Maximizing the profit when you are fortunate to at the table for a 60 roll hand is one of the things GTC covers in our new revises format. We spend a lot of time on betting properly. Professor you will understand this completely when you attend the Refresher course in AC this September.

it is a wonderful thing when this happens.

Lucky you, to be at the table when this happened. Way to go John.

How you press is very much an individual decision. Once you get into a big roll like this, Doc and Rose like to do a press and take. When one presses it can be done in one of several ways. First you can press press 100% of your win on the number hit. Take the next win on most any number and press the next. Continue the press and take routine until the roll is over.

Doc has several ways of pressing depending on how he feels at the time.

I may press 50% of my win on the number just hit and put the other 50% in the chip rail. I do this on every payday. This way I am always putting something in the chip rail with every payday as well exposing more money for larger wins. A second way is to press the 2 "sister numbers" 50% of the win for a 100% press of the win. For example if the 6 is hit for a pay day, I will press the 6 & 8 each 1/2 of the win. I then put the next pay day in the chip rail. I do this because I use the hard way set, which is not number specific, and I hit a lot of different box numbers. I do the same for the 5 and 9 as well as the 4 and 10. It works for old Doc.

Bottom line do what is comfortable for you. Doc finds is hard to press all of the win to one number. In practice yesterday I had a very nice 26 roll and had a win of $900. Remember I start pretty low on 3 numbers until I get 3 paydays before I press anything with very small presses ($10 or $15) until I have 8 hits. Then some sort of press and take from that point forward. An example of using the Big Skinny.

Here is a question. You have all the numbers covered through the come line (several with place or buy bets as well), I make my point and then have a come out 7. The come bets come down. How do you go back up on the box numbers? Doc kinda starts all over with small bets to see how my (or another GTC player) throw looks. The come out 7 may be an indication of what will happen in the near future. Once the roll gets going again and looking good, I will up my bets.

A few years ago I has in an excellent roll. At about roll 35, I made my point followed by a come out 7. I had been at the table for over 2 1/2 hours and was somewhat exhausted and my throw looked—let’s say less than perfect. I got back about about $600 in odds with several hundred dollars in place bets still on the table. I took the place bets down and passed the dice. Several players at the table were not happy with my decision but I needed a break (read nap). I took close to $1000 off the table, plus all of the paydays I had rolled prior to the come out 7. The casino got nothing. That my friend is what Goldfinger calls SWEET.

Just a few comments from the peanut gallery.

As Mr. Finesse said, the refresher will course will be a great help to you. Look forward to seeing you in September.

Rose and Doc

This is too complicated to explain in a post. I am happy to see it is covered in detail in class because that is the type of time that is needed to get this right. But I do want to say a few words about attitude that apply in general. I was concerned about several comments you made in your post regarding attitude. I have listed them below and will comment on them as listed.

"professor" wrote:
A.)Luckily we were up money to start due to my roll before JohnC1 got going. Let’s not forget this was the "Big Boy" $25 table which is relatively new to us. So we had some money to put out there when it was his turn.
B.) So i am thinking how many 6’s and 8’s can he throw because he was throwing a lot, how many points could he make and he was making a lot.
C.) but I was always afraid of the "you know what" that I did not do full presses but only partial presses.
D.) The problem is one is half way into this kind of a roll before you realize how long it is and you are waiting for the shoe to fall. I was constantly saying how many of such and such could he roll and then he did it.
E.) If he did throw the "you know what" I had a lot of money on the table but I guess that has to be if you want to make money on such a roll.

A.) You should always have money to put out there regardless of whether you are ahead or behind on the session. If you need to be ahead to put money out your 401G is too small for the table you are playing on and you should not be playing there.
B.) This is negative thinking that does not belong at the table. I would be hoping he could throw as many as he has already thrown 10 more times.
C.) You should be afraid of the opposite. If I do not do full presses, I will be leaving money in the casino’s bank instead of my rails.
D.) You should never be worried about the shoe falling. Once again, you are thinking negatively.
E.) I am more annoyed with myself when I do not leave a sizeable sum of money on the table.

On a couple of occasions when we drew a crowd with a big roll and the dealer swept the chips off the table at the end of the roll, I overheard a bystander say, "Look at how much money he left on the table". I laugh inside to myself every time I hear that because they are looking at the wrong place. They should be looking at how much is in the rails instead.

I always have a game plan in mind when I approach a table. I know exactly how much I am going to bet and how I am going to increase my bets (press or spread) depending on how much profit I have on that specific roll and what numbers the shooter is hitting on that specific roll. After that it is automatic, no thinking involved at all. I have done my homework with pencil and paper (actually with computer and excel) in advance numerous times. I know exactly what type of profit I can expect to make with different types of betting patterns. I choose a pattern that is suitable to my tolerance for risk and my 401G. Once the rules are established I must follow them because that is my plan. There is no thinking, second guessing, worrying about when the roll might end, etc. That is the attitude one needs at the tables but it all begins with practice at home. I practice my betting as much as I practice my throwing, possibly more because betting is all mental and I don’t want any mental thoughts interfering with my plan. I want to make it automatic so I do not have to think about what I am doing when it comes to the betting.

In conclusion you need to reread an article I wrote because it definitely applies to your question.

Click Here to read: Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

Along the lines of Skinny’s reply to your question–a friend (not a GTC person) once told me if you don’t lose your biggest bet you are not betting correctly.

My thoughts.

I agree with Skinny and his reasoning.

What were the max odds on this game? On a $25 table, I would have started just as you did. I would have gone at least $75 in odds on the passline and a $30 six and eight. After 4 wins I would have begun a press routine such as this. When the 6 or 8 hit, I would have pressed that number to 60. The next hit would have gone to 90. After that I would collect and press to 180. Then collect and press to 300. After that collect and full press to table max. I would take the passline bet to max odds. I would have made a come bet, after I was up substantially, with full odds. If the come bet went a 6 or 8 I would have left the place bet up and had the come bet working. About roll 30 I would have a come bet with full odds on every roll. I might have bought the 4 and 10 depending on how his dice looked and the repeating pattern of those numbers. Had a come bet travelled to those numbers I would have taken down the place bet.

I also have the same starting point for each hand. So for the 2nd 60 roll hand I would have started with the same bet sequence, but I would have been more aggressive in my presses and spreading to come bets.

Nice post. Wish I had been there.

NFF

Skinny,, Thank you for your response. I want to go over it point by point for i agree with you on some but disagrre on others.

A) I had over $2000 in my pocket at this time so I did not "need" the money from my first roll. My point , as unclear as it was,is I was using "their" money to start John’s session. I uderstand the concept of 401G and I understand I may have been over my head playing that table however, John and I have found this table to be the best one in the place where our shot works. Why play at a 5 or 10 dollar table where you lose money. We have won more times than lost on this table so I knew I needed more money to play on it thus $2000. Maybe from a GTC perspective that is not enough and if it isn’t I would like to know what the formula is to determine how much to bring on various demomination tables. This was the point of me writing to learn these nuiances that I have not read about or been told.

B) I guess personality comes into play here. When I am at a table and whether it is a GTC player or aa CFer is throwing alot of numbers I always think how many can he throw of a certain number so I can make an intelligent bet. In my years at this I have found that most players on a good roll (20-25)will shot 6-7 6’s and same with the eights depending on level of expertise. So when John went beyond that in the first 30 shots my thinking was how many can he shoot so I could take advantage of it. He was already way beyond my self imposed norm as wrong as it may be. It was a me thing based on thousands of shots watched and made by me. So again my point was to learn from someone like you. when does one start doing full presses and the like. Ask John, I have no fear in betting and most times over bet having complete confidence in the GTC thrower. So "negative thinking" I do not agree, I am actually too much the other way.

C) I agree with you whole heartedly that I should not be thinking in that direction. And as fearless as I think I am I just think it is natural to fear it. It is the only thing will stop the throw. Again it is not on my mind 100% of the time but it has to come out sooner or later so how does one do intelligent betting based on the number of throws being made. When does one start full presses rather than up one unit and such. From a theoretical point of view the longer the throw the more likely it will come out. We are not machines we are human and make mistakes that cause the Voldemort to come out. And lastly here, I understand the idea of not worrying about how much is being left on the table as I said in my write up and trust me I had a lot up there but again it is a me thing where I want to know if there is a way to avoid leaving it up there by some smart betting. Again and again I just wanted to see if there are betting strategies to help in long rolls which I am sure Skinny you could write a book about.

D) You are completely correct. I should get that idea out of my head as natural as I think it is for it may be holding back and not capitalizing on the roll.

Thank you for your comments and help yo are a wonderful teacher. Professor.

I am glad you found it helpful. I wrote it as much to assist others as I did for you. If some of the points did not apply to your attitude they might be useful to others who could identify with what I was saying.

I do not know how to win a lot of money without having a large amount of money on the table. I guess there are rare situations where you can sense a roll is going to end as Doc mentioned in his post and take down your wagers accordingly. But I am not prescient so I don’t think those situations exist as often as we think.

If Bill Gates was my Dad and I had unlimited access to his money, then I would have NO FEAR

I play so small with low $$$ bets, that I barely made anything on my 75-roll — thank goodness, I always play the max fire bet; and, the Princess does the betting, so it goes where she takes it

I seem to be more aggressive on a CF-er, that’s after they get past my 3 box-count rule — maybe because I call a good roll from a CF-er as a gift from God

I am still waiting to make it big on a cfer with my one bet on the 6 or 8 after he rolls it 3 times to start presses .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Realize one thing it is not there money when it is in your pocket, or in your rack.

I think Skinny is right on, as he often is. For my own part, I know what I’m going to do at every session. The only thing that might change is the amount of the unit bet. But, if you have a no-need-to-think method you use, you’ll max into the big rolls. Here’s an example of what I would do with a $60 unit bet ( on my own roll…I wouldn’t jump on another roller necessarily for a large unit bet ). My personal preference is to get all the box numbers covered with leftovers from 6 and 8 hits. My theory is that I want to be able to press up the numbers that are hitting, since it is not always 6 and 8 even though they are the easiest to hit…mathematically. I’ll start with $5 on the Passline and if its not a 6 or 8, I’ll back with max odds and place 6 and 8 for $60. First hit on 6 or 8 and $50 goes to the rack and $20 goes to an open number. So on until all the numbers have at least $20 in play. When a $20 hits, it goes up to $50 and things go from there. Typically, in a long roll, you’ll hit a lot of 6s and 8s, so here’s what can and does happened. We’ll use the 6 as an example of a hot number. Before doing this, I’ve got all the box numbers covered doing the rack $50 and place $20 strategy. Thereafter, on the 6 example:

Hit #1 – Rack the $70 so you’ve at least got a minimal win;
Hit #2 ( paid $70) – Press to $120 – $10 goes in the rack
Hit #3 – (paid $140) Press to $180 – $80 goes in the rack
Hit #4 – (paid $210) Press to $240 – $150 goes in the rack;
Hit #5 – (paid $280) Press to $300 – $220 goes in the rack;
Hit #6 – (paid $350) Hold the press $350 goes in the rack –
You are now up $810 and, believe me this progression can easily get to this point with 6 & 8, sometimes even on a 20 roll hand.
Hit #7 – (paid $350) Press to $600 $50 goes in the rack
Hit #8 – paid $700 $700 goes in the rack ( now you’ve made $1500 +)
Hit #9 – paid $700 Press to $1200 $200 goes in the rack
If you get this far, you can see what can happen. Not real likely, and I have yet to do it up to where I"ve got a $1200 number, but I’ve just started using this progression, and there have been numerous times in practice where I’ve gotten as many as 10 hits on a six or an eight. You got to be able to do it blindfolded though, and without thinking about whether or not to take some off the table because the black bitch is lurking. Like Skinny said, assume she ain’t gonna show! I know Griz has seen something like this work, cause he was there. And, there was a guy just down the rail on that roll who had gotten the 6 and 8 up to $3000 each. He tipped me in hundreds afterward. Of course, that is a story about a good roll. Believe me, the quick 7 outs happen too. Its just all part of the game. Bottom line is you never know when the big roll is coming or how long its going to last. Its like surfing. Catch the next wave and ride it like hell! And…if you aren’t paddling like hell when that swell starts, you’ll miss it.

Keep On Rollin’

Alamo

Skinny What do you think about doing a up a unite till the 5th hit or till you have 60.00 on the 6 or 8 then press and pull from then on ?
I think that I need to decide what I want to do the next time I go to a casino .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

"Finisher" wrote: Skinny What do you think about doing a up a unit till the 5th hit or till you have 60.00 on the 6 or 8 then press and pull from then on ?
I think that I need to decide what I want to do the next time I go to a casino .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

I think you should read Stickman’s 3 articles in the following link and then decide what you want to do.

http://www.goldentouchcasino.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8092&p=22189#p22189

OK…I took a look at Stickman’s articles. I have tried all of the methods in some form or another.

I one basic question:

Comparing Stickman’s various charts, you see that things start getting interesting once numbers have repeated half a dozen times or so. What does the board think about doing the ‘up a unit’ press for perhaps 5 or 6 hits ( that usually means you’re shoveling some pretty good $ into the rack ) and then arbitrarily just changing your unit size. So, in other words, you start with $12 on the 6/8 as an example. 5 hits later, you’re up to where your bet size is $60. What about, at that point, just mentally saying, "okay, now my unit size is $30 or even $60 or something less", but a manageable multiple for 6 and 8. So, for example in the chart, when the $60 bet hits, you say ‘make it look like $90’ and thereafter press at $30 per hit? I have no way of doing the math the way Stickman does, but this kind of plays off of Skinny’s idea of boosting the come bets in the Big Skinny once you’ve had 5 – 7 hits on the numbers.

Another question arises from my point here. I guess you just add a white chip to your count stack in the rack every time a number hits, so you know when to increase to your new ‘higher’ unit.

I guess I’m still maybe going to the same place, but I’m trying to get to a point where the 11th or 12th hit on a number using ‘up a unit’ would be equal to the press and pull (that has a higher return ). Only thing is, I can’t visualize how my suggestion works, using the box comparison.

Keep On Rollin’

Alamo

You said what I was getting at .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Here are the numbers for your progression, switching to $30 unit after 5 hits. Compare it to Stickman’s charts for different progressions and see which one you like best.

Your determination should be based on your tolerance for risk, ie. how much you want to risk early or late to increase your opportunity for monetary gain as well as how many hits you can realistically expect given your abilities.

[pre]Hit# Bet Win Total
1 12 2 2
2 24 16 18
3 36 30 48
4 48 44 92
5 60 58 150
6 90 75 225
7 120 110 335
8 150 145 480
9 180 180 660
10 210 215 875
11 240 250 1125
12 270 285 1410
13 300 320 1730[/pre]

I would be happy with hit number 6 since my bye in is less .
So will try it out in practice then will give it a try in casino at least one time . 🙂 🙂
Just need to up my first bet a bit.
I miss Clll charts .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂