Professor I’ll give this a try. Practice rigs and casino tables all differ in a lot of different ways. Length, height of the side rails, width of the side rail. type of table covering, material the table surface is constructed from and how the table surfaces are designed make all of the tables different in some degree.

Then there is you, properly centering your fingers on the dice, correctly distributing the grip pressure evenly over the dice, not holding the dice too tightly, concentrating, visualizing, focusing, aiming, having the proper back swing, release and follow through.

Briefly what I have learned is that I can’t do anything about playing conditions of the tables accept change the height of the arc of my throw and the velocity. Done deal it’s either a screwy table or it’s me. I don’t play on screwy tables.

What can happen and I think it happens to me, has to do with muscle memory in that you get so tuned into your practice rig that you have a hard time making the adjustments that have to be made to play on a real casino table which are height of the arc and velocity but it may include many of the table variables I listed above. I have decided that I can only do so much so I stick to the basics, height and velocity and being honest about my throw. If the table isn’t crazy bouncy it’s me. And the casino may not be the place to work on correcting my throw. That is why I have begun to score my practice rolls based on what the dice are doing on my practice rig. I can’t blame the table for the dice splitting, or one releasing sooner than the other or one coming off the back wall and rolling way from the other sitting close to the wall, etc.
Stick to the basics and be honest about your throw, practice and remember your practice rig is not the casino table you are playing on.
The Breeze

Thank you Breeze for answering this screwy question. What you said at the end is what I said in the beginning which was, in practice sessions at home, stick to the fundamentals without caring for the outcome of on the dice. Keep the dice together, stop them from splitting and so on, that is very sound advice but once at the casino there is where I differ with you. If there are bouncy table conditions I agree run like the wind from them. But you also said, if it is YOU, leave the casino. If the human body was a static entity I agree, leave. However the human body is not static but is forever changing and probably not the same one minute to the next let alone one casino night to another. If you didn’t have enough water that day, not enough calcium, or magnesium levels are low, all of which effect muscle control, leaving the casino is a mistake. What one can do is try something new or make a change more drastic or different than just height and velocity. That is, play to the condition your body is in. Look for what will work on that specific day and time with your muscles in whatever condition they are in. Have you ever practiced for let’s say half hour do great and then go back an hour later trying to do the same thing and does not work. What changed other than body conditions. Your solution to this is to stop practice and try again later is my guess. My solution is to try a different thing to have another good practice. I do not think velocity and height are the only variables to change. How about position of dice in relation to the body, ahead of it, behind it, even with it. How about on your toes or flat footed, how about tilting the dice one way or the other. How about wrist movement at the end of the shot or cocking your hand forward or backward. One of these could work based on your body functions, mainly your muscles, at that time. I think there is a physiology to this game that no one is addressing.Now to try all of these is ridicuolus at one session, but, before I leave I would surley try some of these to be sure it isn’t going to happen that night. Your normal shot is the benchmark but when that doesn’t work then have the night be a practice session for new things (bankroll being taken into account). There is so much more I want to say but this enough for now. I really want to thank you for writing such a lenghty response. It was very clear and articulate. You are a gentleman and a scholar. Professor

Hopefully I can add something to this discussion without sounding like a jerk. That is certainly not my intent.

You talk about maybe moving the dice closer or further from your body or tilting the dice to various degrees, etc. I can understand making a slight change at a casino table to change the revs or the landing zone slightly, arc or velocity as an adjustment if needed. I would probably try to make one adjustment if I thought it would help my dice outcomes but not a bunch of things. I think unless you are a very advanced tosser (and by the way I do not consider myself an advanced DI) then the proper answer is to walk away if your dice are not behaving well and live to fight another day.

I guess my question for you would be, have you done these things one thing at a time in your practice sessions? As an example, have you moved your dice farther from your body on purpose in practice while keeping everything else just as you would normally do it? If so, have you recorded what change this made in what your dice did when they hit the table? Have you done it enough times so you know what is happening consistently when you make that change?

After you have practiced enough and recorded enough what each change does to your dice, only then can you know what effect a specific thing might have in the casino and only then will an adjustment do any good.

Personally, I have tried to do this kind of thing in practice and I still struggle everyday in practice to analyze my dice properly and figure out how to be more consistent in my toss.

I do agree that we are not robots and that physically we will have some variations on a day to day basis. I also think that if you are playing on a table you have never played before it does take a couple of times with the dice and low betting to figure out what is best for you. That being said, casino practice can get very expensive if you don’t have a clear idea of what to do with your toss mechanics to make the changes you see that need to be made. I think that just searching through a bunch of random things at the table until something seems to work is just random things and not productive or lucrative in the end.

Just some food for thought!

Dear professor can you hit both dice into a bowl about four inches around 60% of the time?

You must have fundamentals first before trying anything else, why?

If you are not consistent with your best shot you are random, and if you can not be consistent with your best shot how can you even be close with a different shot, now we have an even more random shot.

Random is as random does all over the table.

Timmer has posted a subject titled "how to make money without setting the dice." Simply put, he is telling us not to worry about the number results, but how the dice react as they hit the table, back wall and finally stop. This will tell you a lot about what is wrong with your throw. A pair of dice without pips is an excellent way to observe the reactions of the dice without worrying about the number result. You can also use 2 dice of different colors (or mark one with a felt pen) so you can see if they cross after hitting the table or back wall.

From time to time put the chips away, and simply worry how the dice react. Always work on one thing at a time–the grip is paramount, back swing, forward swing, release, etc. You can always get the chips out another day or at a later time and practice your betting.

Remember always practice the basics. The analogy I like to give is how my high school basketball coach always made us take shots of all types from different places on court as a warm up and they we did all kinds of offensive and defensive drills–this could sometimes take 45 minutes to an hour every day. Old Doc hated these drills. I will be honest in saying that the 7 players who played a lot our senior year were not super athletes by any stretch, but we were so well drilled in the basics that we managed to come in 2nd in state. Example–no one on our team could dunk the ball and a long shot was out of the question—thank goodness there was not a 3 point shot back then.

I think everyone gets what I am trying to say.

Look forward to the Tunica class. Hope to see everyone there.

Alligator Rose and Doc

getagrip thank so much for your input. Yes I have tried these but not all at once. Just one at a time to see if there is any improvement for that day. This is what think everyone is not understanding. I am not talking about permanent changes but changes that will turn the tide for that specific day at that specific time. Let’s say your normal number of rotations is 3 before hitting the table but today it is 4 due tenseness in your body you can not detect or some emotional thing has you reved up. Well changing the arc or velocity to me is asking for trouble when just 1/2 step forward will cut down on the rotation since the dice will get there sooner. Again the physiology of the body at that specific time is such the your normal throw is not working. To me the challenge is finding what will work for that day if I am convinced that my regular throw is not working and it is not due to bouncy or unfavorable table conditions. I could give you an example of what I am talking about that just happened yesterday but I don’t think you would believe me. Professor

Brothelman, yes I can hit a bowl 60% or more with both dice. I said right off the rip that your practice sessions at home should be on the fundamentals that is a major priority. But you know as well as i do that one can practice for hours and hours and go to the casino and have terrible night. Why keep throwing the same way for that night if you are getting the same results. We all think our next roll is going to be the long one, we have to think like that. But sometimes it just doesn’t happen so…… let’s say you change only the arc and velocity or landing spot as was suggested by a fellow GTcer and it still does not help , do you go home? I don’t. I will try one or two more drastic changes. There is something that is going on in your body at that time that is not allowing you to do what you want it to (except for just plain bad luck). So why not find the way to use your physiology to your advantage rather than disadvantage. Do something out of the box for one shot . There IS a right way for that night, it is matter of finding it, obviously, with some kind of controlled betting, if only a passline to start. Professor P.S. I just love this discussion.