If I understand your question the "Underhanded" you’re referring to would have the palm facing the target like an underhanded pitch delivered in Softball. If that is the premise of your question I see no way to get the proper backspin on the Dice. There would be forward spin which would tend to slam the cubes into the back wall rather than kissing it.

Although that doesn’t answer your question about sanctioned or preferred underhanded shot. And I don’t have an answer to that.

But on further "Constipation" of the question. I have toyed with shooting from SR using my right arm. I press my right hip into the rail leaning out and throwing with my hand in the correct orientation with the back of the hand leading, fingers and dice trailing.

ok, since you brought this up, let’s further "constipate" the question for sake of debate. What is less destructive to the motion and purpose of the dice than a underhanded toss (palm up). With the traditional shot you are asking the dice to hit the table, put on the brakes, change direction (move forward), then hit the wall and still stay on axis. All of those actions or reactions can cause so many things to go wrong resulting in a bad situation. With the underhanded throw the dice hit the wall only AS HARD AS YOU WANT THEM TO, not necessarily slamming into the wall, since you are controlling that part. However, they are still moving in a forward direction when they hit, nothing to disrupt the purpose of the dice which is to stay on axis. Now I am not espousing to use this method but I certainly wouldn’t discount it only because there is no backspin to the toss since to me that is the advantage. Please, above all, take all of this in the spirit of debate and construction conversation. Professor

This topic has been brought up many times in the past. One of the things that most people who want to throw the dice underhanded get to this point because of inconsistencies with their 3 fingered back-hand throw.

Why do they have these problems with the throw GTC teaches and which has been established scientifically buy Sharpshooter, who happens to be the man I was taught by. we know this throwing technique will give us the optimum distance when we execute a true 45 degree angle (trajectory) with the softest landing with the correct backspin. Now most of the problems I see people have are caused by a few things. Improper grip, throwing to fast, backswing problems and practice equipment that is not set up correctly or not to the correct measurements that will replicate a true casino craps table.

It is easier to try and invent another toss than work on perfecting the ultimate toss which is a backhanded toss.

Also nothing takes the place of investing in more than just a Primer Class. GTC students who achieve the best success have invested in multiple classes, meaning one or two primers, 2 or 3 refreshers and some the advanced class and some of those will take a tune up and a video elite along their journey.

My opinion is that those who want to toss the dice underhanded will never achieve their maximum potential and I personally will never bet on them. I will consider them nothing more than a Chicken Feeder,

I was in the midst of a long well reasoned response and lost it to the "ether". I’ll just say it’s hard to perfect the throws regardless of how you want to do them, three finger, tong, one finger or any of the other things folks have tired. But, remember one thing … You cannot control the flight of the dice once they’ve left you. You can only attempt to influence their behavior while they are in your hand.

And I whole heatedly agree with Mr. F when he writes

It is easier to try and invent another toss than work on perfecting the ultimate toss which is a backhanded toss.

Point well taken. Don’t you just love the creativity that debate brings out. I guess that is just the teacher in me. One thing you should know is that I may have thrown underhand 4 single times in the past two years as a last resort to a bad night. When I did the people with me were not disappointed. I guess this is a touchy subject for some so it is time to drop it. It is a good thing however that Copernicus went against the accepted norm or we would still believe the earth is the center of the solar system.

Hi Professor,

It sounds like you are both curious and think it might be possible to develop a controlled underhand throw based on your good experience the 4 times you tried it. I know you take an analytical and disciplined approach to your learning so I thought it might be helpful to share my observations.

A few of us who are good bowlers and instructors as well played around with the underhand shot one day after we finished setting up the room for an upcoming class. We know how to control our arm from our bowling skill so we wanted to see if it could translate to the underhand shot.

I found it more difficult to keep the dice on axis after they left my fingers than with the GTC backhand toss. They don’t seem to roll off the fingers as easily underhand as they do backhand. The motion underhand does not impart a natural spin on the dice as one is able to obtain with a backhand toss.

I realize with practice it may be possible to get better. But I am not talking about that. I believe the physics of the motion, one’s body position and grip make it more difficult and less optimal.

The dice are also rolling with a forward motion rather than a backward one. Thus there is no braking action due to the backspin imparted with the backhand toss. That makes it harder to get the dice to die at the back wall. One can only control the energy with which the dice hit the wall with the speed of your arm swing. That makes it a lot harder to get them to hit the back wall gently. A slight mistake translates into a shot that can come up short or slam off the wall.

On the positive side it was easier to throw the dice from the right side with the underhand throw vs. the backhand throw. Your body is in a more natural position and the arm swing is less constricted. This alone is not enough to overcome the disadvantages I see with the grip, lack of braking action and difficulty with perfecting an underhand toss. That is not to say one can not develop an underhand toss. I saw that it may be possible to have an underhand toss that could have some element of control. Even though I have the skill and knowledge to develop such an ability I would not due so. I don’t think it is possible to develop one that can be as repeatable and reliable as a backhand toss. It comes down to what Mr. Finesse said about achieving one’s maximum potential. It is difficult enough to overcome the advantage the casino has over a craps player. It makes no sense to me to play anything other than the strongest possible game one is capable of developing. I believe the backhand swing taught by GTC is far superior to an underhand swing.

Hope this helps and you can envision what I am saying from your personal experience.

"LouisR" wrote: Point well taken. When I did the people with me were not disappointed. I guess this is a touchy subject for some so it is time to drop it. It is a good thing however that Copernicus went against the accepted norm or we would still believe the earth is the center of the solar system.

Even a squirrel finds an acorn every now and then. pat DiMarco’s 4.5 hour roll was the first time or second time she ever threw the dice.

Your question is a good one, and the answers that Mr F and Skinny gave are all right on, so I will not elaborate on them. You are right, it is a good thing that Copernicus went against the accepted norm, and he was proven right. based on the physics of this throw, the underhand throw is not right. When physics changes then GTC will look at what we teach and possibly change.

All good discussion is good and it does lead to a better understanding.

Dominator

Now that is what I am talking about. Just good, honest, healthy debate over this issue. I have never had any intention of reccommending anyone to exclusively go to an underhand throw. As I said I have only used it when nothing else was working and we all know those sessions. However when I did use it I was with GTC players who made a lot of money off of it. I would like to thank Skinny for his impartial imput into this issue for I have noticed exactly what he was pointing out, which is the reason I do not use it that much any more. I too was a bowler Skinny, 40 years as matter of fact and not bad for the different conditions they had back then, so the motion was very natural to me. So when I was trying to figure a way to beat bouncy tables I thought a low underhand shot might do it landing the dice far from the wall and letting them use their natural forward moton take them to the back wall. I found that to be harder than I thought so I went to a higher arc on "normal" tables and more times than not I did more than ok. But then I got away from it totally for about a year and a half and use it now very sparingly if at all. Your imput as I would have expected was in the spirit of good debate and stimulating discussion. You took the question or issue and a made great presentation exposing both the pros and cons. I just threw it out there for thoughts from people who may have used it and I got jumped like I was a parriah or some sort of monster. I have always been open to new ideas and never shut out creative ways to improve on an accepted method and then to pass it on to anyone who wants to listen. Thank you to Mr. Finesse and Dominator for their incites also. I never expected to get such powerhouses like Skinny, Dom and Mr. Finesse involved in this. I guess this topic is hotter than I thought. Professor

You forgot, (although you did mention him) that Skinny is one of our powerhouses as well! 😀

Dominator

Allow me to get my foot in the door. I believe the following was Professor’s last sentence.
" I never expected to get such powerhouses like Skinny, Dom and Mr. Finesse involved in this. I guess this topic is hotter than I thought. Professor"

Isn’t life grand?

Catch you later!

Can’t really add much. BUT the thing that always confuses me I will run into a student who took the primer 6 months to 1 year prior to our running into each other, and he will be using a 2 finger grip or some other grip not taught in class. When asked why he uses the 2 finger grip the response is "I seem to do better. No records to back this up but he probably won one time in the past with pure luck and he is looking for the Holy Grail which doesn’t exist in craps if you don’t follow what is taught. Secondly, when asked if he plans to take a refresher, tune up, or elite video, the answer is always "I don’t want to spend the money." Mind you this same former student buys in for $500 three or 4 times a day for 3 days exposing some $5000 to $6000 where is loses most of it. Cost of any of the 3 above items from GTC is a bargain and an investment for the rest of his craps life.

Crazy isn’t it.

Doc and Alligator Rose

Skinny always there . Mr Finese just came back .Dom reads ALL and talks little but does it right .Don’t forget about Bman when it comes to the 20 commandments .
GTC has changed in the last few years for the better I think as far as the instructors go with posting .
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂

Dr It is strange that you brought that up about the two finger grip .I just went back to practicing it again . I was using it before I took the class and it took me almost 2 days during class to stop . I then have not used it since but have steadily gotten less rolls in practice with more and more 3/4 and 2/5 coming up .
So went back to the 2 finger just to see what it would do . The first roll was not good but the second roll was in the 20s .
When I took the class I just hated it when the instructors said that was a good 7 .Not telling me how I could get rid or change it to a good BOX number .O well life goes on and hope it gets better for all of us .
I have had pain in my wrist for the past 12 years and am finally getting a Doc. to look at the MRI . Maybe that will tell me a little about what is going on with it .
I thought that I heard some one say the less touching the dice the better .
I wonder what kind of grip Pat used on her long roll ? Just a thought .
It has been a long time since I have played real craps . But will use the 3 finger grip when I do .
Are you a mind reader ?????
Good Rolling. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Pat did not use a grip when she had her roll. It was only her second time playing craps. She picked up the dice, shook them in her hand and threw them down the table.

She did not even know how to bet. Her friend John, talked her into playing and he told her what bets to make. For the most part all she had was a pass line wager with some small odds. As the roll extended he talked her into some additional bets. But she did not have very much on the table nor did she take much from the casino.

Thank you Wow Man. I knew I included Skinny in the list of powerhouses, how could I not. I hope Skinny did not think I left him out. Professor

I too have been curious about the underhand, mainly to have another tool and I want to learn to shoot from the right. I finally saw a guy using the UH this weekend from SR1 and he did very well, consistent rolls 12-15 each time, hitting inside numbers. Like Skinny said is a bowling motion, 3 finger grip, low about 4 -6" above the table, he could gently rolly up to the backwall, catch the smooth part under the pyramids and stop. Fun to watch, I bet it would be tuff to learn. Spoke with him latter, said an ex GTC instructor worked with him to get it down, did not recognize the name.

MarkM3 that was very brave of you to write your reply considering all of the flack I got. A couple of years ago I too saw someone using it at the very same time I heard of it. Being a bowler it was a natural motion for me. At that time I only used it when the SL shot was not working, as you said, a backup toss. Did ok with it as some GTC players know but never used it a lot and eventually stopped using it at all since the SL shot was doing fine. That was about a year and half-two years ago, and only brought it up now just to get the opinions and input from the thousands of GTC players out there. Maybe more were using it than I thought. Obviosly not. Two weeks ago I got so frustrated with my traditional throw I used it again after so long and did great, 29 roll. So is it a good toss, not sure. I agree with Skinny that more things can go wrong than right so will i ever use it again who knows, but if you do, let me know. Professor

Professor I did not want you to think I was singling you out with my response, I just know that the underhand throw will never be as effective as the preferred GTC toss from personal experience.

When I started to play craps seriously I did a lot of experimentation and underhanded worked the best for me ( I also was a pretty good bowler) but my results were very inconsistent. I read everything I could about craps and then one day I found the PARR Class(which is not in business any longer). This program was developed by Sharpshooter and he was who taught Dom, myself and the rest of the original partners. since then we have not been an advocate of the underhand throw simply because it is not as good as what we teach.

I am sorry if you think I offended you, nothing personal .

Also this has turned out to be a great thread and thanks for that.

Thank you Mr. Finesse for your reply. I thought you were angry at me for bringing up the topic. You are the last person I would want to be angry with we me since you were the the person who got me involed with the GTC, my mentor. I take all of your opinions and advice to heart and very seriously, especially practice. I still abide by what you said, practice at least an hour a day. The reason I was going to the right side at all was my desire to shoot when we had our group shoots at Foxwoods. The left side was always overloaded so I decided to try a right side shot so I could shoot either side. Therefore I experimented with various types, underhand being one of them. I do not use it often at all just wanted to know if anyone did and had any incites into it. I will be taking the new Sept. class for I think some bad things have crept into my SL shot. Hope to see you there. Professor

A friend of ours uses an underhand/sideways throw…..

We ONLY bet ONE number on her AFTER she passes our count (similar to the 5-count)

She hardly ever gets past 5 rolls

We either win $2 or lose $12 (as a team — The Princess & I)

She has hit ONE 5-point fire bet in 3 years

Not much better than a CF-er — and, the worse thing is…..she shoots from SR-1 (our spot)

So, we only play with her when we’re tired (and don’t want to shoot) — or, we’ve won enough that trip to just have some fun with her

This post has become one of the best this year, thanks again Professor.