How can you call an atempt to better your self at somthing a waste of time?

Even though i do not believe that a sself taught person can cut it there are the watsone of the world.

What about all the people here that have tryed to help meeting them is not a waste true.

This is a journey enjoy it, and if you can not find a path that pleases you for life is short and you deserve to be happy.

OMC, Interesting posting. Your problems can be addressed. Here are few suggestions. I am assuming you have taken the primer class and nothing more.

Sounds like you are doing like I used to do. In practice at home you place a bet on the pass line, set the dice and throw them down the table. You are playing with the chips, looking for a a number you have chips on hoping the chips will build up in the rack (and getting upset when they don’t), and not watching the reaction of the dice–how softly they land, how close they land on the table, do they split, are they close together, etc.

Forget that and work on some drills. Throw into a bowl. Use a mirror to check your grip (80% of most problems). Look at how the dice go through the air and how they land among other ways the dice may land. You can learn a lot by how the dice react. Learn to read the results to help you. These are just a few ideas.

You sound like you would like to be the Tiger Woods (or another top pro golfer) of the dice control world. They all take lessons and have teachers. If you have not done so take the primer class. If you have already taken the class you are experiencing some of the normal things that will creep into you dice control game. SO—assuming have taken the primer sigh up for a refresher class, take an elite video analysis, take a tune up or a combination.

I always wonder how people will buy in at the craps table for thousands of dollars over a long weekend at the casino and throw their money away, but won’t spend several hundred dollars to improve themselves. A type A person would certainly consider doing this.

See Goldfinger’s post concerning his great success in Vegas after he took the video analysis. I recently took a tune up from Dom and he only made some minor changes to my grip and set up and my practice has been off the wall. Bottom line, I feel (know) we all need some structured instruction from time to time. The pros on the PGA have swing coaches, short game coaches, and putting coaches–often not the same instructor. And they work with them weekly if not daily.

I see a pattern here. Hopefully you will too.

Your problem is only temporary. You have such great potential. Hope to see you in a class this year. It will do you wonders, not only physically with your throw but with the confidence between your ears.

Hope this will help you.

Doc

I would recommend a doing a refresher, or the Elite Video Analysis…..or both on the same weekend.

NFF

I might be wrong here but I don’t think One Moon Circles took any course owing to the fact that he switched from a three-finger grip to a one finger grip. I could be wrong…I mean it has to happen at least once in my lifetime. 😉

OMC, if you have not taken the Primer, you should. Without that and the training that comes from it, anything else is a waste of time and money.

NFF

OMC Fist thing go to the 3 grip because that is the only thing they teach or want you to use at first. I learned this last Oct. when I took the class. Also no 2v or 3v set.
You will see in class why they want you to do as they say.You have to start some were and they will show you. I found the most frustrating thing is the instructors saying that’s a good 7.
Some times it seems that the harder I try the worse it gets.I see the dice going threw the air and say to myself that is the best throw today to end up with a GOOD 7. as THE INSTRUCTORS WOULD have said.It takes time.
My last trip to a casino was good but practice since then has been terrible.
So it is better if you use the grip that they will tell you to use in class before hand or it will take to long to adjust. At least it did for me. I was still wanting to go to the 2 finger grip on Sun.
Good Rolling. 😀

OMC wrote in the original post on deciding to invest and take a GTC class. I assume this will be the Primer class.

OMC,

You are wise to stay out of the casinos until you have taken the class and then built muscle memory without grip or swing flaws.

I suspect you will be most thankful you decided to take the class. I also suspect you might find that the classroom instruction will be quite interesting as well.

It may also be wise to take a break from practice until your class. There is no sense in possibly grooving flaws into your grip and throw that will need to be changed.

I’ll look forward to meeting you at an upcoming class.

😎 😎 😎

Now that I have calmed down a bit here is a follow-up. First, I have not taken a class. I have been a GTC follower and advocate for 4 years. First saw the program on the History Channel and thought to myself "Can this be possible?" After 4 months of practice went to Vegas and made almost $600 in my first session at the table. Answered my own question with a resounding YES!

Being a type A personality when results don’t come close to effort the emotions with this take me over the cliff most of the time. I am trying to learn to overcome this but sometimes it is hell. This 2 month slump has been just that, hell. So now the hiatus for a little while. Try to re-gain some confidence and get my concentration back to an acceptable level.

I practice with 2 very good controllers and their advice and encouragement is helping me through. Thank you Goldfinger and JBW.

Thanks to you that replied. It is time to move forward again.

OMC

When I started playing craps there was no GTC or internet. I just picked a spot to throw the dice at and thought that if I could hit that same spot I was better off then just throwing them .
The year was 75 or 76 and if I liked how some one was rolling I would wait till he got the dice again to bet. No 5 count thing.
So who taught the Captain.Who taught the first pro golfer.
Even after you take 2 3 or more classes you may not roll as good as some.Some just have pure talent.Others it takes lots of practice like me.I just was reading a book that says 10000 hrs practice is were you get good at things. Not rolls but hrs. Also with coaching.
Unless you pitched pennies when you were a kid ( like Dom ) you are already behind most other sports.
You will learn a lot taking the class.
Good Rolling. 😀

This is a journey and not a destination. Sometimes we have to take a few steps back to make giant steps forward.

no offense to who you are practicing with, but taking a class would help … that is if you have an open mind to probably making some changes in your throw.

Dominator

OMC, did you ever get the camera to help you see yourself? We saw a few things at your place that one night? Also you stated that you felt yourself tossing harder when target practicing as opposed to regular shooting.

No matter what part of the practice routine is being worked on, the throw must stay constant. Otherwise no advancements can be made when the base is changing.

Three finger practice, body positioning, grip, release, all need to be grooved in and the primer helps in a base to be formed. Also, with your notes that are taken ( and I know you take a bunch of notes regarding your throws), and mental (Frank’s visualization) throwing the ability to self diagnosis sometimes comes.

If you do come to Vegas in June, the room offer is still open!

With all of your records of past throws, you might have to change your practice routine for awhile. It was brought up in several posts ( either gman or bman) do a good solid week of just target practice, then another week of watching your throw, watching your bounce, your height, etc… ALL without recording a single result! Frustrating, I know BUT it does help with grooving in the muscle memory!

I too like results, but I tried the above with some success! I am hoping the refresher will give me a better understanding of possible changes and the Intented results and what to watch for!!!

Hope to see you again soon!

In many endeavors a few steps backward usually precede big advancements. Craps is not singular in that. In my craps journey my own demeanor and attitude go a very long way with success or failure. I have a quick temper and roller coaster too damn much. I am trying to learn to be calmer and think more positively about my abilities. I know I am pretty good and with a better attitude and a calmer demeanor I think I would get to better consistency. It has been a battle for me all of my life. Striving for perfection but seldom achieving it.

JBW and Goldfinger do not coach that much in reality but when either has something to say I listen and try to follow their advise. One of the things they advise is take the class. For many reasons it has been not practical either in time or $ for me but that is changing. I hope to be in Vegas for the class this year but will probably not take it there but in Chicago.

Being self-taught is pretty easy. The hard part is being able to correctly analyze and correct problems. Most people have trouble doing this but for me the analysis is not too hard but applying the correct remedy can take a while. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Dom, lastly, one thing I am most concerned about is changing from the one finger front. I am very comfortable with it and hope instructors would say that if that is what you are comfortable with and determined to use

we will try to help maximize your results using the one finger front. I do realize that it may mean a little less success than what is perceived for the three finger front. Several of Frank’s book emphasize being comfortable with your grip plus I do get better results in the casinos.

OneMoonCircles

Well when I took the class this last Oct I had to change to the 3 finger grip. It took more then 1 day on Sun. I was still on auto pilot with the 2 fingers.I still have a tendency to use it.
Good LUCK convincing the instructors .I think that you will learn a lot.It is better if ever body is using the same grip. I just wish I had practiced with it before I got to class. Its not like this is my first year throwing the dice. I have had bad habits for more then 30 yrs.
Good Rolling. 😀

"OneMoonCircles" wrote: In many endeavors a few steps backward usually precede big advancements. Craps is not singular in that. In my craps journey my own demeanor and attitude go a very long way with success or failure. I have a quick temper and roller coaster too damn much. I am trying to learn to be calmer and think more positively about my abilities. I know I am pretty good and with a better attitude and a calmer demeanor I think I would get to better consistency. It has been a battle for me all of my life. Striving for perfection but seldom achieving it.

JBW and Goldfinger do not coach that much in reality but when either has something to say I listen and try to follow their advise. One of the things they advise is take the class. For many reasons it has been not practical either in time or $ for me but that is changing. I hope to be in Vegas for the class this year but will probably not take it there but in Chicago.

Being self-taught is pretty easy. The hard part is being able to correctly analyze and correct problems. Most people have trouble doing this but for me the analysis is not too hard but applying the correct remedy can take a while. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Dom, lastly, one thing I am most concerned about is changing from the one finger front. I am very comfortable with it and hope instructors would say that if that is what you are comfortable with and determined to use

we will try to help maximize your results using the one finger front. I do realize that it may mean a little less success than what is perceived for the three finger front. Several of Frank’s book emphasize being comfortable with your grip plus I do get better results in the casinos.

OneMoonCircles

OMC, No need to worry with your one finger front. What will probably happen is that we will look at your throw with your one finger front and possibly have you try the three finger front.

With the three finger you are creating a longer fulcrum for the dice to roll off your fingers, but you are holding the dice with just your middle finger and thumb. So, if you are getting the rotation you need with two fingers, great! Let me see it and I will tell you what I think.

About being bored during the lectures, I would bet that no one would ever say that Frank and I are boring during the lectures, so I know you will enjoy them as well

Dominator