Doc Holliday
The "Vig" is a built in tax based on the long term random statistics to insure that the casino gets it’s take (I think they get more than their fair share since I rarely see many CF players walk away with any money much less a win). As a precision shooter, we alter the randomness of the game in our favor both regarding the low vig bets as well as the higher vig proposition bets. Since I’m only involved in the game on a short term basis, the shoot and scoot method, how much attention should I/we pay to the vig? (I’m sure Billy will have something to add here!)
Doc
fscobe responds
The "Vig," derived from the word “vigorish,” is defined as the percentage edge the house extracts for every dollar gambled. The vig is often misleading when it comes to how much a casino actually makes and how much a player actually loses in a random game and it is seriously misleading when it comes to an advantage player at craps who changes the odds by his controlled throwing.
For example, if Place betting is your style and if you Place the 6 and 8 in multiples of $6, the vig is considered 1.52 percent. You should get paid $7.20 for a winning $6 bet on the 6 or 8, but you only get paid $7 when you win. You’ll have five winners ($5 X $7 = $35) and six losers when the 7 rears its ugly head (6 X $6 = $36). In those 11 decisions, you’ll be down a dollar because the casino kept that dollar as its share. You’ve wagered $66 dollars on those 11 decisions, lost one dollar (1 divided by 66 is 0.01515). There’s the vig for the normal, random placing of the 6 and 8.
So you bring $100 to the casino and you figure you’re going to bet $6 on the 6 and 8, which is $12 total, thinking that you only stand to lose about 1.52 percent of your money, a dollar fifty to make it rounded. So you think you’re going to go home with about $98.50 in the long run using that same $100. But you won’t. In the long run the 1.52 percent house edge will wipe your $100 away and safely tuck it into the casino coffers. Why? Because in the long run, or even over one or a few sessions, you will bet far, far more than that $100.
You money will be going back and forth, back and forth, and with each back and forth, the house edge is subtly chop, chop, chopping away at your cash.
The placement of the 6 and 8 will see it acted upon approximately 44 times per hour, if we assume 100 rolls of the dice in that hour. So assuming in 100 rolls the numbers we’re concerned with, the 6, 8 or 7, will appear (on average) about 44 times. The 6 and 8 will appear approximately 28 times (winning you $196, while the 7 will pop up 17 times (losing you $204). I’m rounding up the fractions here so that’s why we have 44 percent but 45 appearances. Darn math!
In 100 rolls, you can expect to be down $8. One hundred rolls of the dice is about one hour’s worth of play, sometimes less in a fast game. Now that $100 has been whittled away to $92. In the second hour, you’ll lose another $8 and be down to $84 and on down it goes over time.
Of course in the real world of casino craps, the losing of your $100 will not be smooth. You might win a whole bunch of rolls right from the get-go and be substantially ahead. Conversely, you might lose a whole bunch of rolls and be so down, emotionally and economically, that the only thing you want to do is slink out of the casino and return to your room to suck your thumb.
And what about the casino itself? Chances are with all those craps tables seeing sustained action, the casino achieves the long run in short order and that means whatever swings, up or down, any given table is experiencing at any given moment will all smooth out according to the math as the other tables contribute to the casino’s bottom line.
Anyway, in a strictly random contest, the wise player just goes with the best mathematical bets if he wants to see his bankroll last as long as possible. These would be Pass with odds, Come with odds, the placing of the 6 or 8, and the buying of the other numbers if the “vig” is taken out only on a win.
In a random game a player has no chance to be a long-term winner if he actually plays a lot, the math will grind him to dust and that is the reality of the situation. Here math and reality are joined like siamese twins that can’t be separated. So my advice when paying against any random shooter or in any random game is to follow the math. The casinos do and they do quite nicely, economically speaking, thank you..
Now we come to the meat of the matter for controlled shooters. What relationship does the random vig have with the real vig when someone is changing the odds of the game by reducing the appearance of the 7? Do all the numbers fill in equally if someone’s SRR [seven to rolls ratio] is 1:8? Or do some numbers fill in more than others based on the set and the skill of that particular setter? Keep in mind that in a strictly random game of craps the SRR is 1:6.
It’s the latter, unquestionably, as the number do not fill in equally.
A skilled controlled shooter, staying reasonably on axis (meaning his dice stay pretty much as he originally set them without flopping to this or that side), will be avoiding not just the 7 but other numbers as well. It would take much too much time to go into which and why those numbers would be for every set, but suffice it to say that there’s a whole new set of mathematical principles when it comes to controlled shooting.
In studies of controlled shooting and its impact on the game, such as Dr. Catlin’s massive study of the 5-Count, we assume all the other numbers fill in equally for the decreasing appearance of the 7, but that’s just an easy way to figure out the math, a short cut, it isn’t really all that accurate. In reality, we have something very different going on.
Wise and skillful dice controllers will develop an understanding of which numbers they tend to hit more than other numbers as they are reducing the 7. These "signature numbers" will be like having the casinos name on one of those big, fat oversized checks, only this will be a cashable check, not a cardboard one. It will say: Pay to the Order of This Controlled Shooter.
Such "signatures" will be money in the bank despite the “vig” of the game.
Frank
LBGShoota responds
What does the “Vig” really mean for Precision Shooters?
I’ve heard & learned of the term. However, during play when I’m shooting or betting on others, the thought of “Vig” never crosses my mind. Hmm??
I looked the word up in a dictionary (Oxford College paperback version) & the closest spelling it relates to is, “Vigor” – meaning “physical/mental strength, energy, and power.” I’ve seen the word “vigorish” was used synonymously with vig in some of the gaming books that I’ve read.
What is interesting to me is the gaming term of its’ usage.
Correct me if I’m wrong, simply put, “Vig” is a mathematical calculation of the house’s/casino’s edge on each bet. In a nut shell, some vig bets give a greater advantage to the casino and some give a lesser advantage. Point is, no matter what, the house always has the edge or “Vig.”
Here’s an engaging angle:
My observation is, for the casino, the “Vig” is one of their best friends (a huge bank roll & giving heat are to 2 other popular ones) and an excellent reason as to why they are in the gaming industry. For the player, the vig is also what prevents them from winning (stupidity is “Vig’s” companion) and the vig inherently produces more “negative expectations” than “positive expectations.”
For an untrained craps player & non-precision shooter, the vig can be likened to an individual swimming up a powerful flowing stream, not impossible to do but extremely difficult to succeed at.
As a student of the game, I’ve learned that “precision shooting” has roots from pioneering dice-setters. As a matter of fact, dice-setting was often touted as a “myth” (and still is to this day). Much has change in the evolution of dice-setting. Precision shooting has taken its’ course and place. It has blossomed into an effective & elite strike force. A strike force that is so skilled that it has the potential to “ignore the vig” & “defy all mathematical assumptions.” And that’s my answer to the post question.
Yep, yep!! Precision Shooting is definitely my best friend at the table and especially in countering the vig. For me, that’s the sheer ecstasy about playing this game-the fact that I can hone my precision shooting skills to a point where on demand I am able to shoot the dice & hit numbers and make points for a sustained period before the devil shows up.
Wow, the thought of pounding numbers repetitively for a long period is “crap-gasmic!!”
lbgshoota
Billy The Kid responds
For most players the vig acts on them the same way.There will be swings up and down but after the up swings that player will see that the ups never quite make up for the downswings.If you were to plot it on a graph you would see a steady downtrend.When I was a gambler I would wait at the table for that HOT shooter and invariably when the hot shoot was over I still had less than when I started.
This isnt how the vig works on a precision shooter.If a shooter can surpass the 1/6 SRR then theoretically they would have an edge over the house in a craps game.
What does that mean and HOW would that advantage show up?
What it means is that the shooter would skew the numbers thrown vs the seven and consistantly show some numbers more than the math says they should show vs the seven.When this happens the shooter will have an advantage ON THOSE NUMBERS.
Does this mean that if your SSR is over 6 then you would have an advantage on ALL of the bets at the table?
NO!This is where the vig part comes in for a precision shooter.Because the casino takes a different cut from different bets the precision shooter must be better against a higher vig bet to be able to win during the longer term.Because the line bet w/odds is the lowest vig bet the shooter can be a winner by altering the outcomes in a smaller way.This is also true for the place bets on the 6/8.As the vig or house advantage climbs the shooter must produce more to gain the same advantage,because the casino TAKES more from the bet.This is key to understanding this concept.You might be able to beat a higher vig bet but because that vig,advantage,edge,cut or whatever else you call it is higher your return will be less.
So what does that mean to us?Well I guess it means that if we CAN show an edge then the best place to have that edge show up is with come/line bets and placing the 6/8 since beating those bets will return more money to us.
Heck with the whirl bet….6/8 work on the come out!!!
Billy the Kid
LBGShoota responds
Let me get this straight and I’m going to use Frank’s example of placing the 6 & 8.
Since there are 5-ways on the dice to make the 6 or 8, the true odds would pay increments of $6 to every $5 odds, made. Such is the case with making a passline or come bet backed with odds (By the way, and correct me if I’m wrong, there’s no vig on a passline &/or a come bet?).
Continuing on, in the situation of “placed bets payoff,” there’s a different twist. Instead, the house pays $7 to every $6 on a 6 or 8 placed bet. So, the Vigorish aka “Vig” or house advantage, amounts to 1.52% on each 6/8 placed. As Frank said, that calculates to 20 cents held back on every $7 paid for each $6 wagered. In the long run (as most gamblers are conditioned-for the long run “losing”) 11 payoffs on a 6 or 8 placed should have paid me $79.2 but instead, I only would receive $77. The $2.20 difference that I don’t get is what the house keeps, that’s the monetary figure for the “vig.”
Wow! Very mind boggling but I recognize that it is also an important fact to know about the game.
Thanks again
lbgshoota
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