Danny I am no one to give advice and I’m sure you will get some great advice on here. But I can tell you this, the stress and the pressure is tremendous when they slide those dice to you for the first time you try to use this method of "Control" seriously! I’m the kind of athlete that always steps it up under pressure in fact I love it. With every other sport!!! This thing is crazy hard i had all to do to keep from shaking,

I think the best advice I’ve read regarding trying to remain calm is "have a shot" "exercise" " and breathing, or lack there of" they say exhale and just hold it through the throw it works. I’m interested to hear if you felt the same stress.. Oh yes also they advised me to try and stay away from the Casino’s until after I get a lesson or two.

Good luck and good control,

You’re smart to use the 5-count, Danny.

The call of the casinos is tempting. I do hope you have a winning trip and add to your bankroll because of it.

Probably best not to name the casinos you intend to play at on the message board. That is best done privately.

Have fun and let us know how you did!

😎 😎 😎

Feel free to 5 count yourself if you feel too nervous. Call it a cover charge to test your rolling in live casino play! That way you don’t risk much of your buy in on shakey rolls. Once you get comfortable then Game ON!

Just got to the city. lunch at Gordon Biersch while reading some more Cutting Edge Craps. then head out to start the trip! Thx for encouragement. full report to come later.

Can’t wait and GOOD LUCK!

Dominator

danny. We can all relate to where you are at. When I visit a new place for the first time I hit the tables early in the morning when they are empty and low limit. I usually end up on the table by myself and I make low limit pass line bets till I start feeling comfortable. I look at it as inexpensive practice. I may go point seven a few times but the comout sevens and occasional point made usually keep it cheap. Good Luck. 5 count everyone including yourself and use the golden ruler.

Ok here is how I can sum up the trip:
Excited to get there, Relieved on the first roll, Frustration sets in, irritation, disappointment, stuck with it, encouraged, ended on a high note.

Ok now let’s explain a little.

I was pretty excited to get up to Vegas. I had just come off a pretty wild work schedule and was able to take the rest of the week off to head up to the Trader’s Expo at "greek" palace this week. That was for my other hobby of trading stocks so I won’t bore you with those details. But, the evenings gave me plenty of time to focus on the craps games. On my way up (I live in Phoenix so drove), I was practicing my grip in the car on the center console. Took a few dice with me as Frank recommended in the book just to hold. I had a nice lunch and was continuing my reading in Cutting Edge Craps. I had just finished the chapter on the bounciness of various tables and didn’t know yet how that would affect me for the weekend.

I head over to the Playboy hotel and checked in on my free room offer. I actually didn’t stay at Playboy hotel at all because a week before I headed up I got another offer from "The purple C" which is closer to the strip and my conference so I double booked. Playboy Hotel was willing to give me some promo chips and I have my casino credit there so I figured I might as well get the chips and markers and then head to cosmo. Anyhow, I headed over to the craps tables. I had a few players in front of me and started the 5 count. I placed my pass line bets and waited through the 5 count. After the 4th roll, I generally put out a come bet to get on some numbers with 3X odds. I think in these first 2-3 rollers, I lost just about every time by the 6th or 7th roll. I may have hit 1 of my Come bets but was already down 75$ on a $5 table. Then the dice came to me. As a rule of thumb, I generally put more money on the pass line during my rolls. My reasoning was that I was going to throw the All 7 set so I might as well put $10 vs. $5 on my passline. My first number was a 6 and I put out a place bet on the 8 and bought the 4 for $25. I wasn’t sure if they would allow $25 for a $1 vig on win or they would be only wanting the $20 increments. They seemed not to care about $25 so I left it at that. My first roll I hit a 4 and perhaps an 8. I then hit my point of a 6. I was feeling pretty good.

Then reality hit me. I think over the next 5 times I rolled the dice, I would repeat similar bet strategies and get everything setup. I then would 7 out within 2-3 rolls without once hitting a point. I was in a bit of shell shock that this was happening. It wasn’t till later when I thought about things that I would recall that my dice were all over the place. They were bouncing hard and scattering off the back wall. Later that chapter on the various bounces would be remembered and at the time, I hadn’t thought to work on my angles and get less bounce. I was just too caught up in all the real life bets to remember my learnings. I left Playboy Hotel down maybe 300-400 bucks and with $500 on my head.

The one thing I did notice at Playboy hotel was that as soon as I missed the back wall once, I had one of the stickmen remind me that I needed to hit the back wall. Then it happened again later on in the hour and they reminded me again. I think even the table manager said I need to hit the wall. I was a bit shaken by this as they weren’t saying it to anyone else missing the wall.

Headed to The Purple C. Decided I should shrug off that first encounter and refocus at the tables. I was now 1-5 in my last 6 throws with hitting a point and was encouraged when I finally hit a point again. I felt the ice was finally broken. The tables over at this hotel were different. Not as much bounce but still a decent bounce. I felt I was doing ok, but then while I was waiting on 7-8 others to throw the dice, I found myself losing money on my Come bets and getting drained on 2-3X odds I was placing. I understood that the odds are an even prop with the casinos, but it surely didn’t feel even at that time. I had only thrown 2-3 times over a couple hours and couldn’t gain any consistency with the lags in between. I still was getting over the learning curve of being at the casinos for the first time. My practice setup is just a box in my living room. Suddenly, I am around a full crew, people, chips, music, etc. I was still adjusting to all of this and in the process missed the back wall a few times again. Right away I was warned by the crews even though I had been tipping. As the night progressed, I got the hang of the distance and didn’t miss the back wall for a while. Then later in the night I would and I got a stern warning from the center manager. I told him I was doing my best and he came back with a cynical "no you aren’t". That was pretty annoying. But, the money continued to dwindle as I couldn’t get more than 2 pts in a row and often it was just 1. I hadn’t hit a roll of over 12 I would guess. Honestly, I wasn’t counting rolls. It was too much to focus on with everything else going on. This is something I worked on the rest of the weekend to get better at focusing on my rolls.

So, now after 1 full afternoon/evening, I am down about $700. I head down early the next morning around 6am. Nobody was at the table and I recall from the books that these are great times to roll. I must have played for about 1.5 hrs. I was able to practice my two sets (all 7 for come out rolls, and hard way for everything else). I got a hang of the distance and the bounce. I had the repetition I was seeking the night before to be ready on a "real table" vs. my throwing station. My results were better after an initial drag at the start. I think I was down 2 hundred and then finally started making serious rolls. I hit 3pts several times and 4 pts once. I swung from down to up 300 bucks. I ended a little poorly with a few 7 outs without a point but still ended the session up $150. I finally started to feel encouraged after the previous day of disappointment and irritation. Over at The Greek palace, I took a break from the expo and walked to the tables. They only had $25 table open at 11am. I was a little surprised because this casino is so big and wondered how they could only have 1 table open. I decided that I would risk $240 bucks and if I lost, I might just have to stop for the trip as I would be getting close to $1000 loss.

I waited for my toss and got the dice. I placed just a $6 and $8 at first. $25 on the pass line and $50 odds. So I have now $135 out there for my first roll. I think my point was an 8 or a 10. Can’t recall exactly but I hit it. That gave me a confidence boost. Then things just took off. I hit 4 total points and estimate I rolled about 25 times with before my final 7. I added a buy on the 4 after my first point and hit that at least 2 times. After the fourth point hit, the pit boss said "check those dice" but then smirked at me and said "ahh…I mean, congratulations sir" the look was classic. The way he looked at me made me realize that this stuff works when done correctly. He probably knew I was controlling the dice. I made about $350 at the table but others who were betting black chips made much more. I even got some great kudos from the 4-5 players at the table. It was nice to hear someone say "great roll kid" as I was coloring up. In retrospect, playing this table was probably dumb. I guess I didn’t care anymore. I had $240 to lose and I figured I should either lose it and be done or possibly hit a good streak and be back in the game. My bankroll wasn’t high enough to play $25 min but I survived. I would go back to this well again the next day for another 3 points and $250 and that was the last time I played the $25 table. I realized that if I had 7-ed out right away, I’d lost about $150. Do that 2 times in a row plus wait for your roll, you’re probably down $500 easily.

Decided to head to Laughlin on Friday night as my trip was coming to an end. I had to come back home Saturday and the drive from Laughlin is 1.5 hrs shorter. Got to the tables and noticed that right away they were 2 feet longer. They may have even been 4 feet longer but all I know is that they weren’t this long in Vegas. It took me a little while to get to throwing further. I think I lost $200 right away at the Belle before heading back to Don’s for the night. Jumped on the tables there and they too were longer. One of the two tables had old, very small pyramids. This is the first time I had seen these since I started the trip. These were much easier to me. It felt like they didn’t bounce off the wall as hard and scatter as much. I want to get back to this table as only 1 of the 2 at the casino was this way. I was hitting more points in general. I also changed my bets on the random rollers to betting just min pass line and 1X odds. It was too bad it took me 2 days to start making this adjustment. I lost most of my money trying 2-3X odds on others and getting 2 or 3 come bets with 2-3X odds and then losing it on roll 7 or 8. Sometimes these come bets would work if the guy hit 1-2 points. But, often, it was generally a loss or a break even roll. Not too many rolls were bank roll building except my own.

I played for 2-3 hrs Friday night, had some fun and probably made $150. Had to leave early Saturday morning unfortunately so only had time for 3 rolls before getting in the car. They way I left Laughlin was the best part. I was willing to lose about $200 and was soon down $125 after my first roll and watching 3-4 others 7 out literally every toss after the point was hit. They even hit several 3s, 2s, and 12s to lose me just a little more. Then everything came together. I went on maybe a 24 roll throw. I hit 4 points and started filling my rack. I eventually 7-ed out and let the only other guy at the table roll. He lost me 10 bucks after he was out after 2 rolls and then I got the dice back. I then hit maybe 17 rolls with 3 pts. Ended up leaving that table up about $250 but was betting very low amounts and had come back from being down almost $200 at the start of my rolls. Had I been at that $25 table at The Greek Palace, I would have been up a grand. I had just $6 on the 6 and 8 and might have pressed it to $12. Didn’t have anything on the 4 or 10 as Laughlin makes you pay the vig up front. Threw in a couple Come bets and hit those. I was really happy and so were the dealers. I was tipping them well. I even decided to try the 4-2 hop bet discussed in Frank’s latest book. The funny thing was, I tried it 4 times with $5 bets. Lost the $20 and then hit it on roll 5 with 0 wagered. We all had a good laugh as I was talking to the dealer. Then the other guy at the table wanted to try it because he had never heard of the bet. He of course randomly hits it on the first try and suddenly he is the pro. Then I try it again with 4 – $1 bets and hit it on roll 4. Even got the dealers a hit with it as well. My timing was a bit off but it was a fun session trying for it a few times.

Overall, yes that was a long post, I had a good time. I wasn’t able to overcome my initial losses while I was still learning the ropes. I was down maybe 1300 at one point and ended up down only about $600. Had I had more time, perhaps it would have gone well in Laughlin or perhaps not. I am glad I left when I did because I felt things coming together and that let me leave on a high note. I know dice control works because I could see how the dice react with the bounce and wall and see what faces come up more than others. I often hit hard 4s when I was throwing hard way set. I would say I was 50% hard vs. 33% random. I also hit plenty of hard 8s and 10s. I didn’t bet these but occasionally played a hard 4 just because I felt I personally hit these the most. I never seemed to hit them when I had my bet out. maybe 2 out of 7 times bet for $5. I also had rolls of 20+ about 4-5 times over the weekend and hit 4 or more points 5 times. For all the other rollers, most were out before 1 point and some hit just 1 pt. Only 2 guys all weekend hit over 3 points and that seemed rare. As I hit 4-5pts 5 times, I could already tell it was because of the control I had of the dice.

I also realized that the chapter in the book talking about harassment by the dealers is COMPLETELY TRUE. Well, maybe not always the stick guys, but often the middle table manager. Was really annoying in Vegas but never happened in Laughlin. That was pleasant. And the 5 count system works and I didn’t find it hard to not bet as I knew it was just a waste of time. I just looked at it as an expense to get back to my roll but none the less clapped and acted happy when they got lucky and hit a point.

So, I need to stick to the practice. I need to log more throws and practice my control. Every time I felt my grip weak a little or perhaps a small gap between the dice, I would think of it right before the throw. I would say, don’t throw it they will separate more and 7 out. And about 8 out of every 10 times, sure enough, 7 out. LOL. Maybe that was just mental or a coincidence. Who knows.

With some better bet management for next time and now knowing what a real table feels like, I think I can do better. I can adjust my angle on bouncy tables or just avoid them if I need to do so. The bounces made the 1 and 6 pip come up more often and lead to 7s. Those are the adjustments I need to make.

Thanks for reading. I know that was a long post. Looking forward to my next trip with even more practice under the belt.

Edited to remove names. Danny

DannyP I would be happy to practice with you some time I also live in Phx. Give me an E- mail off line and I will send you my PHONE NO. You can see the table that I built under TABLE on past posts.
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

I am just really a beginner dice controller so it is definitely not my place to criticize your play like I was some big authority…’cause I’m not. It’s just that I caught you playing so differently than I would have approached it…I offer you my opinion which is only that…take it, leave it if it is not of help…I too am learning the ropes. I’ll itemize my differences below:

1. The 5-Count is a real weapon but only if you truly use it. If I read you correctly, you were putting down passline bets on players whom you were then testing with the 5-Count. If you are qualifying a new shooter (goes for every time they get the dice again, too) you BET NOT A DIME ON THEM while you are counting up their rolls. Do not feel bashful. Many craps players only bet money on shooters who they prequalify.

2. You had no limited bet for yourself as you started warming up. I learned of the need for it by using a felt craps layout and real chips to simulate how I fair when playing alone on a craps table early in the morning. The presumption is: when you first start rolling you are sorta raw, not in your groove, so you need a "middle-size" single bet to employ so that if you 7out a lot at first, you won’t loose much money. The assumption follows that within 15-30 minutes you get warmed up. THE TEST OF THIS IS IN THE DICE RESULTS. Getting lots of 6s & 8s? Few to almost no 7outs other than the comeout roll? Good. Once in the groove, now bet whatever larger amount/strategy you routinely use when you are your own shooter of nice, CONTROLLED/INFLUENCED DICE. Use the chips and simulation to determine what a reasonable session should be like…how much to win before walking away (so the casino won’t win it all back!)…almost more importantly: how much of a loss to tolerate before aborting your session and coming back to try later. For me it is $50. Or 4 7outs consecutively. I felt at one point you ground down a losing session way below what i would have walked away from.

3. Do not let snide remarks from dealers/stickmen/boxmen/pit personnel affect your cheery, polite, but humble outward personality to be used when shooting. Most such remarks are not even worth a reply other than a cheerful smile and perhaps a "heartfelt" sorry, sir! Obviously you don’t have to mean any of it. But to match belligerance in like kind is craps suicide. It poses to the authority figure "who has the power here?" The answer is always: "them!" So wise people leave the issue untested. "I’m sorry" works real well for me. Once again, I don’t have to mean it, just have to say it.

Good luck in your journeys!

–lylastar

Names…. names… read the rules for posting… the names….
😮 😕 😡

"lylastar" wrote: I am just really a beginner dice controller so it is definitely not my place to criticize your play like I was some big authority…’cause I’m not. It’s just that I caught you playing so differently than I would have approached it…I offer you my opinion which is only that…take it, leave it if it is not of help…I too am learning the ropes. I’ll itemize my differences below:

1. The 5-Count is a real weapon but only if you truly use it. If I read you correctly, you were putting down passline bets on players whom you were then testing with the 5-Count. If you are qualifying a new shooter (goes for every time they get the dice again, too) you BET NOT A DIME ON THEM while you are counting up their rolls. Do not feel bashful. Many craps players only bet money on shooters who they prequalify.

2. You had no limited bet for yourself as you started warming up. I learned of the need for it by using a felt craps layout and real chips to simulate how I fair when playing alone on a craps table early in the morning. The presumption is: when you first start rolling you are sorta raw, not in your groove, so you need a "middle-size" single bet to employ so that if you 7out a lot at first, you won’t loose much money. The assumption follows that within 15-30 minutes you get warmed up. THE TEST OF THIS IS IN THE DICE RESULTS. Getting lots of 6s & 8s? Few to almost no 7outs other than the comeout roll? Good. Once in the groove, now bet whatever larger amount/strategy you routinely use when you are your own shooter of nice, CONTROLLED/INFLUENCED DICE. Use the chips and simulation to determine what a reasonable session should be like…how much to win before walking away (so the casino won’t win it all back!)…almost more importantly: how much of a loss to tolerate before aborting your session and coming back to try later. For me it is $50. Or 4 7outs consecutively. I felt at one point you ground down a losing session way below what i would have walked away from.

3. Do not let snide remarks from dealers/stickmen/boxmen/pit personnel affect your cheery, polite, but humble outward personality to be used when shooting. Most such remarks are not even worth a reply other than a cheerful smile and perhaps a "heartfelt" sorry, sir! Obviously you don’t have to mean any of it. But to match belligerance in like kind is craps suicide. It poses to the authority figure "who has the power here?" The answer is always: "them!" So wise people leave the issue untested. "I’m sorry" works real well for me. Once again, I don’t have to mean it, just have to say it.

Good luck in your journeys!

–lylastar

Ok thanks for the kind response. I don’t take critisim personal when we are on a forum dedicated to getting better at throwing dice.

I didn’t realize you aren’t supposed to bet anyone until after the 5 count. I thought you needed to play a passline bet for the casinos not to get skeptical of your system. If you do 5-6 players in a row not getting past the 5 count, you are just standing there never better. That was my thought. Feedback on this?

Good point on the warm ups. I did enjoy being at the table by myself and getting in the groove. Your tolerance for loss is just $50? That just seems so small to me. If you do 3X odds plus a passline bet, you are already at $20. if you do 1 $5 come bet with 3X odds, now you are up to 40. Doesn’t take much to lose $50.

I won’t take their rants personal again. It didn’t really affect me that much. I emphasized it on my post just to point out that it really existed. I thought it perhaps was a stretch of the imagination that they harass players. But, they definitely do.

I like making a pass line bet on player before me but no others. Do make other bets when I have a feeling.
Danny give me a call I could use some practice before going to Laughlin and Vegas .
Good Rolling. 😀 😀

Send me a PM . Thanks

Danny, I would really encourage you to take one of the classes. I had read all of the books and tried playing before taking the class and was still mainly losing. There are many things you learn in the class that you just don’t get from the book. For example, in the class you have a certified instructor watching your throw and correcting any deficiencies. Since taking the class my throw has greatly improved and I have full confidence I can beat the casino. Nothing is better than planning a trip to Vegas knowing your coming home with a larger bankroll! The class is well worth the money and you’ll meet Craps players from all over the country that share the same passion for the game. Best of luck!