42 of each. ie. 42 hard fours, 42 hard sixes, 42 hard eights and 42 hard tens would be random.

Hmmmm would have thought that there would be more 6s and 8s but I am not a math guy .With less 4s and 10s .
I threw 55 4s 37 6s 51 8s and 46 10s . Just a little better then random .
So throwing hard ways is not like a pyramid as with other numbers ?
I think that if I get better at throwing them I may give them a try at betting .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

There is only one way to throw a hard 4, 6, 8 or 10 out of 36 possible rolls. Thus the odds of throwing any hardway is 35 to 1.

But there are more ways to throw a soft 6 or 8 vs. a soft 4 or 10. That is why you get paid more for a hardway 6 or 8 vs a hardway 4 or 10.

For the hard 6 or 8, there is one way to roll the hardway, six ways to roll a 7 and four ways to roll an easy 6 or 8. So the odds of making a hard 6 or 8 before rolling a 7 or easy 6 or 8 is 10 to 1 and it pays 9 to 1.

For the hard 4 or 10, there is one way to roll the hardway, six ways to roll a 7 and two ways to roll an easy 4 or 10. So the odds of making a hard 4 or 10 before rolling a 7 or easy 4 or 10 is 8 to 1 and it pays 7 to 1.

Your 55 hard 4s is good as it is 2 standard deviations (SD) above average. The magic number for 1527 rolls is 61. That would put you 3SD above random.

So I should be looking for 3 or more hard ways in 35 rolls ?
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

"Finisher" wrote: So I should be looking for 3 or more hard ways in 35 rolls ?
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Not certain I understand the question.

The smaller the sample size the larger a variance from average you need to attain 3SD. So for a sample of only 35 rolls, you would need 4 of a single hardway (such as hard 4) to attain 3SD.

If you can roll more then 3 hard ways in 36 rolls would that be a sign of maybe betting them .
I am not that good at math . So I just took your 61 number and x that by 4 then divided it into the 1527 and got 6.25 which I think would be hard to do .
I took the 189 that I rolled and divided that into 1527 to get 8.07 . So I thought that Skinny said you roll one hard way in 1in 35 .that 3 or more would be better .
I know LITTLE about sd . My math tells me that if you roll a hard way 1 in 35 then rolling 3 or more would be better and that one for every 6.25 rolls would be great but hard to do even with more rolls .Since there are more numbers that can be rolled easy .
So should I be looking for 4 or 5 hard way in a roll of 35 ?
Good Rolling. Thanks for the reply .

It comes down to sample size.

If someone rolled 36 times and got 3 hard 4s and because of that they thought they should bet hard 4 every time they picked up the dice, well, I would disagree.

Now if over 3600 rolls you landed 200 hard 4s, entirely different story. You only need 130 hard 4s over 3600 rolls to hit the 3SD mark. So even though it can be distilled down to being described as averaging 2 times out of 36, because of the large sample size, dice influencing is mathematically proven.

A full analysis should be performed to determine if the hard 4 is a wager to make. Depending on the number of soft 4s and 7s, buying the 4 may be a better wager than the hard 4.

No you should only bet t6he hard ways when you get to a point with your throw that you know you are going to throw them, at this point you will also know what one you should load up on.

Hmmm Some times I think that I am going to throw a hard way and do but most of the time I don’t think what I am going to throw .
Maybe I should think more about what I am going to throw ? But then again thinking some times gets me in trouble . 🙂 🙂
Bman do you think that if you think it you will throw it or that you know your throw is good enough to bet on the hard ways .I don’t remember how you bet the hard ways or which ones you bet on .I saw that you threw a lot of them tho .
I still feel that a lot of my hard ways are just pure luck .They just went around a few more times then they should have in the first place .Not that I did-en like the end result . 🙂 🙂

I think I started wondering about this because on one of my rolls a guy started betting the hard ways and pressed them .I don’t remember how he pressed them but do recall that he did win 2300 on a hard way that I rolled .I made my 7.00 tho .I some times bet the point number for a hard way bet or if I have a 2 unite bet on a number I will some times bet it the hard way .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Skinny, could take the time for me to calculate what your SRR needs to be to consistently bet hardways to have an edge to over come them? I thank you in advance 😀

I am glad that the subject about betting has come up again. For those of you that have not taken a refresher or even a primer class in the last two years, you should if only to learn more about betting which is just as important as throwing the dice. Billy and I have two lectures on betting and we have one breakout session on betting … that is how important GTC thinks and knows it is.

With that said we say to put aside a certain amount of your buy in …. say $10 – $15 and just use that for hardways. at the end of a session, calculate if you won or lost. Do this for a minimum of 10 sessions.

In a particular session, there are times when you are really on with your throw. Just like a 270 hitter that goes 4 for 4 on a particular day. He has a high enough average, (you are playing with an SRR of 6.23 or better), but on that particular day he is better than his average. In our case you are throwing more hardways (primary numbers) than you should with your SRR. Well maybe throwing out a hardway bet is not a bad idea on that particular session.

This was the case this past week on Nick’s last two rolls. He was throwing hardways more than he should with is SRR. So seeing this I did bet hardways on him and I made money.

The point to all this is that GTC’s Philosophy on hardway bets is NOW, that we are trying to make you understand that they carry a very high edge to them but we all know they are fun to throw. Most of the time you shouldn’t play them and you can prove this with the betting example above, but there might be times when you are right on with your throw and a small hardway bet can be lucrative.

Be aware of your throw in a session and you will be a more profitable player

Dominator

Dom, it is not quite the same with hardways as it is with overcoming the edge on a pass/come bet or place bet on the 6 or 8. With those bets you lose your bet when you throw a seven so SRR is relevant to the wager. Reduce the number of sevens you throw relative to average and you can win those bets more frequently than what the house advantage is on those bets. That is because the house advantage is based on your throwing the average number of sevens as a random roller and paying you slightly less than the true odds.

But with the hardways it is not just the seven that is in play. In order to overcome the house edge you need to do be able to either throw more hardways, fewer soft numbers of the hardway you are betting or throw fewer sevens than random on a consistent basis. Hence the answer to your question is not quite so simple because it is based on 3 factors. All 3 are working at the same time. However, I can give you a somewhat simple answer that is not totally accurate. As long as you understand the context of the answer you should be okay with it.

If we only look at SRR and assume the other 2 (number of hardways and softways) factors are not different from random you need an SRR of greater than 7.2 to overcome the house advantage on the hardway bets.

That’s why I love you Skinny! You are so right and I just wasn’t thinking that way this morning.

thanks so much for the impute!

Dom