Using Markers in Casinos
From Bob Dancer at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2013/0604.cfm
I’ve used casino credit on a semi-regular basis for more than two decades. While I’ve learned many things over the years, I don’t consider myself an expert on using casino credit. Still, I’ll share what I know (or at least think I know) and perhaps it’ll be useful to some of my readers.
Generally speaking, if you want a $10,000 line of credit at a casino, you must have at least $10,000 in a bank account somewhere. You can have $1,000,000 in stocks and bonds and own your fully-paid-off home, but if you don’t have at least $10,000 in a bank account, you’re going to have trouble getting a line of credit for that amount. You must also have good credit, which means you pay your bills and pay them on time.
In addition to being credit-worthy, the casino may well want to see evidence that you are willing to gamble at a level consistent with that credit-line amount. If you are a quarter single-line player who normally plays 4 hours or less and have never lost more than $500 in a single day, it’s hard for a casino to justify giving you a $10,000 line of credit. But if your worst loss at that casino was, say, $6,000, the casino will gladly provide you the opportunity to lose more next time.
Once you have established a line of credit, you are then able to borrow money from the casino. When you borrow that money, you will be asked to sign a "marker" which is a legal IOU (similar in many ways to a check which is not deposited immediately). A marker is an interest-free loan. If you pay it back in the time agreed upon (often 30 days, but the time period can vary greatly), you can take out another marker later. If you fail to pay it back on time, the casino may submit the marker to your bank for payment. Some casinos contact you before they do this. Some don’t.
There are several advantages to using markers:
a. You don’t have to carry cash to and from a casino. There are security reasons for this as well as practical ones if you’re traveling across the country to gamble. Taking large sums of cash through airports or while driving has perils. (Several Gambling with an Edge episodes with Bob Nersesian have discussed this in some detail.)
b. If you have lines of credit at several casinos (all obtained with the same bank account), you may draw on more than one of them at the same time. This can provide cash at 0% interest to get you through a short term money problem. However, as I’ll mention later, this practice has the potential to develop into a major disadvantage.
c. Some casinos have offers for credit players only. Casinos like to see that you have the wherewithal and willingness to sustain some losses. A line of credit proves to them that you do. So casinos will give you extra opportunities to lose more money. Casinos think of their customers as net losers, and that’s certainly true for most players. Winning players can make out well by using these credit benefits.
d. Some casinos give rebates on markers for losers — if you’re a good enough customer and ask for them. If you can get, say, 10% back on your markeys when you lose while keeping all of your winnings, that’s a great deal. Under that arrangement, you should ALWAYS take out a marker — even if you have a thick wad of cash in your pocket.
There are also several disadvantages to using markers:
a. You need to fill out a credit application. This necessitates releasing more personal information than many players wish to share. Video poker players have learned to live with W2-Gs and so are less reluctant to give out personal data than are many table game players. Table game players who wish to play unrated and remain relatively anonymous cannot use credit.
b. The days when casinos would send goons to hurt you if you didn’t pay your markers are over (at least in mainstream United States casinos). But markers are legal instruments and not paying them can get you into plenty of trouble nonetheless.
c. As with life in general, using credit wisely requires some financial savvy and discipline. Many players lack one or both of these. For these players, getting credit at a casino can lead to bankruptcy. The advantage of getting a lot of 0%-interest money to help through a short term financial problem can quickly become a very large disadvantage if the financial problem doesn’t remain short term.
d. Problem gamblers have gotten buried using credit. Enough said.
e. If you have a joint line of credit with a spouse and one of you is considering a divorce, that person can withdraw quite a lot of money without the other being aware of it. Depending on which side you’re on, this may be considered an advantage or a disadvantage. Messing with an about-to-be-ex’s credit is a tasty morsel for revengeful people.
f. Speaking of divorce, if you have several casino lines of credit, your spouse’s attorney could use this information to "prove" that you are a degenerate gambler who, therefore, shouldn’t get child visitation, etc. If your marriage is on the rocks, you should probably wait to take out casino lines of credit until the situation is resolved one way or the other. (As a personal aside, the prior couple of paragraphs are NOT autobiographical. When Shirley and I went through our divorce 6 months ago, the property settlement was agreed upon in 15 minutes without the use of attorneys. Shirley knew that gambling was the source of the family wealth — not the reason for the divorce. Some knowledgeable friends tell me I gave her too much in the settlement. Maybe. But there were considerable assets and avoiding paying lawyers $200,000 to split the estate dwarfs however much I overpaid. Since she doesn’t have any income other than Social Security, I would have had to pay for both attorneys.)
g. Casinos in Las Vegas share data via an organization called Central Credit (unless you’re a big whale whom they wish to keep secret). In general, casinos can use this organization to find out where else you play and what your credit history has been at those other casinos. If your "cover story" doesn’t jibe with the records in Central Credit, your cover is blown. Unfortunately, Casino Credit also has a history of selling player financial data to others. They paid a fine in 2010 and promised not to do it anymore, but . . . .
h. You really need to gamble at the casino from whom you get a marker. That may seem obvious, but it’s possible that you have a line of credit at, say, Bellagio and you need the money to gamble at Caesars. If you don’t give Bellagio at least some action after withdrawing a marker, you are said to be "walking with a marker." Casinos get irritated at this. They are NOT in the business of providing interest-free loans so the money can be used elsewhere. They ARE in the business of helping players gamble at their own property. Walking with a marker can cause your line of credit to be cancelled. It’s also possible this is something that’s included in the data reported to Central Credit. If so, doing it at one place can make it tough to get credit anywhere.
i. An exception to the previous paragraph is that gambling at a different property within the same corporate family is often not considered walking with a marker. For example, I have a line of credit at Bally’s — and have used that money to play at Paris or Planet Hollywood with no play at all at Bally’s. This has not been a problem.
As a final note, using markers, if done properly and judiciously, can be very beneficial for certain types of players. But it’s important to understand the specific rules related to markers at your casino and to understand the limitations and potential pitfalls of using markers. And it is also important to know yourself and whether you can responsibly handle these instruments.
Replies:
Posted by: Dr Crapology on June 21, 2013, 6:34 pm
Doc
Posted by: Dominator on June 22, 2013, 1:52 pm
Thanks Pointman!
Dominator
Posted by: Mr Finesse on June 22, 2013, 2:40 pm
I have been using markers at the casino’s I play at for over 10 years, it is convient and if I decide at the last minute to go to a casino I do not have to run to the bank to get money from my 401G.
Posted by: MIDNIGHT on June 22, 2013, 4:58 pm
Michael
Posted by: AlamoTx on June 24, 2013, 6:52 pm
Does the casino issue a 1099 for something like that? I have heard some gamblers say that they never use players cards or identify themselves in any way at the casinos so that if they win big, there is no record of them winning or losing. I’ve never gotten a 1099 from a casino, but I’ve heard of it happening.
My question boils down to this: Wouldn’t it be nice to win big and walk? No record anywhere? Of course, the NSA is probably monitoring my post here, and I’ll be pulled out of bed at 2am for exercising my right to free speech.
As a philosophical inquiry, are we ‘playing for comps’ by getting players cards and lines of credit or are we shooting ourselves in the foot by letting them know everything about us?
Alamo
Posted by: Pointman on June 24, 2013, 7:40 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_31_casinos
and the update
Posted by: AlamoTx on June 25, 2013, 12:08 am
Alamo
Posted by: AlamoTx on June 25, 2013, 12:38 am
Read about the CTRC stuff, and that seems to be reporting the casino has to do about its transactions.
I think what I’m wondering about is whether anonymity keeps your financial activities with the casino off the record so to speak. In other words does having a line of credit and/or a players card invite a 1099 from the casino at the end of the year? If so, at what point does the casino 1099 you? If they do issue a 1099, do they net it out or just report what they paid you in winnings. If its just winnings, I’m sure you could offset winnings with losses, but who keeps those records? i do, but I’m not sure most people do.
So…better to get a few comps or better to be the unknown handsome stranger who has a 40 roll hand and leaves with $5000 in chips, goes and cashes in $1000 of them; has dinner and a few drinks, cashes in $2000 of them; goes to bed; comes back in the morning and cashes in $2000 more? You get where I’m going with this.
I’m sure the Whales can’t hide, but maybe us little big players can?
Alamo
Posted by: Pointman on June 25, 2013, 12:56 pm
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/tax_ad … tax_a1.asp
as for who keeps the records. As always, its you. You are responsible for reporting all wins and can deduct your losses up to the amount of your wins. (see tax professional for advice pertaining to your specific situation). This of course unless gambling is your business. Then things do change but I’m not sure I know enough to help you here.
Posted by: AlamoTx on June 25, 2013, 1:02 pm
Alamo
Posted by: AlamoTx on June 25, 2013, 8:57 pm
Alamo
Posted by: MIDNIGHT on June 26, 2013, 2:36 pm
Michael
Posted by: AlamoTx on June 27, 2013, 12:19 am
Good to hear from someone who has experienced the very issue I wanted to know about. I’ll keep all my players cards…and, maybe I’ll get a credit line or two.
In any event, winning big and having to pay taxes beats losing big in any scenario.
Alamo
Posted by: Skinny on June 27, 2013, 4:26 am
Their procedure is very simple. They know how many chips of each denomination are in their bank. The bank consists of all the chips in front of the box man. The dealers on both sides of the table have chips in front of them called the working stacks. They know how many black and higher chips are in the working stacks of the dealers on both sides of the table. That is why the dealers have to ask the box for the black and higher stacks when they need those chips. When the box gives a stack of chips to a dealer to add to his working stack, the count is adjusted for what is in the working stacks and out on the table. Smaller casinos may even keep a count of the green as well. If a player walks up with chips the dealers notify the person responsible for the count how much has been added to the table.
After anyone colors up and walks away they do a count on the black and higher chips. If their count is off they know who has them and put it on the record.
Even if you are good enough to hide away a few chips there is a good chance they will catch it when you color up and their count does not match. Most folks are not even able to pocket chips without someone noticing. They are watching all the time and this is not their first rodeo.
You may have noticed the pit critters periodically doing a count of the chips. They are checking what is in the working stacks and on the table in the rails. If the count is off they try to rectify it by discussing who may have the extra chips.
Don’t mean to burst your bubble, but it is very difficult to hide chips.
Posted by: ACPA on June 27, 2013, 6:01 am
People have found that the casino records of win/ losses are not sufficient documentation to support losses for tax purposes. You need to keep a dairy showing the details of all your play.
I doubt there are any people on this site that would omit income that they received in cash with no W-2 or Form 1099 for it. But what you suggested is against the tax law.
Noah
I suggest anyone interested in tax issues look at the Topic "It’s Tax Time" in the Wisdom section.
Posted by: MIDNIGHT on June 27, 2013, 6:59 pm
You are completely right about the black chips. However, easier to do at a full table with several people playing black chips. I do tend to do it mostly with green chips. I play at mostly bigger casinos (MGM, Caesars properties) and they do not inventory less then black unless they are doing a full table count. My philosophy is every little bit can help.
Noah,
You are completely right as well. I would never tell anyone to break the law or commit fraud! I was simply stating the rules for 1099 and cashing in certain amounts at the tables! My wife is a lawyer and would kill me if She know what I did. However, that was a long time ago when I was young and stupid.
Posted by: Dr Crapology on June 29, 2013, 1:45 pm
Just be dam careful as you do not need aq big elephant on your back called the IRS. Be careful
Alligatorm Rose and doc