Have you tried other tables at other casinios? Maybe the table conditions are very different than what your practice rig is. Some tables are just not worth the effort of trying to beat. Perhaps greener pastures might help.

It’s tough ALWAYS being the visiting team, playing on THEIR home field.

How’s your mental state? I have been meditating with a casino soundtrack playing in the background. Now when I hear slots I find it kind of soothing.

How is your 401K? Are you thinking (sweating) the money? I know the minute I look at the table and think about how much I have out there, it’s over. Even in practice at home when the money isn’t real.

Sounds like you have the physical part of the shot down. Now it is time to work on the shot between the ears.

Just my thoughts.

Hey PatS

This may sound cliche but "it is always darkest before the dawn". By this I mean that you are probably on the verge of something great at the casino. If your SRR is what you say it is then you DO have an edge over the casino—in the long run. Right now you are experiencing "short run doldrums", and the best is yet to come.

The only advice I could possibly give is to try and get your receiving station to act like the table you are throwing to.

Easy Roller

you know what they say … sh.. happens…

I could never explain it, the other day i got the dice and had a nice roll with some pass line
winners, next 5 rolls were 7 out and 4 were 6-1 and 1 was 5-2……come out roll was a
6 every time.

I know i could have thrown left handed and done better,

but thats life…. controlling the dice can mean you get the wrong numbers more than
you should, just as you get the right numbers more than you should.

If your throw is right it will work out for you, if not just get some help. Use a mirror to
see if your really correct.

One of the biggest items see is your practice may be on a longer or shorter table…. also a
biggy for me is the height of the table.

check these things and you will be ok

gman

Go over to an empty table and check it out . May be a little different then your rig.
This weekend I started out great. I got at SL 1 AND THE DICE WAS JUST GETTING TO SR 1 He threw for a point of 10 then I made a come bet and 7 out .
I get the dice and do the exact same thing. I should not have looked at what he did . 😀 😀
When the dice came back to me way say thing. What a hole I dug for myself.
3s a charm but things did get better. 😀 Had fun but lost a little no less.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

Hello PatS. First off, have you taken a class, and if so, when? It doesn’t appear in your profile if you have done so.

So, depending on a few things, this is what I have to say:
If you haven’t taken a class, the best way to improve is to take one;
If you have taken one, but it was 6 months or longer, it might be time to take a refresher;
If you have taken one, but very recently, then you need at least 6 months to a year to become somewhat proficient, and then
a refersher is very helpful.

Also, a 14 foot table is way too long for a beginner, especially SL2 at a 14 footer. At SL2 you are shooting close to a 16 foot table.
Can you find a casino with a 12 foot table?
If there aren’t any near you, then are you practicing at a 14 foot distance?

No matter what, 14 feet is a very long distance to try to overcome with any degree of proficiency, especially for a beginner.

Goddess

I have checked the tables I play at being in the Construction field my whole life helps me with being able to tell the difference of length & distence within inches so I am confident my practice rig is at the correct height that the table is at the Casino I go to is. In fact I measured the Casino table to my hip and literally marked my pants so I could measure when I got home. I’m anal like that I have to have everything perfect or as close as I can, as well as have the best materials. I emailed Dom with my concerns about the felt I was using and the material I used to build my first rig. He replied with good advice that I noticed the difference, I purchased to of the line pool table felt for a layout and I used 3/4" press board for the base with an adjustable stand that I can raise and lower as needed. Also my throwing station is adjustable, Rigid makes a great stand that is perfect for practice rigs Home Depot sells them for about $30.

Godess, no I have not had the opportunity to take the classes yet, I am new at Craps this is my first time throwing dice other than when I was younger in the alley, but that’s hardly the same. I’m a pretty successful Roulette player believe it or not Roulette always bails me out when I lose at the Crap tables.
I know your right and I plan on taking the class in March in A/C, however I can’t be too far off from doing this right. According to smart Craps anyway, I’m extremely satisfied with my practice sessions. I realize there is much more to learn and to master this could take many years that’s not my issue. My issue is I should at least be able to stay away from that nasty 7 for at least a few throws. It seems as if when I love the way they fly and spin and I feel like I did well its bang 6-1 I mean not even 5-2 or 4-3.
With respect to the table length, again your probably right and I am certainly no one to disagree with you and everyone else who are instructors. However my feeling is, if the table is 14′ and I practice at 7′-8′ wouldn’t SL1 be roughly at that distence? I mean it would have to be if the stickman spot is center of the table. It certainly feels right the distence I mean. I go to PA as opposed to AC only for convenience it’s just closer to me.

I honestly believe its the tables, it’s a funny feel the tables there, sometimes the dice kinda bounce backwards as opposed to hitting the wall, sometimes they hit and stop dead, you can literally see one die teeter on edge before it falls and sometimes they bounce completely off the table. I have gone to an empty table and pressed on it punched it tried everything to try and figure out what’s under that layout. I’m just not going there anymore, I’m going to go to AC. So far the few times I went to AC I did pretty well, so ill just have to travel further that’s all.

When I went to Pa. the table were bouncy. Like the first throw I saw was hitting BOTH ends of table . They were young men throwing vary hard also stick hit me in the head with stick and told him that I left my hard hat at home 2,000 miles away so please don’t do that any more Thank You.
My table is built with 2 3/4 in oak ply wood which seems to work out OK.
Got my felt in Vegas like the ones they use in casinos.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

PatS,
My practice stations were measured the same as you describe you did. I build them as close to the table I play at most often. Sometimes I suffer just as you are pointing out. The grip seems perfect, the dice rotate together, the throw looks great, they hit the target, softly bounce off the wall and I have a seven out. When I analysis what was wrong I mostly find that the height of the arch is slightly lower in the casino than at home practicing. Just my thoughts. Good luck. It’s great to be throwing! Set44 😀

Set44 that’s a possibility also one aspect that I did not consider and it makes sense, when I’m home it’s more relaxed environment and it is "Pracrice". Thanks

Finisher, I know what you mean they are all kids it takes them forever to figure payouts in PA. I interested in how you shot? Where you able to maintain control? Did you need to alter your delivery to compensate for the bouncy table? Did specific sets work better then others?

It was a while back so the memory is gone. 😀 😀 But made 11.00 I think. Not bad for getting hit in the head. 😀 😀 I remember fairly little of what I have rolled after . Just getting old. 😀 😀
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

I could go into my theory of what’s happening to you but that would hint at secrets I would be pretty sure (95%++) that I am the only one here who concretely KNOWS THEM, as in real life. The info, like dice control, is acquired over decades and its sure worth more than $1500. It has to do with how to use your mind to affect physical dynamics at a distance, as does stuff like telekinesis. In essence whether you know you are doing so or not (almost all people are "NOTs"), a successful, thriving dice controller indeed has a psychological element to his skill…he or she just underestimates the nature and capability of that psychological element to his or her throw. Sorry nobody here has anything worth trading for more than the above slight hint. For the savvy, just knowing that the possibility exists is sufficient, ultimately, to its discovery & application. All others, to learn it there is no time off…to know it is to BE IT.

The difference between throwing a 7 and throwing your point (say, a 5) are like consecutive pages in a book. You can throw what can be analyzed as a perfect controlled throw and the dice can still end up a 7. We all have been thru that. Instead of the months long detective work to try to ferret out the cause of your anomaly that is manifest only when you step into a live casino, there may be a quick fix that basically is simply to get you many hours of within-casino throwing practice at close to no monetary risk, and have you throw and throw, practicing away til your dilemma disappears. Try this:

1. Stay at a casino large enough to have 2 or more craps tables, but not one so popular that it is full of people at all hours. Find a casino that "goes quiet" between 3:00-5:15 am, so that you can, at that early morning time, walk up and use a craps table and be the only player there. Hand out a $5 toke to the dealers & tell ’em you need to practice your throw, that’s why you picked such a lonely time to play.

2. Place a PASS together with a DON’T PASS bet. I think it is legal craps rules to not bet any further, but, if you want, pick a 6 or 8 if you like and bet $1 on its hardway bet. This way, it will cost you no more than $2/throw and you might even win something.

3. Roll repeated PASS/DON’T PASS bets til you can get back "in the zone" with the table crew watching and all the time, inside the casino. Do this every night you are there unless the problem goes away for good.

4*. If you throw a 12 (odds 1/36), on your next comeout you would need to use another $10 chip to replace the lost PASS bet chip. This was the same risk designed into the old Captain’s Supersystem, since on the DON’T side a 12 roll is a push. (I might guess that a buy-in for $40 in $5-chips and $20 in $1-chips would last you quite a while unless you rolled many 12s for some kooky reason). [I think I worded that correctly..apologies if not].

It is quick, cheap, dirty, and effective I hope.

–lylastar

Thanks for your post and contributing to our message boards, lylastar.

I will suggest to PatS (and others) NOT TO tell the dealers or other casino personnel that you are there to "practice your throw."

No matter how obvious, discussing advantage play at the tables is NEVER a good thing, especially within earshot of casino personnel.

😎 😎 😎

"lylastar" wrote: I could go into my theory of what’s happening to you but that would hint at secrets I would be pretty sure (95%++) that I am the only one here who concretely KNOWS THEM, as in real life. The info, like dice control, is acquired over decades and its sure worth more than $1500. –lylastar

Damn, and to think we are sooooo lucky to have the privileged of your presence. We genuflect to your superiority. 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

Lylaster thank you for that, as I am a novice to this skill I will assume what your saying in a nut shell is that although there is skill involved I need a mental state of mind at the table? So I need to believe in what I’m doing not just expect that if I go through the motions perfectly the result should be spectacular.

I get what Timmer is saying, I won’t just announce " I’m here to practice beating this Casino " but I certainly will try this method of practice. It seems low risk and I think it’s what I need to get more time at these tables that I have such a hard time with. I also need to figure out how to get into the proper state of mind, especially in the heat of the moment.

Amazing what one needs to learn to master this skill, it’s gotta be the toughest thing I have ever tried to do.

Thanks for all your support and help everyone…..

Hello!

You might also want to make an overlay for your current receiving station. Since you are a construction person it should be fairly easy for you to do. Just cut another piece of plywood that matches the inside dimensions of the top of your receiving station and attach foam of whatever you think will make it like the table you play on the most and then cover that with felt. That way you can practice with either type of table variance by just adding or removing your new table top piece.

Actually, I think your best idea was to stay off that casino table until at least after you have taken your first class with GTC. If the tables in AC seem to be easier for you to win on then play those. Why make it harder on yourself right now! 😕

Dom has a couple of great articles about the mental aspect of play in the free section of the GTC site. If you haven’t already read them then take a look. I think the one I like best is about how to clear your head when shooting in the casino. Many things are out there so just read some things until something clicks and tells you that is the right way for you. Then go with that.

I think everyone on this board appreciates your enthusiasm and posts but I will say again that you may be so enthusiastic that you are rushing all of this and it really may not be the best thing for learning how to influence the dice. Hard to do when you enjoy it so much but just practicing with gripping and expanding your 401G while you wait so you will have more money to play with once you are schooled is really going to help you in the long run and the long run is the most important thing. Remember that the turtle actually won the race! 😀

Don’t mean to rain on your parade and this is just my opinion so Carry On and many great rolls to you!

What a bunch of BS from some people who post on this super site. And the biggest pain to read is the superior intellect Lylaster. This person received free time on the website, then has the nerve to blast the people who are the nuts and bolts here. Now this person is giving his lessons to new readers as if he is a veteran of the craps world. Come on – you cry the blues that you cannot afford the price to go to the GTC classes yet you post about your trips to casinos. Now you are explaining how to go early in the AM and "practice" your throwing. Try saving your money, stay away from the casinos, spend the money for the classes, then preach your knowledge to we peons with miniscule cranial deficiencies!

Thanks Getagrip, I actually picked up a thin roll of Cork Board to try out and see if that feels the same.

Hey Kingfisher I can’t tell with your tirade of a post who you are frustrated or angry with nor can I tel if wether or not Lylaster is a welcomed member here. However I can speak for me as for your last reference seems to be directed at me from some of my previous posts.

I’ll have you know that I have made it clear in previous posts how privileged I feel and happy I am to be welcomed and become part of this orginization, further I have never been arrigant or dissrespectful to anyone on here, in fact I have made it a pont to be humble and polite and try to chose my words carefully not to come off like an asshole unlike some. But the truth of the matter is, in my mind asking questions and starting discussions is a great way to learn. If you don’t like the topic then mind your business. I have read everything I have written and I personally feel your out of line accusing me of "blasting people" on here? (Again I’m assuming your referring to me, I honestly can’t tell the way your wrote the post.) I have in no way blasted anyone nor would I, all I want to do is be the best I can be. What better way to achieve that then learn from the best? With respect to your directing me what I should do with my money or my time; again none of your business and again your out of line. Since your so interested in what I write and what I do I have also made it that I do plan on taking the class it’s not until March. And if I feel depressed about losing MY money and want to discuss it, it’s none of your business if it bothers you then don’t read it, if it bothers you then certainly don’t reply to it. To steel a line from a great movie, either way I don’t give a damn what you think!!

If by any chance I have completely misinterpreted your post then my sincere apologies, but I know that last part was directed at me.

Hey i found this maybe this will help you
"The distance between the back wall of your Practice rig and the are you are throwing from should be approx. 7 to 8 feet. The ideal length table to play on is 12 feet long, the center of the table (where the proposition bets are located) will be 51/2 to 6 feet from the back wall and if you are at STICK L or R you will be another 1 to 2 feet away, thus 7 to 8 feet away from the back wall. So if you have a throwing station or what ever you are throwing from place it this distance from your practice rig. I have my dining room table between the two with a craps layout on it and my journal to make notes in."
from:
"Home Pratice Routine" by Mr. Finesse
Postby fscobe » 08 Jan 2012 11:28
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65&p=80&hilit=delivery#p80

i have the same problem c1eve1@nd new h()rsesh()e casino i was doing ok then they changed the tables now its bouncy as heck trying to adjust to it its so close to home i dont want to give up yet.

Pat S – sorry you misunderstood my post. It was in no way a comment directed to you. I wish you the best but trust the veterans opinions here first and foremost. They have been down the road.

Pat I am from the Hellertown area originally and my 7 younger brothers all live close to that casino so I used to go there alot when I first started learning this skill. I had similar results. On one such visit they were recovering one of the tables and you are right there is a thin layer of white foam sheet under the layout. Those tables are tough. I now live down near Willow Grove and although my favorite casinos are in AC I have recently been playing in Valley Forge at the V. It’s a nice casino with 12′ tables . I can’t make any comments about the playability of the tables but I will message you with more info if you like. The V at Valley Forge is located in the Radison Hotel in Valley Forge on Gulph Road just off the PA turnpike and I76. I really like to play here because the crew keeps the game moving and they are very nice. Food isn’t bad the drink girls are beautiful and quick. The casino has 4 12ft. tables and they usually have 2 $10 and one $25 table working.
I have gone through the 6:1 plague myself and discovered, at a refresher, that although the dice were rotating together and hitting the target they were sometimes hitting on the left edges causeing them to pitch over off axis. When the dice settle on your practice rig are they still on axis? Everything will work out in the end. If things aren’t working out yet it isn’t the end. 😀

"Set44" wrote: PatS,
My practice stations were measured the same as you describe you did. I build them as close to the table I play at most often. Sometimes I suffer just as you are pointing out. The grip seems perfect, the dice rotate together, the throw looks great, they hit the target, softly bounce off the wall and I have a seven out. When I analysis what was wrong I mostly find that the height of the arch is slightly lower in the casino than at home practicing. Just my thoughts. Good luck. It’s great to be throwing! Set44 😀

Have you looked at the post about 45 degrees ?

lylaster Try putting a buck on the 12 only on come out roll and IF you roll it one time in 10 come out rolls you will be ahead . That is if you feel that unlucky about the 12 showing.
Just a thought.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

"Timmer" wrote: Thanks for your post and contributing to our message boards, lylastar.

I will suggest to PatS (and others) NOT TO tell the dealers or other casino personnel that you are there to "practice your throw."

No matter how obvious, discussing advantage play at the tables is NEVER a good thing, especially within earshot of casino personnel.

😎 😎 😎

However, announcing that you are using Lylastar’s secret telekinesis method is highly recommend. This is likely some of the best cover ever. 🙂

That is awesome that’s exactly what I figured, now I can build a secondary recieving station and practice on that bouncy table. Thank you it’s great how you saw the makeup of the table, hat casino is just so convenient for me. Thanks again William this info is much appreciated….

Happy holidays

Kingfisher my apologies man, I feared that I misunderstood and took your post the wrong way. My damn ego and my stubborn Italian comes out when I feel threatened or abused. I’m sorry man Sincerley, I’m often in PA it would nice to meet up sometime.

I am curious, how do you know you are doing it right?

I can tell I’m doing it right using the Pro-Test results from Smart Craps software.
Using the HW set I document my results input them into the software and read the report.
If I can see that the dice are flying on axis landing where I aim and the result is passing according
To pro-test I must be doing something right. I can pass 2 of 3 tests consistently with over 5000 recorded throws, I feel from what I read that is a sufficient number of throws to get an idea of what my average is. No? Further I’m very close to being able to pass all 3 as I have improved significantly in the last 1200 throws I can see by the result of each throw.

my practice sheet has 246 throws 6 columns of 41 spaces starting with 2/2 with 6 facing left then 3/3 and so on up to 5/5 then the last 2 columns I will mix it up. Last nights practice I only threw 20 sevens out of 246 and 31 HW’s and I think it was only 5 or 6 of the 7s that where 6/1 don’t remember exactly.

PatS Have a question. How long do you practice . If you do the sheet that is a lot but I am old and get tired a lot.
That SRR OF 12.6 IS GREAT HOPE YOU CAN DO THE SAME OR BETTER IN THE CASINO .
Good Rolling. PS sorry about the caps . 😀 😀

Hi Finisher,
I try to practice at least 1 hour per session or at least to get one full practice sheet complete.
My average SRR is not 12 (I Wish) that’s just that one sheet of 246 throws my average with over 5000 documented throws is steady 8.7 which is still good considering the first 3000 documented throws I was having Grip issues & release issues so I was not as good as I am now and im getting better. Also I use a regiment, I go through the series of HW sets on one sheet that’s to document smart craps. Then I do a separate sheet for Come out rolls which mostly consist of 7’s and Craps however when I do make a point, then I switch sheets and play a simulated session with betting And puses as if i were in the casino. Do you do the same thing?

I know what you mean sometimes I get tired as well, but I stop then. I read somewhere that fatigue can throw you off its not good. My most common issue I have is my lower back, if I don’t get my stance just right my lower back kills me.

durring your next trip chart your numbers whle you are playing that will tell you what is up.

Be aware of tables with built in washboards in the landing zone. I always watch some prior to coming up to the table and if possible I run my hand across the landing zone. I ran into a table in Downtown Las Vegas with what the dealer bragged about as their special randomizer which was this built in washboard. Once he pointed it our I cound see the wear lines across the width of the table.

Really ?