Louis, if my memory serves me correctly we left the table. I would say don’t be paranoid as the 5 count is fair. You will seldom get this kind of heat. Frankly I don’s know what their problem is as they have a certain math advantage that cannot be beaten with the exception of the GTC skilled player. The only way I can see that it might not be fair is, if the table and all tables in the casino are packed and people are wanting to get to the table, he might have a point. But remember this is our way to play and we should not deviate from it.

When this happens in the future I usually say something like "I am waiting for him to prove him (her) self" or I say "I usually don’t bet until the shooter makes a point." The pit boss will usually buy that. I have seen many players (chicken feeders) wait until the shooter has several rolls. A third thing you can do is put $6 on the 6 or the 8 on chicken feeders and keep your exposure very low–you are making a bet and he can’t complain. Then when it is your turn to roll or some one you know who is a good roller has his turn, make a pass line or come bet with a bunch of odds so that you have a big difference between your $6 bet and the spread on your/your friend’s turn with the dice.

You can probably go back to the same casino on a different shift when that pit "idiot" is not around or it is his day off. Remember there are usually other casinos in the area.

In another kind of "heat" such as the casino saying you cannot reach out past the prop area in the middle of the table, simply step back a foot or so and roll. I usually ask if that roll is acceptable. If he says no, I pass the dice, color up and leave. There is always another casino, another craps table where you are welcome. If he says yes, I refocus and move forward and ignore him.

Bottom line, I think the 5 count is fair. We are no different from any person who enters the casino to play. We all have one thing in mind–win some of the casino”s money. So what else is new.

Just a few thoughts. Hope others will post their thoughts.

Doc
PS–Remember you are in charge of how you play not the casino. So play at places where you feel welcome.

Fair or not fair. You have to decide what to do with your bankroll, not the casino. If they continue giving you heat when using the 5 count, I suggest you play at another casino. Do not let the pit critters tell you how to play your game.

Cmcierra

If you say something like, "I am not just betting on myself. I am waiting for the shooter to qualify and then I will bet on him", that usually settles it for most casino personnel.

Many regular craps players qualify a player by waiting for him to make a point, wait for him to repeat a box number, use some form of charting to qualify the shooter, etc.

The point is, qualifying a shooter is an accepted procedure that is known as part of the game by most all casino personnel. Do not use the term 5-count because that singles you out as a GTC player or the person may not even know what you are talking about. But qualifying a shooter is a fairly common and accepted technique.

You could also try making a joke by saying, "All the shooters are sevening out very early and I will be happy to bet on them with your money. But I am not putting my money on them until they qualify."

The Princess and I use a "3-box" count (we don’t count come out rolls or horn #’s) — which really is a modified version of the 5-count — it just works for us especially in AC.

And, remember, we play as a team, so we bet the 6 for $12, it’s only $6 each per person

The problem comes in when we constantly bet the fire bet on CF-ers (they hit them too) and we’re not betting anything else on the table. Depending on the SUPV, he/she will give us heat about not making any other bets on the layout. Then the Princess & I modify our strategy and one of us plays the Don’t Pass for $10 and the other plays the Pass Line for $12 — basically, we have $2 line bet, and we comply with their bet requirement if we want the fire bet, and we can put CHEAP odds behind the pass line to "have the point." It is rare that we have to resort to this style of play, but it does SHUT them up, and that’s all we care about.

you could place a bet and turn it off durning your five count then turn it on after the five count has been met!

Thanks Guys for the replies and yes Doc we left the table. LOL. So what do you think of actually having a small notepad and recording your rolls? I have seen some people do this do you think this is ok to do at the table?

They will think you are some nut with a system that does not work .
I just came back from Vegas and at the table there was 3 10.00 fire bets on other side of table with 2 players standing there . I asked the dealer about that . He told me that the other player is at the next table .I asked if that was legal and he said yes . I said that I thought you needed to make a place or DP BET TO MAKE A FIRE BET . He said no
So I guess it is not written in stone . It is how each casino or should I say PIT critter likes to do it .They make the rules to what they like . It is their game .
It went a little crazy at the table . This guy would move from one table to another .
He was at 7 spot and after his roll he left table but left his place bets up with a fire bet .Went to next table . Another player came to his spot but then he came back and when one of his place bets hit the other player was confused about the pay off .Since he went to spot 5 .The dealer said that he needed to move over to spot 5 but the returning player said that it would be alright if he stayed there .The dealer then moved his chips over to the 5 spot .
After the 6 spot shooter 7 out he got the dice again .
After he 7 out is when he made the 10.00 fire bet on the next roller then went to the next table again .
I saw that he was keeping a eye on our table .
I did not stay after my roll to see when he came back to table ,but am sure that it was just in time to roll again .
All of this stuff SLOWED the game down .
He got to roll the dice twice before I got to roll .I guess that is right in some way ???
You could just make a 1.00 fire bet then go to rest room and hope for the win when you come back .
LOL . 🙂 🙂 🙂
If they get on you again ask for a towel and then tell them that you will think about what they said .Then when you get back tell them that sh888 happens .
I am sure they will remember you next time if you ever go back .Which I would not for a while .
I listen a lot and hear the dealers talk bad about the pit critters a lot .Some of them hate the pit critters not all but that is life and they have to put up with the bad ones too .
Do what is best for you and it will turn out for the better .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Skinny,

I’m going to use your line about their money and qualifying the shooter, great line.

TheLion,

I never bet the firebet, the 20%+ HA is too much for my money. Colorado only pays $299 besides.

I always use the 5-count, saves me a fortune. If a pit starts telling me how I must bet I color up and leave, it
is my money and not theirs.

OMC

Finisher, You are right about the dice dealers many times not liking the pit critters. I guess we all have had to put up with some less than great bosses/fellow employees in our respect careers.

Which brings up the Dilbert principle–if your are not familiar with Dilbert he is in a comic strip in the newspaper by the same name. The principle is—work sucks or they would not have to pay you to do it.

Doc

Lion, why not one of you play the pass line the other the don’t pass and you have not money at risk unless on the come out roll the chicken feeder (Cf’er for short) rolls a 12. Either this method or your method really does keep your exposure down.

Doc

OMC

In 2013, the Princess & I hit almost 20 fire bets — a mix of 6, 5, and 4-pointers

This year, I hit a 6….2 5-pointers ….and 5 4-pointers.

This year, the Princess has hit 16 4-pointers …. she’s still trying to a hit 5 or 6 this year …. she has less than 20 days to do it

We swear by the fire bet and we count on hitting one each time we play — does not happen all the time ….. but, the majority of my winnings this year is because of the fire bet.

Doc — we do use that strategy (see my first post in this thread) — we don’t resort to it too much. But, in AC at a recently closed casino you HAD to have a line bet to make a fire bet. We used to "do-ey – don’t" it for each of us, but then we had $20 against the 12 … we then started to do separate bets (one pass….one don’t)

The place knew we played as a team, and what we were trying to do, but they could not do anything about it — we both had "LINE" bets

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not reducing your exposure by betting the doey-don’t.

It only seems that way because the 12 only comes up once in every thirty-six rolls on average for a random roller. As human beings we tend to overlook the loss on the 12 because it comes up so rarely. Plus we only lose the PL bet but get to keep the DP wager. So it seems like we are not losing very much. When we lose a PL or DP wager the whole bet gets swept away and seems like more of a loss than that push on the 12. But that one in thirty-six loss is enough to make the doey-don’t wager almost identical to a pass or don’t pass line wager.

The HA on a Pass Line wager is -1.41%
The HA on the doey-don’t is -1.39%
The HA on the Don’t Pass wager is – 1.36%

If the two of you each bet $10 on the PL for a total of $20 wagered, your expected loss would be 28.2 cents.
If you play the doey-don’t for $10 each, betting a total of $20, your expected loss would be 27.8 cents.
If you both bet $10 on the DP for a total of $20 wagered, your expected loss would be 27.2 cents.
You say you bet $12 on the PL and $10 on the DP. Your expected loss for that combined wager is 30.6 cents.

Unless you want to make a point of making it look like you are "rubbing it in his face" by playing the doey-don’t you are not saving any significant money when you do so vs. both playing the PL or DP. But if he is a really sharp pit critter he will know that in reality that way of betting is not saving you any money.

Skinny — we ONLY use this strategy if the casino we play at requires us to make "a bet" to be in the game for $10 if want want to bet the fire bet

As I said before, the one casino in AC (now closed) absolutely REQUIRED a line bet to bet the fire bet. We found the doing the do-ey/don’t as the cheapest way to play on CF-ers as we employ our 3-box count and STILL have the fire bet in case of a "Craps-Gods" miracle

The do-ey don’t sure beats the heck out of a $12 SIX and a $12 EIGHT all night long, just to be able to make a FIRE BET

I agree that playing the doey-don’t the way you do is a heck of a lot better than placing the 6 and 8 for $12 each. Your expected loss on those two place bets is 36.5 cents. That is a heck of a lot more than the 30.6 cents you can expect to lose when you bet $12 on the PL and $10 on the DP.

But I do not want folks to think they can beat the house edge by playing the doey-don’t. In reality it is not much different than playing the pass line by itself or don’t pass line all by itself. Yes it is a better wager than the place bet on the 6 or 8, but so is the PL and DP.

Since you were not convinced when I gave you the HA for each wager let me try explaining it a different way.

If you make 1980 wagers on the PL and the Princess makes 1980 wagers on the PL, you can expect to win 1952 times and lose 2008 times. You can expect a net loss of 56 bets (2008 – 1952 = 56) for the two of you.

If you make 1980 wagers on the DP and the Princess makes 1980 wagers on the DP, you can expect to win 1898 times, lose 1952 times and push 110 times with a twelve. Since you break even on the twelves, you can expect a net loss of 54 bets (1952 – 1898 = 54) for both of you combined.

If you make 1980 wagers on the PL and the Princess makes 1980 wagers on the DP at the same time, you are playing the doey-don’t. You will have 976 wins on the PL that will be offset by the 976 losses for the Princess on the DP. You will have 1004 losses on the PL that correspond to 949 wins for the Princess on the DP and 55 pushes for the Princess on the DP. You can expect a net loss of 55 bets (1004 – 949 = 55) for your team.

Here is what this all means:

You can each make a single bet on the PL and expect to lose 56 bets.
You can make one bet on the PL and one bet on the DP and expect to lose 55 bets.
You can each make a single bet on the DP and expect to lose 54 bets.

In the end it amounts to essentially the same thing. You are not saving money by betting the PL and DP at the same time, it only seems that way. You could both bet the PL or both bet the DP and end up with approximately the same loss over the life of your gaming career.

If you feel better betting the PL and DP at the same time, that is fine. I am not trying to tell you how to bet your money. I just want you to go into this with your eyes open, understanding the math of the game.

I realize you only do this on occasion when you are forced to bet on a random roller because of the rules of some casino. But I have seen several people suggest playing the doey-don’t as a way to save money. I do not want folks on this board to think they can avoid the house advantage by betting the doey-don’t because that is not so. The math does not support that theory. The house is going to get their edge in a random game no matter what you do.

If I understand this correctly, this would be "doubly" bad for an individual bettor.

Using the same example of a $10 minimum bet over 1980 wagers:

With a $10 bet on the PL, I would expect to win 976 times and lose 1004 times. I would expect a net loss of 28 bets (1004 – 976 = 28) or $280.

With a $10 bet on the DP, I would expect to win 949 times , lose 976 times and push 55 times with a twelve. I would expect a net loss of 27 bets (976 – 949 = 27) or $270.

With a $10 bet on the PL and a $10 bet on the DP, I would expect 976 wins on the PL offset by 976 losses on the DP. I would have 1004 losses on the PL that correspond to 949 wins on the DP and 55 pushes on the DP. I would expect a net loss of 55 bets (1004 – 949 = 55) or $550.

Since I am effectively doubling my bases bet from $10 to $20 by playing the doey-don’t my expected losses double.

That is a very good point Chuckman and yes you are correct that it would be doubly bad for an individual bettor for the reason you gave. It does not hurt the Lion and the Princess because they are making two $10 wagers either way.

Some of Franks early books recommended using the doey-don’t as a way of being able to take odds with minimum risk. Later GTC came to realize the error of this as you stated above. One has to double ones bet to take the same amount of odds when playing the doey-don’t. That is why GTC no longer recommends using the doey-don’t for an individual bettor.

I came across an article on the doey-don’t in the archives section. I thought it was too technical at first. But some who like math might be interested in it. Click on the following link.

http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=729

If a comment is made about not betting on every shooter, I have told the dealer, box, or suit the following.

"I can only control 2 things at the table. I have control over when I make a bet, and how much I bet. Everything else is up to the Craps gods. If I can bet with your money I will bet each and every roll."

It usually works.

NFF

I would tell them I had to save my money for my roll so I could tip them more when it was my turn. Or I only bet on myself and ladies. Honestly I have not heard this my self. We had no problem that evening with the 5 count if I remember correctly. I was there Thursday night and I should have 5 counted myself also. LOL See you soon Louis. Great post.

Skinny My question is how often does the 12 come out on a come out roll for a loss .
I went back on one of my roll sessions just to get an idea . The session had a total of 1726 rolls with 30 being 12s . There were 6 that were come out rolls .
Which do not think that is many . I don’t know how many pl bets I made .
What % OF YOUR 12 SHOULD BE COME OUT LOSSES .
The 12 shows so many times in 36 rolls but that may or may not be a come out roll .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Finisher,

I am only talking about come out rolls. The answer to your question is the 12 comes out 1 time in every 36 come out rolls for a loss .

Let us look at it this way. A random roller can expect to throw 1 twelve for every 36 come out rolls. With the doey-don’t you lose 1/2 of what you are betting when you throw a twelve on the come out. You lose your PL wager and push your DP wager. So if you are betting $10 on each for a total of $20 wagered, you will lose $10 or 1/2 of your total wager when you throw a twelve on the come out. You will break even on all the other 35 rolls that are possible on the come out.

If you wager $10 on the PL and $10 on the DP you will wager a total of $720 in 36 come out rolls. You can expect to lose $10 the one time in 36 that you roll a twelve. You can expect to lose $10 for every $720 that you wager. Thus the House Advantage is $10 divided by $720 = -1.389%. That is what I said above is the HA for the doey-don’t.

You said you looked at a session with 1726 rolls in which you had 6 twelves on come out rolls. How many of those 1726 rolls were come out rolls? Was it around 216?

Skinny

Thanks so much for the info — Yep, I understand the math, etc.

We just use the strategy if the casino gets on us for betting the fire with no other bets out there — and it’s rare that they do, so we’re not playing this way too much on any given day

We barely bet on CF-ers, so it’s up to us to shoot well to win — and, hopefully, we’re able to get other GTC "teammates" to join us in order to provide some "help" during the play sessions

The bottom line is this you have no chance of winning on the doey don’t.

You are only doing it to see if you can get lucky on the fire, so you are playing to get lucky, so play that way, and bet on one or the other and give yourself a chance to win, not loose at a very slow pace!

Are you there to win, or are you there just to play?

We play to win when we or our fellow GTC teammates shoot

We try to get lucky on the fire bet with CF-ers — we don’t put too much $$$$ out there on them and thus, our risk/exposure is very low

We’ve been contemplating not even doing the fire on the CF-ers — just implement our 3-box count and make one bet if they get past it

here is some numbers for you if you think you are playing to win.

you have hit 1, 6 2, 5 and 5,4 number fire bets now saying you bet 5dollars on each you would of collected 8125 dollars.

Now lets say you have played 50 days this year4 sessions a day 15 fie bets per session that is 3000 fire bets made costing you 15,000 where is the profit?

In 2014 (9 total fire — ONE 6 pointer/ Two 5 pointers / SIX 4 pointers (in 2013, I hit 14 fires)

The 6 point fire was a 75-roll in LV with $10 on it for $10,000

One of the two 5-pointers was in LV with $10 on it for $2,500

I count on the fire bet to make money — long rolls (40+) are nice, but VERY rare (especially in AC in 2014) — the fire bet is more attainable (IMHO) than a long killer roll

So that is 16500 won and 30,000 lost even a bigger reason to think about it.

Remember the whole thing is about fun.

Kool aid is still king around here.

Skinny I went back and counted all PW and the 7 outs . But after I did that I forgot that if I rolled a 7 or 11 for a win then that would mean a new come out roll . So I came up with 341 come out rolls not counting if I had rolled an 11 or 7 or a 2 or 3 .So there was more come out rolls then that .
I have the numbers written down but think that the few 12s was a good number for that many come out rolls .
With the math that you talked about I should have a least 10 come out 12s or more which I had 6 .At a glance I had 72 come out 7s for win . I did not go back to see about the 11s or 2 and 3 numbers which should make the 6 come out 12s seem better ?
I have NEVER played the doey don’t way .Seems like more work then fun . I have only played the DP side a few times .
Math can be fuzzy at times .
Like the time when me and 2 Friends shared the cost of some thing for 10.00 each . BUT LATER FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS 25.00 AND WHEN THE GUY BROUGHT BACK THE 5.00 i TOLD HIM TO KEEP 2 .00 for himself so I only had to give back 1.00 to each friend .They said you gave the guy a 3.00 tip ? Of course I said YES .daaaa THE MATH IS FUZZY . 🙂 🙂
I am sure glad you are great at this math stuff .Also that you do have the right answers .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Finisher, that is really good and yes you are correct. In 341 come out rolls a random shooter could expect between 9 and 10 twelves. You throwing only 6 is significantly better than random.

Also when you said you had 30 twelves in your 1726 total rolls that is also a great number. Random would expect 48 twelves in 1726 rolls.

You definitely were avoiding the twelve in that practice session. Keep up the good work.

Oh and you should have told your friends you did not give the guy a $3 tip. Since you each got $1 back you each paid $9. The item cost $25 and you gave him a $2 tip. That is where the $27 that the 3 of you paid in total went. It is not 27+2=29 but rather 27-2=25

Or you could say you each paid $10 originally for a total of $30. $25 went for the item, $1 went back to each of you and you gave the guy a $2 tip. $25 for the item, $3 in total to you and your friends plus $2 tip equals the $30 you began with originally.

You see it all has to do with "switching operations" (switching addition for subtraction) which is math speak for saying keep things straight and you will get it right.

Skinny Yes I did give the guy a 2.00 tip . Yes I did say that I gave him a 3.00 tip . If I did not say what I did I would have to try to explain why 27 plus 2 is not 30 all the time or is some times . 🙂 🙂
Simple math can be fuzzy some times .
Just like on this site when some are talking about pennies when the casino only pays in dollars .
Some times we need to look at it from both sides not just the correct way .
So the other guy says we all got 1 .00 back and paid 9.00 each and that is 27.00 so I want to know were the other 1.00 went if you left a 2.00 tip . Are you ripping us OFF . That was all avoided by looking at both sides before I said YES . 🙂 🙂
I am not a math guy and I think I would not want to explain the difference .
Some things I am not good at explaining .
I got lazy and did not go back to see about the other numbers .( 11, 2 .and 3 . )
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Brothelman—

According to my 2013 W/L #’s, your math is a bit overzealous — and trust me, Uncle Sam thanks me for 2013

And, it’s off for Fy14 too, according to my 2014 W/L #’s

Remember, only $10 fires in LV and we go there only 1-2 times per year. We do $5 fires in AC, maybe 15-20 trips per year

Our initial spread is $54 in total for 3 numbers (assuming 6 or 8 is not the point) including the fire bet ….so it’s $27 per person —- so we bet CHEAP and try to hit the fire — unless we PSO, we usually can get ahead, lose a little bit, or break even) on our rolls

Lion I think Bman thought you rolled as much if not more then he does with those numbers .
He lives in Nev. and meets up with a lot on this site . He is a good Ambassador for GTC and craps in general .
I like the travel throw box that he has made .
If able he will meet with all .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Thanks for the kind words finisher but I do not go play much any more.

You know a very smart man told me that at this stage of the game I should be a professional and I am not there to much bothers me at the table, I must learn to focus through the delays late bets and so on.

So the journey continues.

When I throw that seven I did it no one made me.

Now as for the lion he drank the cool aid he plays into the bets that he feels are best for his game and I applaud that. faith and confidence are two of the keys to this thing we try to do.

Brothelman / Finisher

We (the Princess and I) play on the east coast (AC primarily)

We go to LV about 1-2 times per year

We play a cheap game ($54 spread for 3 numbers, inlc the two $5 fire bets) when we shoot — We barely bet on CF-ers (unless they pass our 3-box count)

Our winning sessions are because of the fire bets we’ve hit and about 10 5-point fires from randoms over the past 2 years.

My overall win in 2013 was because of all the fires that we won on (we hit 21 (14 for me/7 for the Princess) in total & won quite a few from CF-ers)

I’m up in 2014 because of the 6-point and 5-point fires I hit in LV for $12,500

It’s hard to make lots of $$$$$ starting out with a $12 SIX and a $12 EIGHT and $10PL and $10 odds …. but we play cheap primarily on one bankroll (MINE)

We’d love to shoot with you in LV sometime — we’re planning a June 7-17, 2015 trip to LV to celebrate my 50th birthday on April 2

Lion I try to play at 5.00 tables . So bet 16.00 or17.00 inside .
So I also know how hard it is to make money .
I bye in for 200.00 to last all day which at times it does .If it does not I wait for another day .It is easy to get in a hole real fast tho .I have changed my betting ways since taking class . Never get any heat about betting on others . This last trip I decided to take bets off and started talking to some one and forgot to put them back on . The roller rolled about 12 to 15 more rolls before he 7 out with him not hitting one 6 or 8 which were my off bets . I guess it was a good thing I forgot that they were off . I turn them off when a crap number is rolled . It seems to work .
I had a dealer say that I did it 17 times right , but who counts .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂