Just to throw my two cents in, is it cheating when one counts cards? Is it cheating when one is able to control the dice when thrown? Is it cheating when one is able to track the wheel on a roulette table and have an idea where the ball is going to drop?

I don’t believe he did anything wrong. It is the responsibility of the casino to make sure their games can not be exploited. They can bring in continuous shuffle machines. But if Phil Ivey was able to keep track of the cards because of a misprint on those cards, he is not at fault. In fact I commend him. I wish I was that smart.

Midnight

I agree with you Midnight. I wish I was that smart too. Doughboy

I equate what Ivey did as the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. If an entity, in this case the casino, has a loophole in its system, similar to a tax loophole, that allows a rule abiding and/or law abiding person to exploit it, it is the responsibility of that casino to detect it and close it or deal with the consequences. Now, on the other hand, if someone were to completely try to skirt the system (rigging the reels, bringing loaded dice to the table, etc . . .), then I would consider that cheating. All Ivey did was find an exploit and then used it to make himself some money and now the casino is pissed they have egg on their face and got taken for a ride. Take your lumps, learn from it, and move on.

By using cards that he knew was defective he was effectively "marking the cards". I agree with the judge. If he was such a great player it shouldn’t matter what the backs of the cards look like. A controlled shooters uses the dice the casino provides, he doesn’t request certain types of dice.

RichInMich

But if the casino has a no setting policy, is it cheating if I convince the stick to send them out with a hard 10?

In the first place, why would you be playing in a no setting casino?

OMC

Nice table, awesome crew, only game for miles, perhaps.

Usually it is the box on that shift that will make that "policy".

Again, would it be considered "cheating" if the casino allows it?

I find RFinks comments rather interesting. If Ivy found a flaw and that is what gives him the edge, in escence could that not be called cheating to win.??

Dice controller as stated by others use the dice provided and we practice so hard to get the edge that would decrease the randomness of the toss.

Card counters and great poker players are just that. They practice and know the cards and odds along with the weakness of their component players.

Now, the real people that I think are liable are the company that made the defective cards that have the flaws on their cards. Let them pay Ivy.

NickAtNight,

If you asked the casino for defective dice and the casino willingly provided them, is it cheating? Sure it is, the casino employee(s) that provided the dice would be in on it.

The question remains why would a casino willingly provide "defective" cards and actively assist the players "cheat" using them. Would a casino allow a dealer to tell the players, the next card is a low or high one, place your bets. That is in effect, what happened.

RichInMich

Come on 22 Mil He did not do this in one hour . Some thing is fishier then what is going on . We think we get heat who was there with that kind of action ? Were they just scratching there ???? or what .
Casinos pay lots to find loop holes for them to use period no questions asked most of the time .
They pay good money for good cards which they did not get .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

He asked for the dealer he wanted, he asked for the cards he wanted, the casino said ok. The casino thought they could beat him anyway !
When he wins, they start crying and don’t want to pay him. Ever missed the back wall and no one said anything ? Have you missed the back wall on the same table around roll 20 and NOT get told to hit the back wall ? When you are losing the rules are looser than when you are winning. I think they should have paid him and learned from there mistakes. I’m sure the Judge was impartial also!

I don’t see much difference between this and the case at the Golden Nugget where the players realized the cards were coming out in a specific order at a mini-bac game and they took advantage of that knowledge.

In that case the judge ruled in favor of the players.

http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9091&p=25219&hilit

This is the same situation. Phil Ivey noticed a pattern on the back of the cards that he could use to his advantage.

In both cases the casino is at fault for not recognizing they had a problem with the cards they were using. Their recourse should be with the company that supplied the cards not the players.

The players did not mark the cards or take any illegal action to influence the cards.

If requesting a specific deck of cards and a certain type of dealer is illegal the casino should not have granted Ivey’s request. In addition, I am certain they had casino management observing the game for the type of money that was being played. The casino allowed this to occur and should be required to pay their losses.

Casinos have no problem giving players free drinks to try to impair their judgement when gambling. They try to keep players in the game by having no windows or clocks on the gaming floor so folks lose track of time. They hire psychologists to determine what type of colors and patterns to use on the gaming floor to encourage gamblers to play. They offer games where the mathematics heavily favor the casino.

In other words, casinos have no problem stacking the deck in their favor. But when the shoe is on the other foot, they cry foul. What is good for the goose (casino) should be good for the gander (player).

Skinny is SO right in ALL that he said but it is there game . They wanted his play or they would have told him no more like some on this site have been to;d period .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Wow< The other day I watch that CBS Sports special on Phil Ivey . it was very enlightening. Looks like the Casino granted the requests of Phil for a certain type of card manufacturer, a specific shuffle machine that he knew kept the cards in order, I believe an Asian dealer ans his friend that spoke Manderian or such so that she could kabitz friendly talk with the dealer.

Great interview. Phil prewired the bucks up front as they requested and the Casino granted Phils requests!

the CBS Sports interview answered many question. Watch it if you can ..

Good fortune to all of you in the Casinos

NickatNight

here is a preview of what Nick@Night was talking about from 60 Minutes. I could not find the full episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAVkIRtdSYU

If you subscribe to Showtime you should be able to see the episode on the following link. You may have to download Showtime Anywhere software and/or enter your information from the provider that supplies you with Showtime.

http://www.showtimeanytime.com/?s_cid=2014_9_SHO_LandingPage#/episode/3400470

In the interview Phil states (and I agree with him) casinos try to equate cheating with advantage play but they are very different things. He did not use any special equipment, mark the cards or do anything that the casino did not agree to up front. The casinos spend millions of dollars on game management and game control. It is their responsibility to make sure the cards do not have any imperfections. It is not up to the player to tell them about imperfections in the cards the casino puts in the game.

A good point he makes is that if what he did was illegal, then why didn’t the NJ police arrest him? If it was illegal, why didn’t the casino report it to the police and have him arrested? The answer is obvious. What he did is not illegal. If it were, Phil Ivey would not have done it. His reputation is far too important for him to jeopardize it by cheating.

How many of you remember Don Johnson who took the AC casinos for $15 million in blackjack? He did it by negotiating a favorable game which the casinos agreed to give him. Specifically he got them to agree to a 20% loss rebate with conditions that gave him an edge over the casino.

http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8222&p=22606&hilit

Was he cheating because he figured out a way to get a mathematical edge to which the casinos agreed? Was he required to tell them he would have an edge if they granted his request?

This is no different than what Phil Ivey did when he took advantage of edge sorting to give him an approximate 5% edge over the casino. As we all know it is still possible to lose even with a 5% edge. They had their shot at him and they lost thru their own stupidity and by not getting lucky enough to overcome the edge he had on them.

They should have become suspicious when he requested a specific brand of cards. They know who Phil Ivey is and he does not do things haphazardly. He is a smart guy who know what he is doing. They are in the gaming business. When a brilliant card player wants to play a game with you where he knows you have an edge, but makes certain conditions under which he will play, you should look at those conditions very carefully. The casinos screwed up and lost as a result of their own stupidity, not Phil Ivey cheating them. They were outsmarted and I for one say good for Phil.

If I understand this correctly, Ivy was playing in London an entirely different jurisdiction where they might have a very different take on what Ivy was doing. Perhaps Phil should have cashed in some of his chips from time to time during when I assume was playing for several days or weeks. I am sure the casino could have closed down the table and not let hims play until they figured out what he was doing.

Should Phil be paid? Absolutely. The casino was not very smart.

Doc

He played at the Borgata in Atlantic City who did pay him $9.6 million. The Borgata sued Ivey to get their money back and that case is still pending.

He also played at Genting’s Crockfords casino in the Mayfair section of London, England in August, 2012 where he won $12.4 million. They did not pay him and Ivey sued them for his money. That case was just settled (10/8/14) and the judge ruled in favor of the casino. The judge, who admitted he has never been in a casino and sticks to bridge, commended the American on his truthfulness but ruled his actions amounted to ‘cheating for the purposes of civil law’. He also denied Ivey permission to appeal his verdict.

I am in favor of anything legal to beat the casino—whether it be card counting at BJ or dice control at the craps table.

However it seems that I have read something that it is deeded illegal if you have an advantage that no other player has. For example is you are at 3rd base playing BJ and the dealer is frequently exposing his down card to you as he/she deals and you are the only one who can see the down card, that is considered an unfair advantage and not legal.

However if you are playing some sort of BJ game where a "natural/blackjack" pays even money and the dealer is paying 3 to 2 for a BJ all the players have the same ability to see this error and can take advantage of it, it is a different story. . Have actually seen this in a casino.

Another example: I was playing BJ game with a 6 deck shoe on a boat out of Galveston, Texas–just south of Houston, and the dealers were very inexperience. If one dealer had an Ace up she would peak at her down card before asking for insurance. If she had a 10 value card down she would ask if anyone wanted insurance. If she did not have a face card down she would begin to deal. Only took a couple of times to realize that she was making this procedural error. Every time she asked for insurance I took it as I knew she had a natural. The other players thought I was brilliant. I told them I was simply lucky. This was available to everyone but I was the only one to take advantage of it.

Just my $.02 worth.

Doc

Doc,

Using your example, I wonder if you believe Ivey was cheating? Couldn’t any one have done what he did?

Noah

I was thinking the same thing ACPA. Card counting, edge sorting and controlled shooting are all skills and techniques that can be learned by anyone.

So Phil "cheated" enough that the casino was able to refuse payment, but not enough to bring criminal charges.

Sure, that make perfect sense to me. 😕

Put that way sounds like slots to me . 😮 😮 😮 😯 😯