rails to put on the table because you don’t want to walk away with less of a profit than what is on the table.

So let us say we are working with 30 on the pass/come at 5X odds. We can push the house to 150/200/250 in odds so that each hit pays 330. If we start with a pass and 2 come bets we have approx 690 as our initial outlay. 4 hits gives us 1320 which is approximately double our initial outlay. We now add another come bet and keep doing so for every hit we have in the future until we have the board covered. At this point we have 1380 on the table. 8 hits gives us 2640 or approximately double our investment on the table. That is why after 8 hits we start to add place bets. At that point I put the next hit on the table as a place for 300 and put the 30 in the rails. Put double hit winnings in the rails and single hits go up with a place bet until we have all the numbers double parked. Double hits pay 930/750/680 for the 4/5/6 respectively and the same for the sister numbers. So 4 double hits pays you a little over 3,000 and you put 1800 additional on the table when you covered all the numbers with 300 place/buy bets. So you have made a profit of approximately what you put on the table after 4 double hits thus it is time to put more money on the table.

I want to get to 500/750/1200 as buy/place bets on the 4/5/6 respectively and the same for the sister numbers. So on my next double hit I put most of the winnings back up on the table. If I collect 930 on a 4 or 10, I will add 200 to the 4 bringing it to 500, 200 to the 10 bringing it to 500 and maybe 450 to a 5 or 9 bringing it to 750 while putting 80 in the rails. If instead I collect 750 on a 5 or 9, I will probably add 450 on the one that hit bringing it to 750 and the remaining 300 on a 6 or 8 bringing it to 600. If I collect 680 on a 6 or 8, I will add 600 to the one I hit bringing it to 900 and put the remaining 80 in the rails.

If I hit one of the newly pressed numbers, I will put it all in the rails and count that as 1 hit. I will use double hit winnings to press up the other numbers to where I want to get them.

After 4 hits on the newly pressed numbers, I change my come bet to 300. I then use the money coming down, the place bet and the winnings from the place bet for odds on the 300 come bet and to put up a new 300 come bet. In my post above, I showed how the buy/place bets at 500/750/1200 are sufficient to cover the odds on a 300 come bet and 300 for the next come bet. At this point each future come bet win will pay 3300.

After 4 hits at 3300, I start placing all the numbers again, this time for 3000 each and treating them as the new double parked number. Start counting double hits all over again and hope to get 4 double hits so that I can get to table max in place bets and switch my come bet to table max as well. At that point pass and come go to 2500 with max 12500 odds on each number. Once again I take the come bet coming down, the place bet and winnings from the place bet to cover the new odds of 12500 and the next come bet of 2500. 4 hits at that level and I start placing all the numbers again, this time at table max.

Of course if I find I am hitting a specific number or two pretty regularly on any given roll, I may adjust the plan to go up on those numbers early and press them before spreading out to new numbers. I still try to keep track of my hits so I know where I am in relation to my profit and money on the table. In other words if I place a number early before getting to 8 hits, I would count a hit on that number as 2 single hits even though it is really 1 double hit. That is because I am not at the double hit stage yet and I want to know when I have gotten the money equivalent of 8 single hits. Similarly if I pressed a double hit early to make it a quadruple win, I would count that as 2 double hits because I am counting double hits at this time. I find doing it that way just helps me keep my accounting straight without having to think about it. I hope that makes sense to you.

Everybody has to have a dream so you might as well dream big. Something like this is possible if you get a roll of around 100 or so. But you can get pretty far into this progression with a 50 – 70 roll. So you need to be prepared for it should it happen.

Jumbo and Skinny, this post is absolutely amazing in that you really outlay a ton of valuable information…as a fledgling user of TBS, the theory behind it all is a revelation….Thank you for posts like these that help us all!

~Bigdaddy Revs

Skinny; Thanks for your time and teachings. I look forward to the day all the hard practice pays off and I use The Big Skinny during a great roll. It has been a great tool for many of us. Doughboy

Definately gotta Dream Big. Why not us?

Lets go over this. Let’s say I start at with 10/ 50 odds. After 8 hits I start double parking numbers until they are all double but at the same time counting my double parked hits. After 4 double parked hits I start full pressing the place bets on the double parked hits. In your original post I thought U said to keep the come money when pressing the double parked hits but on your last comment I read it like U press the whole thing. If U could clarify that it would be great.

Now after 4 quadruple hits start making $100 come bets with max odds financed off the come and place money coming down. Is this correct? After 4 hits of new 10x my original come bets start double parking wins on top of the come bets. Now being that I’m starting with $10 and when it gets this far I will be at $100 come bets at no time am I taking advantage of pushing the house. I’m thinking about ways I can go up where I can make $15 to $150 come bets so I can push the house on the odds. Also I recall U saying a while back that in AC that will not allow U to push the house on $60 come bets….is that correct?

After 4 hits on the new double parked hits on top of the new 10x original line bet I’ve already forgot what to do so let me review your comment and I’ll get back if I have any more questions….which I’m sure I will.

It makes a lot more sense after a good night sleep. Thanks for the help.

From that point on 4 hits and press until I get to max place and come bets but still remain flexible with your press money if your pounding out certain numbers. Also remain mindful of the ratio of how much profit you have in the rails and how much money you have at risk on the table. Off the top of my I’m going to say that ratio is about 2 to 1 profit/money at risk. The fact that I do not know for sure tells me that I still have some work to do so I really know it. When anybody ask about my style of play I give them a serious face n say, "The guy that invented this is from Jersey, n he’s a bad mf. Trust me….nerves of Steel. He’ll get U to table max quick….up up and away!!! Nobody really ever ask but when they do I have a quick speel. I tell it like a Ghost story at a camp fire but instead where at a craps table by the Atlantic Ocean. My way of paying homage for U giving us knowledge to make more Green…thanks again buddy from all of us.

So I’m working some of my numbers out. A double parked 8 would look like 10/50 odds and say 90 on the 8. I take $175 then the quadruple looks like 10/with 50 with $240 on top depending whether you press the come win or not. After 4 quadruple hits I believe your saying switch to come bets 10x your original bet. Hit and get back all the money to finance it. So it pays $350 on your win and you get back $300 from your bets. $100 goes up $500 odds and $100 in the come box. Now that press is almost totally financed minus $50 bucks. Is that right?

Yeah, I think you have the idea. Two things. On a $60 line bet at a 5X odds table they will let you put $500 in odds on the 6/8 but only $300 on the 4/5/9/10. You can push the house a little but not as much as on a 3 unit bet such as $15, 30, 75, 150, 300, 750 or 1500.

If you start with 10/50 odds, I think you want to get to 15/push the house as soon as the roll develops strong. So let’s see how this works best using my basic principles. I will work it out with you here so you can see how I think about it and figure it out.

With 10/50 you have 180 as your initial amount at risk on three numbers. Pay offs are 110/80/70. So with 4 hits you make about 340 or so. That gives you a profit of around 160. So if you want to be aggressive you can go up on the last three numbers to cover the board and you won’t be risking more than your initial amount at risk which was your profit. You will only be playing with money you have already won. You put another 180 on the table putting you around minus 20 from the 340 your took in from the first 4 hits. When you get 4 more hits you will take in around another 340 giving you about 320 as profit in your rails.

Now it is time to double park the numbers. But instead of doing it with only the place bet, lets switch to 15 come bets as well. Changing to 15 come bets means putting another 5 out from the rails so we now have a profit of 315.

You hit the 4, collect 110 plus come down with 60. Put 75 in odds, 15 for next come and buy the 4 for 75 paying a $2 vig. That leaves $3 going in the rails for a profit of 318.

You hit the 5, collect 80 plus come down with 60. Put 100 in odds, 15 for the next come and place the 5 for 25.

You hit the 6, collect 70 plus come down with 60. Put 125 in odds, 15 for the next come taking 10 out of the rails leaving profit of 308.

Same with the sister numbers and you will have a profit of 301 with 950 on the table.

For the next 4 hits, let’s say you hit the 4,5,6 and 8. You collect 313, 200, 165 and 165 for a total of 843 to add to the 301 bringing the profit to 1144 with 950 on the table.

You have more in profit than on the table so it is time to increase the buy/place bets up to 250/375/600.

If you hit a 4 or 10, you collect 315. Add 175 to each number bringing them both to 250 each and pay the 25 vig taking 60 out of the rails leaving the profit at 1084.

If you hit a 5 or 9, you collect 200. Add 100 to each number bringing them both to 125 each.

If you hit a 6 or 8, you collect 165. Place each number for 90 apiece taking 15 out of the rails leaving a profit of 1069.

After that if you hit a max parked 4 or 10 put it in the rails and count it as a hit.

If you hit a 5 or 9 you collect 340. Bring both numbers to 250 each adding 125 more on each number and put 90 in the rails giving you a profit of 1159.

A future hit on the 5 or 9 goes in the rails and counts as a hit.

If you hit a 6 or 8 you collect 270. Make each number look like 240, taking 30 out of the rails leaving your profit at 1129.

You now have the outside numbers 4/5/9/10 max parked and need to add more to the 6/8. If you hit an outside number, put it in the rails for profit. Only add to the 6/8 to get to max if you hit them at 240. But if you get 4 hits on the outside numbers before getting the 6/8 to max you should use future hits on the outside to bring the 6/8 to 1200 each.

Then at that point you will have 4 hits at max double parked and can switch to 150 come bets. The money on the table will fund the new come bets and odds as follows:

Hits on the 4 or 10 pay 165 and 90 comes down, plus 500 and take down 250 buy bet totaling 1005. You need 750 in odds and 150 for the next come giving you an excess of 105 to add to the rails.

Hits on the 5 or 9 pay 165 and 115 comes down, plus 525 and take down 375 place bet totaling 1180. You need 1000 in odds and 150 for the next come giving an excess of 30 to add to the rails.

Hits on the 6 or 8 pay 165 and 140 comes down, plus 700 and take down 600 place bet totaling 1605. You need 1250 in odds and 150 for the next come giving an excess of 205 to add to the rails.

At this point you have the bases covered with 150/max odds come bets and each one pays 1650.

I hope this gives you the general idea of how I would play it given you are starting with 10/50. I want to get to 15/75/100/125 after 8 hits. After 4 hits I have enough to cover the board at 10/50. I am willing to risk going to 6 numbers because even if I seven out without another hit I will not lose any money. Once I get the bases covered and have 8 hits I have a profit of what I have on the table and will use future hits to switch to 15/max come bets and buy/place bets to increase my come bet and double park some numbers. After 4 hits at this level I use future hits to increase my buy/place bets to 250/375/600. Once at those numbers I take future hits as profits. I don’t use future hits at double parked max to fund numbers that are not at max unless I have collected 4 times on the max double parked numbers. That way I am collecting on numbers that I am hitting and not putting money on numbers that I am not hitting too early. But once I have a sufficient profit of 4 hits I am willing to fund the numbers that need the money so that I can switch over to 150 come bets and max odds without having to take money out of the rails.

I just figured this out here since I never thought about how to handle 10/50 come bets. I think this is a good way to do it but I may be missing something since I have not tried this out before. It should work pretty well on a 40 – 70 roll and make you close to a max profit without taking unreasonable risk. I think you will need that size of a roll if you are going to get to the 150 come bet level. At that point each win is paying 1650 and you are making some serious change.

Remember this is a basic outline of how to play the hand. It is based on the roll progressing in an average way without any real signature numbers during the roll. Remain flexible in case you see you are killing one or two numbers during a given roll. If that becomes the case, put the money on those numbers early and press them early. But be sure to take profit as you are going along. If you have more money on a number or two, count the hits as double, triple, quadruple or whatever they are to approximate where you would be at with a normal roll. That way you can still use the basic numbers of 8 hits followed by 4 hits each time thereafter to progress to the next level.

Hope this helps. Let me know what you think.

Here is one more thing I can tell you as I am now thinking about this.

When I first started looking for a way of betting that contained my risk but let me get aggressive I tried using only come bets. I would start at 15 and after 8 hits switch to 30, after 4 hits switch to 75, after 4 hits switch to 150, etc.

That was my first thought because it got me to progress my bets once I had a profit using only come bets and I was only giving the house a 0.25% HA. The problem was the numbers would get all out of whack. I would be all over the place with my come bets. I would have numbers at 15, 30 and 75. I would not be making enough to fund some of the future come bets when a 15 come came down.

That is when I got the idea to use place bets. At first I just used one place bet and tried to jump a level, ie. from 15 to 75. That also did not work out too well. Finally I came up with the idea of putting enough on the table as a buy/place bet so that I could go to a 10X come bet when it was time to go to the next level.

This method allowed me to press up numbers that I was hitting so that I made a nice profit from those numbers as I was waiting to get to the next level. It also gave me enough when I was ready to fund those numbers I was not hitting without having to take money out of my rails.

If the roll ended before getting to a new level but I had pressed up a signature number and hit it a few times, I had a nice profit to show for it. It gave me the ability to be flexible on a roll where I was consistently hitting only a few numbers. I remember one roll where I only was hitting 3 numbers. I did not have any come bets on the other 3 numbers because I never threw them. So I just added place bets to the numbers I was hitting. I had a come bet sitting out there and kept getting off and on with those 3 numbers along with the pressed up place bets. I did not have any money on the other 3 numbers that I was not hitting at all. Eventually I got to the 10X level. There was no money on the numbers I did not hit to fund the odds. So when I finally hit one of those numbers I left it without odds. There was no sense in taking money out of the rails to fund numbers I was not hitting. My plan was that if I did hit those numbers I would just put the winnings from the naked come bet as odds.

Anyhow, that is how I got to develop TBS as I play it now. It works for me. Hope it works for others as well.

I like it!! No point in having the knowledge of pushing the house and never actually pushing it. Like anything new U start I’m sure it will become automatic the more I use it over time. I’ll be reading a few of your comments and post about TBS many more times as a reference guide. Thanks for laying out the theory behind it, I love that kind of stuff. I still Love talking about the game. TBS is very controlled and calculated based on profit. Counting the hits with the chip spots really lets me know exactly what’s going on and I love that!

I’m in a hotel on the boardwalk right now. They are having that free throw contest tomorrow morning at 10 am. In my Prime I was 90% from the line…lol. U get 15 balls, 2 are money balls that U can use at any time and 60 seconds. $20 buy in, 1 re-buy in the 1st round only. I had ringer with a great jumper who we were going to split any wins (my idea) but he had to work. I’m hoping nobody comes because of the snow…lol From Seaside on the roads were great. Looked like nothing happened down here and I saw an advisory for some crazy fog. Guess I beat it cause it was smooth sailing.

I didn’t see your second comment until now. The idea of hitting a few of those 10x come bets really wants me to just fund the 401 G. and really get serious about practice. 1 of the beauties of the whole thing is that I don’t have to learn through my own experience that come #’s get out of whack, or using 1 place bet doesn’t work. As a teacher, I personally made my game a lot better and a lot of that had to do with working and talking about the game with Men such as yourself. I don’t want to keep saying thanks but I keep picturing myself caked up n everyone looking at me like I had a magic wand. All U guys ara A-ok in my book. I have a lot of good memories the last 9 years with GTC. I’m really not the type to join groups but this was a positive experience for me. Your a Great Teacher my friend!