Rod Carew has a .328 batting average and I’m sure he had numerous 0 for 5’s ……he also had numerous 5 for 5’s

just hang in there and TRUST what you’ve learned

Keep practicing

This will not be much help to solve the problem. It is intended as encouragement from a similar time in my own training.
I went thru such a tough time just about the same amount of time after my primer class. The frustration was driving me nuts.
I almost gave up because of it. As luck would have it my refresher class came to the rescue. The instructors quickly found and
Fixed a minor grip flaw. Long story short as you get better the more a very minor flaw has a negative influence on the result.
You see influence over the dice is not always positive. Continue doing just what you described. Stick with the fundamentals and
Your practice with a positive mind set (not easy for sure). This will pass. The problem is minor just as mine was. The guys will
Fix it in Oct. Stay the course this is just part of the learning curve nothing more.

JRC

Jawbones, it is very difficult to correct something without actually seeing your grip and toss, but I will throw out a couple of suggestions:

1) Make sure your grip is loose, and not too tight. One way to do this is to let the dice fall from your fingers just above the table. They should fall and land together softly if the pressure is correct. If the pressure is too tight, the dice will not land softly and flat at the other end. They will land on their edges.

2) Use a mirror on the table to check that your fingers are straight across in back. Do not move them when you pick up from the gripper, or they will go out of alignment. When practicing, it is easy to check this with the sixes in back, making sure all the white pips are covered evnly. By the same token, then put the fives in front so you can see if your thumb is covering the pips evenly. Try to see how the dice feel when your grip is correct.

3) Use a mirror in back of your throwing table to make sure you are going straight back, and not going inside. Also, use a long mirror behind the receiving table to make sure you have a correct follow through. Don’t let your hand drop, and reach for the wall.

4) Work on one component at a time, until you are certain your mechanics are correct.

If there are other GTC’ers in your area, try to get together so you can critique each other.
Good luck, and please let me know how these suggestions work out for you.

Goddess

Thank you all for your responses. Goddess, as far as I can tell this is exactly the way I practice but I love your suggestion to find a GTC’er in my area. My wife is taking the Primer course in October when I am doing the Refresher. We should be able to help each other after that.

If there are any GTC’ers in the Cincinnati, OH area, give me a shout and we’ll see if we can start up a practice group (and playing group for that matter).

I appreciate the help.

Dennis

Jawbones — the Goddess is correct — and I’m sure there are other "technical issues" with your throw that the instructors (or some of the GTC students) can pick up. Just keep pushing on and working hard to perfect the toss. It takes time though….be patient

Also, I’m a Cincinnati Reds fan and have wanted to get back out to GABP to catch a Reds weekend series — it’s a LONG drive from Maryland, though

If the Princess and I get out to CINN, I will let you know and we’ll hit the Total Rewards Casino in town

You should try to come out to Atlantic City and play there — we’re about 170 miles from AC and we’ll meet you there

It’ll be a great time

Thanks Lion. Never been to AC but would love to make it there some time. Let me know when you are in town. Not a very good stretch for the Reds right now. Hoping they can turn it around again.

Reds are TOAST — with Votto and Phillips hurting, they are in deep trouble

Team has ZERO professional hitters — just a bunch of softball hitting, double-play guys — except for Hamilton

Just the opposite of the Cardinals

Maybe someday we’ll meet up (either in Cincinnati or AC)

Keep practicing and working hard

What Goddess has said is right on. I was going to say the same thing but not need to repeat this excellent advice.

Early on in my GTC journey I was talking to Dom about some additional instruction and he said to come on as it would not take long to correct some minor flaw in my grip, throw, etc. He was correct. It was diagnosed in no time and changes were made then I got to practice under the watchful eyes of the instructors for 2 days and I was good to go.

Just remember the pros on the PGA tour are getting looked at on a weekly basis and at golf they are the best there is. We are no different, so don’t be afraid to have some corrections made with the GTC staff whether it be refresher, advanced, tune up. or elite video. The investment (not an expense) in your advantage play journey will pay you many dividends.

My only concern is that the flaws you may have will only be ingrained into your throw so you may want to really do some self critiquing. You may even want to lay off some until the October class.

Remember the more you develop and practice a bad habit the harder it is to correct. That is why we tell primer students not to play or practice too much before taking the class as correcting flaws is much more difficult to correct that teaching the correct techniques.

Please keep that in mind.

Doc

Doc — great advice

I’m considering doing some type of class in AC in SEPT 2014

Maybe the video or a tune-up w/Mr. Finesse (maybe the advanced ??) — just not sure yet — but, definitely something

The Princess and I are headed to AC this weekend — I’ll post a trip report next week

Thanks again Doc for all the great advice you give on this board. Since I just started in April with GTC, do you think it is too early to do an Elite Video analysis in Vegas as well as the refresher or should I get the refresher first and then practice more before the Elite Video?

Everybody has said good stuff.

All I can add–and some of you remember this–is that a few years ago, what you are writing could have been me! I was just about ready to quit at one point. My solution was to take a video tune up…or whatever they call it. Changed my game completely. Most importantly, it documented my set up, grip, backswing, foreswing (if there is such a thing), release, landing area…everything. What the video did for me was it highlighted what the problem areas were so that I knew what to practice on.

My two cents worth. Now I know what is likely to be wrong when my game goes awry. At least I know where to check first. But, whatever you do….

Keep On Rollin!

Alamo

answer me this.

Put a little bowl on the table no more that 3inches in diameter put it where you want to land the dice, now throw to it how many times out of twenty do both dice land in the bowl?

Not sure B-Man but I will find out and let you know.

Something that I forgot to say earlier in this thread is variance. There will be ups and down. Big swings up and down from time to time. This is the reason we stress having an adequate 401G to get you through those down swings—they will occur so accept them. As No Field Five says "trust your throw."

Example in practice today. I had three turns with the dice and never got a pay day much less a pass line winner–longest roll was a 6 with three 7’s—2 were come out 7’s. The 4th turn with the dice was a little better with 2 paydays—one was a pass line win. It was a 19 roll hand but I still lost money as I had 4 numbers covered–frankly too many craps numbers. Then on the 5 turn with the dice and some corrections, the dice were magic with a 42 hand and I don’t know how many pay days. Won a net of $800 even after the losses on the prior 4 hands.

We have a small long term advantage so we treat the casino like they treat us—which is always using their edge to chip away at our money. WE ARE THE CASINO WITH THE ADVANTAGE IN THE LONG RUN so we chip away at their money.

I admit I was pretty down after the 4th turn with the dice but I just keep playing. TRUST YOUR THROW AS TAUGHT.

Just my comments from the peanut gallery.

Doc

Boy can I relate to this post. Started out good, saw some improvements, and then the dice gods slapped me upside my head repeatedly. I can’t recall how many times I thought about quitting. Every 7 I threw I felt was mocking me. Strings of 5 and 6 sevens in a row were not uncommon. If I were practicing with chips, it seemed the results would get worse and I would sweat the pretend money.

Then it hit me! The worse I did, the more I got down on myself, which would cause me to do worse. Vicious downward spiral. So I took something from kids sports today.

Don’t keep score.

I thought my grip was good. What I thought was light pressure wasn’t as light as I thought. What I thought was even pressure was off. My shoulders weren’t lined up properly and my backswing would come inside. I felt like Tin Cup when he had the Shanks.

First thing I changed was my mental state. After every shot I would find something positive about it. Sometimes the only thing I could find good about a shot was that both dice hit the table at some point. Other times they looked like Dom himself had taken over my body and made that shot. When that would happen, I would try to remember what it felt like and what was my mental state before the shot. I apply this same technique to my golf game and it helps.

Second I spent more time working on my grip than I did shooting. That way when Mr Finese asked you how much you practice your grip, you will have a better answer than "zero". 😉

Lastly, I stopped setting the dice for a while. I was too focused on the destination and not the journey. This allowed me to watch the dice in flight, how they landed, what direction they went towards the wall, where they stopped. The end result was meaningless since I wasn’t using any specific set. Rather than track results, I would rate each shot, good or bad. When more than half of my shot were "good" I started to notice that some of my "bad" shots would have been considered "good" shots just a week before. When my "bad" shots started looking "good", I started setting again and was happy with the results.

Wevenout, you are so right on. Work on one thing at a time such as grip–fingers straight across the front, middle finger and thumb have the same amount of skin on each die, don’t hold the dice too tight, is back swing straight back, is the release level, etc. You get the picture. So many variables.

Keep up the good work.

Rose and Doc

Wow Sevenout! What a great response and very much appreciated. There is no question that my mental state is not good when I start throwing 7’s. I get very frustrated when that happens, for sure. I will follow your example/plan and start looking for all the good things in the throws. For now, back to the very basic fundamentals.

I’ll keep you posted.

How many shots hit the bowl?

B-Man I don’t have an answer yet. I am making a target bowl out of 3" PVC that Doctor Crapology showed us at the Memphis course. Didn’t have a chance to go to Home Depot yet so I will answer within the next few days.

I have another question about using the gripper. I am pretty sure that I was taught in Memphis to put my 3 fingers as close to the edge of the dice as possible to minimize pressure on the dice. When using the gripper, my 3 fingers are nearly half way down from the edge, nearly even with my thumb. Did I misunderstand the finger placement in Memphis or am I using the gripper incorrectly? Any thoughts or help? Dr. Crapology?

Dennis

When using the gripper place the dice in the gripper and grip the dice and the middle finger and thumb first. Then bring the first and ring fingers into place. The fingers should be straight across the dice. A good dice set to use when you practice griping is to have the 6’s facing away from you. The fingers will be on the top row of pips and you can see that they are straight. Use the mirror provided in class. Once you get the feel for the finger placement continue to do this several times.

Remember in the casino you can’t use the gripper, so another way to insure your fingers are straight across is to grip the dice without the gripper, and then place the dice in the gripper. All three fingers should touch the gripper at the same time–then you know they are even. If one or more fingers is too far down (or too high) you will notice a gap on the end of one or more fingers and the gripper. You can do both of these exercises as many time as you like.

While doing this also make sure the dice are centered on the middle finger and the thump. The first finger and ring finger should be very lightly touching the dice to act as "wings" for the throw.

Remember as Mr. Finesse states over and over you can’t practice the grip too much. Rose and I often do this while watching TV or on hold on the phone. The dice in your hands is the only time you have 100% control over the dice.

Hope that helps. Hope that someone will add to this.

Doc

Hi Doc. I understand having fingers straight across. My concern is that when using the gripper, should my fingers and my thumb all touch the gripper? If so, then my 3 fingers are further down on the dice then I remember being taught. I have been trying to keep my fingers just at the edge of the dice with my thumb about half way down. With the gripper, fingers and thumb are just about the same level. If that is the way it is supposed to be, that might explain the problems I have been having with my throw.

Trying to grab just the edge of the dice is far to advanced of a grip for someone of your experience with the dice as a matter of fact v ery few can get control over the dice with such little on the dice so, grip with the gripper and then throw, learn what pressure it takes to get the dice to pull out of your hand using the gripper, this will teach you proper feel for the game.

JawBones, I know you have had a lot of responses and some good advice but I’ll just mention this as I have had the same problem. Besides your grip your next two important elements to consider is the end of the swing and your fingers. By the end of the swing I mean is it straight and is your hand level. You can look at this by doing every step and then stop at the end of the swing with the dice in your hand and see if they are in the proper position. And at the same time see if the dice are in position, level, and parallel. You can repeat this process and actually practice getting your swing straight, hand level and dice properly positioned in your hand to move down the table in synch. If you hand tips to the left the dice hit of square and will tend to roll over to the right exposing the one and six. These off square errors seem to produce the 1 & 6 and the other good seven. For a mental break switch to the 3V and practice the swing, level and correct dice position. Switching dice set will not make much of a difference if you don’t correct the components I mentioned but it will help to clear some negativity.

Thank you Breeze. I have stopped recording rolls for a bit and have gone back to the very basics: grip first. Your suggestions for the swing is excellent and I will incorporate this into my practice.

I’ll keep you informed of my progress. Thank you to all who have contributed.

Breeze has given you some excellent advice. Try this. Go to Target or Home Depot and purchase an inexpensive mirror. The one we have is 23′ X 26". We place it at the end of the craps table or practice rig landing station and throw toward the mirror. For this drill forget your landing spot as you will be looking at your entire throw form the beginning to the back swing to the forward swing to the release. You may need to tilt the mirror at different angles so that you can see your entire arm swing.

At first we found it a little hard to not look at your landing spot since you will be watching your entire throw. Be sure to hold the release so you can be sure your release is level and your are not flicking your fingers. You will be able to see if you are coming inside on the back swing and coming straight down "the run way" on your forward swing.

This should be of help to you.

Doc and Rose

Thanks Doc and Rose. I already have the mirror and have been using it.

Brothelman

I finally have an answer to your question about how many out of 20 throws make into a cup. When I first did the exercise, the answer was 0. I have worked pretty hard on it this weekend and now I am hitting the cup about 4 or 5 times out of 20. Still not good but getting better. I have to work on the receptacle because the dice want to hop out when I get them in. That could be the receptacle I am using and, I suppose, it may that the dice are landing a bit hard.

Still working on that accuracy. I am confident that the accuracy will improve as I practice it more. I typically practice in 3 20 or 30 minutes sessions per day. I am now spending a portion of each of those sessions on attempting to land them in the cup (actually, it is a Parkay Margarine tub with a bit of foam on the bottom).

"JawBones" wrote: I have to work on the receptacle because the dice want to hop out when I get them in. That could be the receptacle I am using and, I suppose, it may that the dice are landing a bit hard.

Depending on how high the walls of the container are you could try uncooked rice. A couple of layers cut from an old terrycloth towel could also work.

Rice is a great idea Chuckman. I’ll give that a try. Thank you.

With both dice or just one?

What is a good number to get for x number of throws .Also how many throws would be good for a practice session ?
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

My opinion both dice 35 out of 50 and one dice 45 out of fifty

It’s a work in progress. Last night, out of 24 throws, I got 1 dice in 3 times and both dice once. Not a good number. Watching the dice, I think my aim is very close. I just missed the cup 4 other times hitting just in front of or just to the side but barely. Actually hit the rim with 1 die a couple of those.

I will keep on trying. It is now part of my daily practice. I spend at least 10-20 minutes on this alone.

By the way, the rice was a great idea. The dice hit and stick! Thanks for that great advice.

sIf you can not hit the same spot you are not making the same shot.

If you are not making the same shot how do you have any control?

Bman, you always cut to the meat. If you can’t hit your spot, you really do not have correct control. I have been using a Stamp to cover my marked spot on rec-station.
Look at the stamp for edge hits. Use one about 2" from back wall, and one about 6". ( I always use the barrel first, then regular dice. Always)

Shoot with passion…and focus!
DavidM

"brothelman" wrote: sIf you can not hit the same spot you are not making the same shot.

If you are not making the same shot how do you have any control?

I agree but I thought that was the purpose of practicing. I didn’t think it was so easy that I could take single class for a couple of days and be a master dice controller. As everyone has said in class and since, it requires a lot of practice. I have about 2500 recorded rolls. I suspect to get the control you speak of will take a few thousand more. I am practicing every day and working hard.

My concern, and the purpose of my original post is that my control seemed to be lessening, not improving. My SRR is going backwards. I have been given several helpful hints both in this post and via private message/email for which I am very grateful. I am back to the very basics and no longer recording rolls until I seem to be making progress.

Thank you all for your feedback and support/suggestions.

Don’t worry about it Bones. I had no statistically significant improvement between my primer and first refresher. I am certain we are not the only two in that boat.

When I took the class they told me that in the beginning my srr would shoot up ;then it would bottom out and then steadly climb back up.

My point to you is this why worry about something you have no control over yet lmao SRR.

Worry about the one thing that will tell you how you are improving.

The more dice you get in the bowl the more improvement you have made.

Hitting the same spot is where it is at.

Now you asked for help I gave you a great way to improve yourself so stop beating yourself up and continue to grow.

Until you have control over where the dice are going do not worry about srr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The better you get the closer the seven is, think about it the more control you have the slightest mistake produces a seven,
look at it like this great pitchers make a mistake with a fast ball up and bam out of the park it goes, just a small mistake why because they are in the strike zone so a mistake makes the ball very easy to hit.

All I am saying is stuff that they taught in class.

Yes I am very direct but it is easy to see what I am saying.

Just another two cents: In my daily practice, target shooting has become a focus for me as well. For too long, I was focusing on results rather than trying to control where the dice were going. This resulted in me somehow trying to think the seven away and putting way to much pressure on myself. Now I place the dice right where I want them and let go of the outcome and I am doing much better. Having realistic expectations will come with being humbled a couple of times. Oh well.

Again, thanks Chuckman, B-Man and Doughboy. All good points and I can definitely see what you are saying.

Now, off to the practice rig for some target practice!

"JawBones" wrote:

Now, off to the practice rig for some target practice!

A quick learner. You will be fine 🙂

OK, I will get into this discussion:

1. BMan said somethings that you need to remember …. Everyone at the beginning will always take 5 steps forward and then 4 steps backward and then half steps forward. What I mean by this is that in any new physical learning you will see improvement immediately and then that improvement will deteriorate, and the improvement will be slow from that point forward. So what you are experiencing is typical for almost everyone so don’t let it worry you

2. Not sure if you stated this somewhere in the 5 pages of this thread, but when you checked your SRR early on did you have 5000 tosses? No need to answer, but here it is …. If you put in 5000 tosses and your SRR was good and then the next 5000 tosses your SRR went down dramatically, then something is wrong with your grip or mechanics. If you didn’t have those 5000 tosses and you checked your SRR at lets say at 1000 tosses, then forget this talk about a drop in SRR. Why ….. because you can’t get any good statistics on anything unless you have at least 5000 attempts. Hope you understand what I mean by what I wrote.

Some people will put in 500 throws and say their SRR is 9 … well it isn’t

3. Gripper question…. answered well in this thread, you are not experienced enough to put your fingers too high on the dice. Use the gripper as it is made with your fingers and thumb touching.

4. Steven as I recall said this …. Take some time off. Get your head back together. Visualize your throw without throwing the dice. Even take a week off!

5. The Doc’s bowl is great! BMan I think said this, forget the SRR and just those dice to land more consistently in the bowl. As you improve on this, your mental state will improve because you are seeing something positive and also if you can’t land the dice at the same place each throw you are not going to get better. You need to be a target shooter as well. BTW, I love the idea of rice in a bowl … I never thought of that !

6. Keeping with the thought above, stop checking your SRR and do something different in practice to get your confidence up as you improve. Things like shooting into the bowl, putting tooth picks between your fingers and trying to keep them there as you grip the dice and throw them, play a game with chips and give yourself 3 or 4 turns with the dice and see if you are making some money. There are other practice routines on this forum as well. The thing is that you need to possibly change some of your practice.

7. Finally, DO NOT take the video elite before you have taken at least 1 refresher course. The things that he video elite will show will be way too many problems.

Dominator

Thank you Dom. Glad to see you back. I have taken all the advice offered in this thread to heart. My daily practice is now focused on hitting the bowl with more consistency and using the gripper to get the feel locked in.

I was recording my SRR when I hit 2000 recorded rolls. Not doing it anymore.

Well Jawbones there isn’t much I could add to what Goddess or Dom has said. I’ve been at this for 4 years as of this September and I have had some stretches where I thought there was no way I was ever going to be able to get this. There were times I thought I had it down only to get destroyed the next session. I think that if I were to identify a turning point for me it was after I took the video analysis class followed by the advanced class. These two classes really taught me a lot about what makes the dice do what they do and how to coach my own shot based on what I am seeing in the dice. This thing we do is definitely a journey with all the ups and downs implied by that metaphor. Dom states that "dice control is 80% mental". Keeping a positive attitude in the face of difficulty will go a long way towards enabling us to reach the goals we have while maintaining our sanity <G> and our bankroll. I survived a stroke in 2012 that left my left side paralyzed. I participate in a stroke survivor support group and I came up with a saying that I think is applicable to this activity as well. See my signature below. Keep at it and it will come.

Thanks Butcher for your words of support. I wish you well in your recovery.